the apocalypse

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victorinus said in post 559:

what greek word is used in gen 9:13?

Genesis was written in Hebrew.

In Genesis 9:13, the original Hebrew word translated as "bow" is "qesheth" (H7198), which could refer to the weapon called the bow (cf. Genesis 27:3). In the case of Genesis 9:13, "qesheth" was used to refer to a rainbow, which is curved just like a weapon-bow. Also, just as the bow in Genesis 9:13 was a "token"/symbol of the Noahic covenant (Genesis 9:12-17), so Revelation 6:2 can refer to a symbolic weapon-bow which is a token of Jesus' New Covenant/Testament (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24), which is the very Gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The first arrows shot forth from the gospel-bow would have been the early disciples of Jesus (Mark 16:15).

*******

victorinus said in post 560:

the guy on the black horse has a scale 6:5
-6:6 sounds like price controls . . .

In Revelation 6:5, the scales represent the selling of the expensive food in the famines of Revelation 6:6.

That is, just as Revelation 6:4 refers to a future war, which is the "sword" part of Revelation 6:8, so Revelation 6:6 refers to future famines, which are the "hunger" part of Revelation 6:8, when food will be so expensive that someone will have to spend an entire day's wages just to buy a quart of wheat (think of a loaf of bread). For when Revelation 6:6 says "A measure of wheat for a penny", the original Greek says a "choinix" of wheat for a "denarion". A denarion was a day's wages, and a choinix was probably about a quart.

victorinus said in post 560:

it reminded me of -
"to each according to his need"
from the father of communism . . .

Note that the early church was communalist (Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4:32 to 5:11; 2 Corinthians 8:14-15).

victorinus said in post 560:

it reminded me of -
"to each according to his need"
from the father of communism, the second greatest threat to christianity -

The future Antichrist will be a socialist, a believer in distributing the wealth (Daniel 11:24), but not necessarily to the extent of atheistic communism (in its theory, not in its practice, for example, in the former USSR, or in China, where the country's wealth was/is not evenly distributed among the party leaders and the populace), or to the extent of the Christian communalism which was (truly) practiced by the early church (Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4:32 to 5:11; 2 Corinthians 8:14-15).

victorinus said in post 560:

it reminded me of -
"to each according to his need"
from the father of communism, the second greatest threat to christianity -

Regarding "the second greatest threat to christianity", in the future, the greatest threat to Biblical Christianity will become Gnosticism.

Gnosticism is an ancient religious movement which says that everything material is inherently evil, while only that which is pure spirit can be good. Gnosticism teaches that all humans used to be pure spirit and dwelling in bliss from all eternity in a purely-spiritual heaven, called the "Pleroma", until by some mishap, humanity fell into the material universe and became trapped in fleshly bodies. Gnosticism reviles YHWH, the God of Biblical Christians, and the Creator of the material universe and of all fleshly bodies, as an evil, subordinate deity, a "Demiurge", who is keeping humans imprisoned and suffering in fleshly bodies and in the material universe.

Gnosticism became one of the main enemies of the early church, and it will become the greatest enemy of the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic. He will teach the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (1 John 4:3). And the Antichrist, like the Gnostics, will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will instead bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

--

Gnosticism has some core teachings in common with the current, major religions of Buddhism and Hinduism:

1. The material realm is unreal and evil. (Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Maya", from Hinduism.)

2. People must strive to escape the material realm completely, and enter a state which is wholly non-physical (Parinirvana in Buddhism, the Pleroma in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Brahman", from Hinduism.

3. The way for people to get free from their imprisonment within the material realm is through their minds attaining a certain level of enlightenment (Nirvana in Buddhism, Gnosis in Gnosticism). Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea, originally called "Moksha", from Hinduism.

4. The way for their minds to attain this certain level of enlightenment is through following the way of the Serpent (one legend of Buddhism says that the Buddha was given the true Buddhism by the King of the Serpents; and in Gnosticism, Gnosis comes from the Christ/the Serpent). Both Buddhism and Gnosticism got this mistaken idea of the enlightening serpent, originally called "Kundalini", from Hinduism. (Regarding the serpent in Genesis 3, Gnostics see him as the good guy, just as they see YHWH as the bad guy.)

The Bible contradicts each of the four points above:

1. The material realm is real, and was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). God himself is in the flesh (John 1:1,14, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). So there is nothing evil about matter in itself.

2. People must strive to attain to a resurrection (Philippians 3:11), in an immortal human body of flesh and bones, like the immortal human body of flesh and bones that Jesus Christ obtained at his resurrection on the third day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), and in which he will remain forever as Christians' fully-human mediator/high priest (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 2:16-17, Hebrews 7:24-26). His tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and when he returns, he will show the scars of the Crucifixion on his body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).

3. Resurrected people who have been truly enlightened/illuminated (Ephesians 1:18, Hebrews 10:32) by Jesus Christ (John 14:6-7, John 8:32, John 3:36) will remain in the material realm (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), ultimately living on a new earth with God (Revelation 21:1-4).

4. The Serpent, Satan/Lucifer, is the deceiver of the whole world (Revelation 12:9).
 
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victorinus said in post 562:

islam is the greatest threat to christianity
-
take a look at turkey

Regarding Turkey, note that in Revelation (Apocalypse), Jesus spoke of something which was in Turkey in the first century AD, centuries before Islam even existed:

Revelation 2:12 ¶And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 13:2b refers to when Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9) will give the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the Antichrist will have power over all the nations of the earth (Revelation 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus, if he would worship Satan (Luke 4:5-7). In the first century AD, as we saw above, Satan's earthly throne was in the city of Pergamos (Revelation 2:12-13), also called Pergamum (in what is now western Turkey). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the seven wonders of the world.

It may not be just a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the Antichrist is given power over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

*******

victorinus said in post 563:

the guy on the pale horse is death

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Here the original Greek word (chloros: G5515) translated as "pale" is translated in Revelation 8:7, Revelation 9:4, and Mark 6:39 as "green". For the word means "greenish" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), as it is based on a Greek word (chloe: G5514) which means "green".

Also, the future death of a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:8) will be a one-time event, just as the subsequent death of a third of the world (Revelation 9:18) will be a one-time event. Together, this will mean the death of one half of the world, the death of some four billion people, and during only the first half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.
 
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victorinus said in post 565:

can you name the riders of the white, red, and black horses?

Just as the rider of the fourth, "pale" ("greenish") horse has the generic name of "Death" (Revelation 6:8), so the first three riders in Revelation 6:2-6 might be given the generic names of "The Gospel", "A Future War", and "Future Famines".
 
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victorinus said in post 569:

there was a thousand year empire

Note that the thousand-year empire of Revelation 20:4-6 cannot have started yet, because those who will reign with Christ during it will have been physically resurrected in the first resurrection:

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

While there is the non-physical resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says that "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the first resurrection will be the same, physical type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the thousand years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be non-physically resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead will not be resurrected until sometime after the thousand years.

Also, the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be physical because it will not occur until Jesus' (never fulfilled) second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and the resurrection of the church which will occur at Jesus' second coming will be a physical resurrection, just like Jesus' physical resurrection on the third day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58, Philippians 3:20-21, Romans 8:23-25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).
 
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victorinus said in post 572:

there was a thousand year empire
-
its capital had
-seven hills 17:9

Note that the Bible makes no connection between the thousand-year empire in Revelation 20:4-6 and Revelation's symbolic harlot "Babylon" in chapters 17-18. For the harlot "Babylon" will be destroyed right before Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:3), whereas the thousand-year empire will not begin until after his second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

victorinus said in post 572:

its capital had
-seven hills 17:9

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Here the seven mountains (or hills) which support Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" can be the seven hills of Rome. For at the time of John the apostle in the first century AD, the Roman empire was the chief support for what Revelation's "Babylon" represents: all of fallen mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). At the same time, in Revelation 17:9 the seven mountains can also represent seven empires (Revelation 17:10). For an empire can be referred to symbolically as a mountain (Jeremiah 51:24-25, Daniel 2:35,44), and what Revelation's "Babylon" represents has been supported by seven empires: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam.

Also, in Revelation 17:10 the seven "kings" can refer to seven empires, just as the four "kings" in Daniel 7:17 refer to four "kingdoms"/empires, Daniel 7:23 referring to the fourth (i.e. the Roman empire).

--

Sometimes people ask: "Is not Babylon the U.S.?"

The corrupt aspects of the U.S. are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, but it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the U.S. For the U.S. just by itself does not reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the U.S. the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the U.S. the place where all Christian martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the U.S. just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the U.S. been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of fallen man's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Nonetheless, the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may currently be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the first leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the second leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the third leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the first century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all three legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon destroyed at Jesus' second coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what is sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And two nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against two major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap two terrorist nuclear bombs against two of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder three thousand innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the two cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

(Obama recently took a pass on a perfect opportunity for the U.S. to repent, when he visited Hiroshima. But could Trump and Pence visit Hiroshima, and, as Christians, publicly repent for the U.S., soon after they take office? Pray that they do so. Also, this would greatly help to mend Trump's world image, and might even gain him the Nobel Peace Prize, which Obama won for doing nothing at all.)

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of (an unrepentant) U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge, $20 trillion debt, or its huge economy or military. Its days as a superpower (but not as a big nation) will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist (who will not be from the U.S.) to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

--

Ultimately, the power behind the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), just as the controllers of the unsaved world have always been (and are still currently) Lucifer and his fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2-3). But there could also be a secret cabal of human world leaders in big business, finance, intelligence agencies, federal law enforcement, politics, the media/entertainment, the military, and religion, who know this fact, and so have secretly become worshippers of Lucifer in order to obtain from him all of the world's power, wealth, and pleasures that they can (cf. Matthew 4:9).

These Luciferians could have been working secretly together for some time (including through a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation) to prepare the way politically, economically, culturally, militarily, and religiously for a single Luciferian human world leader (the Antichrist) to take hegemony over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b) and, along with his miracle-working False Prophet, to bring the world into the conscious and open worship of Lucifer and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 19:20). God will let them succeed in this, but for less than four years (Revelation 13:5b, Daniel 12:11-12), before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, thousand-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

victorinus said in post 572:

its capital had
-seven hills 17:9
-many waters 17:1

Revelation 17:1 ¶And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

Here the "many waters" represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues" (Revelation 17:15) on which the woman sits:

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
 
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victorinus

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For the harlot "Babylon" will be destroyed right before Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:3), whereas the thousand-year empire will not begin until after his second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
the visions are not necessarily in chronological order based on the theory of recapitulation which is accepted by most commentaries since victorinus in the third century
-
it does not say Christ will reign during the thousand years
-
they will reign with Christ
 
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victorinus

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understanding the thousand years
-
there was a thousand year empire
-and-
it has all the pieces
-pieces that fit-
they may not fit your preconceived interpretation
-
our job is not to predict the future
-but-
to watch for what might be the fulfillment of prophecy
-
history can be used to interpret prophecy
 
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victorinus said in post 578:

can you make sense of 15:2?

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

In the original Greek of Revelation 15:2b, there is no "and" between "his mark" and "the number of his name". For one of the two options regarding receiving the Antichrist's mark will be to receive a representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), the other option being to receive his name (Revelation 13:17, Revelation 14:11c).

victorinus said in post 578:

can you make sense of 15:2?
-sea of glass mingled with fire
-victory over the beast

Regarding "victory over the beast", this brings to mind that it will be possible for Christians not to "get the victory" over the beast, just as it is possible that any saved person can ultimately have his name blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), he can ultimately lose his salvation and be cast into the second death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14 and 1 John 4:4 do not contradict this, for these verses do not give any assurance that every saved person will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that believers can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those believers who do overcome to the end will not have their names blotted out of the book of life, and will not be cast into the lake of fire.

But an example of saved people "overcoming" (Greek: nikao, G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in the very verse which you have brought forth, Revelation 15:2, which refers to saved people who will be willing to be killed by the Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their lives during the future worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured or killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and the gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), in order to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).
 
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