the apocalypse

[Bible2+]

victorinus said in post 598:

whoever wrote the apocalypse must be the greatest prophet

No, for see the second part of Luke 7:28.

*******

victorinus said in post 599:

john the baptist is the only one to refer to Jesus as the Lamb

In the Gospels. But note that the idea of Jesus as a lamb is found in the book of the prophet Isaiah (Acts 8:30-32, Isaiah 53:7) and in the writings of Peter the apostle (1 Peter 1:19).

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
first some questions
-
why does john mention his name three times in the first chapter?
-
why is the name of Jesus not mentioned in chapters 4 thru 11?
-
why are the churches not mentioned in the commentary by Victorinus?
-
why aren't the churches acknowledge in the church history written by Eusebius?

this is where it starts

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
first look at the commentary by victorinus
-you won't find the seven churches
-you won't find antipas
-you will find the seven churches paul wrote to
-you will find Jesus mentioned once which could have been added
-we know jerome was not happy with this commentary
-we know jerome modified it
-
it is easy to search
-
I believe he was looking at the first version written by the baptist

this is where it ended

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
so who is john writing to according to victorinus?
-the first epistle
-The following epistle
-The third order of the saints
-The fourth class
-The fifth class
-The sixth class
-the seventh association of the Church
-so-
why does he take the trouble to list the seven churches of paul
-but-
not the seven churches of the apocalypse?

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
eusebius has the same problem
-
he mentions most of the churches
-but-
does not associate them with the apocalypse
-
he mentions numerous martyrs
-but-
does not mention antipas
-
his church history is online
-
martyr will get 355 hits
antipas will get zero hits
revelation will get 35 hits
apocalypse will get 12 hits
Ephesus will get 22
Smyrna will get 15
Pergamus will get 2
Thyatira will get 0
Sardis will get 5
Philadelphia will get 4
Laodicea will get 13 (this is in syria)
-
nowhere are these churches associated with the apocalypse or revelation

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
we know a lot about john the baptist and john the apostle
-but-
not too much about john chrysostom
-so-
why is he important?
-
he is the only one who can say
-
"There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come"
-
we are not talking about kings -
we are talking about dynasties -
the seven dynasties of the roman empire

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
ford suggested john the baptist first wrote the apocalypse
-
most think the apostle wrote it
-
morosow thinks john chrysostom wrote it based on astronomy
-
the only reason the apocalypse is in the bible is because somebody was convinced the apostle wrote it
-
jerome was translating the bible about the same time chrysostom was in ephesus replacing exactly seven bishops and he was there at least 3 months
-prior to that time -
we don't know what the apocalypse looked like and there is no record that it was accepted by the church
-
we do know augustine wrote to jerome about his latin translation of the bible and that augustine did not quote the apocalypse until sometime in the early fifth century

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
so where do you think the originals were?
patmos
-or-
ephesus
how could chrysostom spend over three months in ephesus replacing seven bishops without looking for them?
-
he never quoted the apocalypse
he must not have believed the apostle wrote it
he may have found something to change his mind
he may have modified it
-at this time-
jerome was completing his latin translation
augustine had not started his city of God
-and-
didn't quote the apocalypse until chapter 7 of book 20

 

[victorinus]

I agree that when Jesus returns He will reign for a 1000 years

where does it say Jesus will reign for a thousand years?
-and-
who will reign at the end of a thousand years?

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
so where do you think the originals were?
patmos
-or-
ephesus
how could chrysostom spend over three months in ephesus replacing seven bishops without looking for them?
-
he never quoted the apocalypse
he must not have believed the apostle wrote it
he may have found something to change his mind
he may have modified it
-at this time-
jerome was completing his latin translation
augustine had not started his city of God
-and-
didn't quote the apocalypse until chapter 7 of book 20

understanding john
-
so what do we know about jerome?
-
he was in rome 382-385 where pope damasus asked him to do a latin translation which would become the vulgate
-
how much authority did he have?
who determined what that bible would look like?
-
jerome visited all the sites
-so-
he must have had access to all the books
-but-
there is no record of him visiting ephesus
-and-
from new advent on jerome we have
-
"in 398, revision of the remainder of the Latin version of the New Testament,"

 

[Guide To The Bible]

where does it say Jesus will reign for a thousand years?
-and-
who will reign at the end of a thousand years?

Revelation 20
New International Version
The Thousand Years

1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theya had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

[victorinus]

The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

are you with Christ?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

are you with Christ?

The 1000 year reign will begin when Jesus returns. Till then Christians on Earth are only with Him in Spirit, unless they have a visitation by Him or die and go to be with Him.

 

[victorinus]

<staff edit>
each sunday I am with Christ when I gather with others in His name
-so-
when I sing, I am singing with Christ
-
do you see any problem with that reasoning?

 

[victorinus]

The Bible clearly states that there will be prophets in the end times

where?

 

[Guide To The Bible]

where?

Acts 2:17
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Joel 2:28
"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

Malachi 4:5
"See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.

Revelation 11:3
And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
so what do we know about jerome?
-
he was in rome 382-385 where pope damasus asked him to do a latin translation which would become the vulgate
-
how much authority did he have?
who determined what that bible would look like?
-
jerome visited all the sites
-so-
he must have had access to all the books
-but-
there is no record of him visiting ephesus
-and-
from new advent on jerome we have
-
"in 398, revision of the remainder of the Latin version of the New Testament,"

understanding john
-
Theophilus was responsible for the exile of chrysostom
-Edward Gibbon described him as "...the perpetual enemy of peace and virtue, a bold, bad man, whose hands were alternately polluted with gold and with blood."
-he exchanged letters with jerome
-augustine also exchanged letters with jerome
-chrysostom did not but he did write to the pope
-many exchanged letters with jerome
-jerome is well respected and so is chrysostom
-jerome gave us the vulgate
-jerome clearly defined what the bible would be

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
first some questions
-
why does john mention his name three times in the first chapter?
-
why is the name of Jesus not mentioned in chapters 4 thru 11?
-
why are the churches not mentioned in the commentary by Victorinus?
-
why aren't the churches acknowledge in the church history written by Eusebius?

here is where my current discussion on who wrote the apocalypse starts
-
I argue that john the baptist wrote the first version
-and-
john the apostle wrote the second adding the churches -
I also believe john chrysostom had something to do with getting the apocalypse in the bible

 

[victorinus]

understanding john
-
Theophilus was responsible for the exile of chrysostom
-Edward Gibbon described him as "...the perpetual enemy of peace and virtue, a bold, bad man, whose hands were alternately polluted with gold and with blood."
-he exchanged letters with jerome
-augustine also exchanged letters with jerome
-chrysostom did not but he did write to the pope
-many exchanged letters with jerome
-jerome is well respected and so is chrysostom
-jerome gave us the vulgate
-jerome clearly defined what the bible would be

now talking about jerome and his vulgate

 

[victorinus]

now talking about jerome and his vulgate

understanding jerome
-
I have often said the church gave us the bible
-but-
it would be more accurate to say jerome gave us the bible
-jerome was commissioned by damasus
-damasus was speaking for the church
-they gave us the vulgate
-
the vulgate
-
"Independent and unauthorized or anonymous translations—especially of the New Testament—aided by the gross carelessness of scribes, made confusion worse confounded."

"it was prepared with great care by the greatest scholar whom Latin Christianity produced"
-
vulgate
-
"Likewise, Damasus' commissioning of the Latin Vulgate edition of the Bible, c. 383, was instrumental in the fixation of the canon in the West."
-
"Most valuable of all from a text-critical perspective is the Vulgate text of the Apocalypse, a book where there is no clear majority text in the surviving Greek witnesses."
-
"In The City of God (begun in 413, but Books 20-22 were written in 426)"
-
augustine quotes the apocalypse for the first time in chapter 7 of book 20 city of God