the apocalypse

victorinus

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understanding 666
-
let's start with his image
-
image shows up in eight places
-and-
six places with the word worship
-
paganism - roman empire -
what is not common knowledge
-the kaaba-
the holiest site of islam was a pagan shrine long before mohammed came along
-long after paganism of the roman empire was mortally wounded
 
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victorinus

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understanding 666
-
can you make sense of 15:2?
-sea of glass mingled with fire
-victory over the beast
-over his image
-over his mark
-over the number of his name
-
I can and it is all history
this discussion started on the previous page
-
understanding 666
-
now the number
-do you count it (13)
-do you calculate it (25)
I am with the 25 versions that calculate it
I am also inclined to believe the number is the same as the mark
-and-
the mark is much more interesting
 
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victorinus

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understanding 666
-
now the mark -
now nearly everything has a mark -
most often it is a date -
the date needs a calendar -
there are three significant calendars
-julian 44bc
-islamic 622
-gregorian 1582
-666-
of the julian calendar marked the beginning of islam
 
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victorinus

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understanding 666
-
early on in my research I searched daniel for the word 'number'
-and-
I found 9:2
-number of years-
that is when I started to look for what happened in the year 666 of the gregorian calendar
-nothing-
the historians do a good job of staying away from that year
-but-
I did notice that constantinople was being attacked by islam shortly after that date
-and-
I did notice gibbon's problem with dates - he had a very unusual way of marking the event
-
"Forty-six years after the flight of Mahomet from Mecca, his disciples appeared in arms under the walls of Constantinople" (the decline and fall)
-
later I found a calculator for the islamic calendar, put 46 in and got 666 on the gregorian calendar
 
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victorinus

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Matthew 4:4
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victorinus said in post 585:

now the sea of glass mingled with fire
-
this discussion started with the following question
can you make sense of 15:2?
please let me know
-if-
you ever find another explanation of it
-
the christians of constantinople used
greek fire to defend themselves from the muslims in 666
-
"The fire-ships of the Greeks were launched against them"
-
"this huge armada proceeded on a smooth sea"
-
It was a beautiful day and the Sea of Marmara was like a sheet of glass

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Here the "sea of glass" is the same as in Revelation 4:6. I.e., it is in heaven, just as the context of Revelation 15:2-4 is in heaven (Revelation 15:1, Revelation 15:5-8). For the people in Revelation 15:2 are faithful Christians who will have been killed by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13) and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

The "fire" part of Revelation 15:2 can be the same as the Spiritual fire of Revelation 4:5-6, i.e. reflected within the sea of glass. Or the "fire" part of Revelation 15:2 can refer to a golden color of the glass (cf. Revelation 21:18,21).

Also, note that Revelation 15:2 says "as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire". I.e. it is not to be taken literally, but only as a simile for how it appears.
 
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victorinus

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it is not to be taken literally
there is no such thing as a literal sea of glass
-but-
I do interpret everything literally if it makes sense
-
I understand you are a futurist
-so-
how do you interpret the image, mark, and number of 15:2?
-also-
how will you know when the future arrives?
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
first some questions
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why does john mention his name three times in the first chapter?
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why is the name of Jesus not mentioned in chapters 4 thru 11?
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why are the churches not mentioned in the commentary by Victorinus?
-
why aren't the churches acknowledge in the church history written by Eusebius?
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
some more questions
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why doesn't Eusebius mention the martyr Antipas?
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why did they mention ancient copies of the apocalypse?
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why didn't they agree on whether the apocalypse was written by the apostle?
-
there is only one answer that will satisfy all these questions
-
there were three versions of the apocalypse written by three different johns
-
I can explain
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
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more than one author of the apocalypse has been suggested by more than one commentary
-
to understand this you need only look at two books
-
-Ford, Josephine ”Revelation”
-Charles, R ”Studies in the Apocalypse”
-
both are available online
-and-
charles may be the most interesting book on the apocalypse
-
any serious student of the apocalypse must consider these two books
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
ford makes the case for john the baptist
-and-
charles presents the case it was first written in hebrew
-
this by itself means nothing
-but-
you begin to start thinking 'what if'
-and-
all of a sudden a lot of things start making sense
-
first you have to forget the circular argument that it is in because the apostle wrote it and if he didn't it doesn't belong in the bible
-
it is in there because it was meant to be regardless of who wrote it and we are now allowed to consider something that makes sense without discrediting the book
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
charles does a good job of presenting different theories even though he does not agree with them and even though some might be considered outrageous
-here is a good example
-"Morosow deduces the above date from two
alleged grounds. (1) The life of Chrysostom is
not intelligible save on the presupposition that
he wrote the Apocalypse. (2) The representa
tion of the heaven given in the Apocalypse
corresponds exactly to what it appeared from
the island of Patmos in the evening of September
30, 395 A.D., and the like appearance has never
been witnessed from this island since the
Christian era. To (1) no scholar who knows
the Greek of the Apocalypse and that of
Chrysostom could agree. "
-unfortunately I need chrysostom
to make some of my pieces fit,
yes, I think chrysostom is the third john.......more later
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
so who would be the second john?
-the one who added the churches and antipas to what was already written by the baptist to prepare the way for indeed the time was near
-it could be the apostle or it could be the other john known to be in ephesus around the same time
-the question that needs to be asked is why would either one add to what the baptist already wrote
-I think to show that Jesus was the Lamb for which john the baptist was preparing the way
-many followers of the baptist never accepted Jesus as the Lamb and have started religions that exist today
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
the apostle was a disciple of the baptist until Jesus came along so he might have some empathy for the followers of the baptist who didn't accept Jesus
-
adding the churches and Jesus to what the baptist wrote turned what was essentially a jewish apocalypse into a christian one
-
so why do we need a third john?
-
to get the apocalypse in the bible
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
so we need to look at three johns
-because-
there are three johns mentioned in chapter one
-one- who bore witness
- john the baptist - Revelation 1:2 - John 1:15
-two- to the seven churches
- john the apostle - Revelation 1:4
-three- your brother and companion
- john chrysostom - Revelation 1:9
-
let's start with john the baptist
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
start with what Jesus said about the baptist
-
Luke 7:28 (NKJV)
28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist
-so-
where are his prophecies?
why aren't they in the bible?
why didn't God make sure they got into the bible?
-
He did but He had to use His people to get it in there
-
all you have to do is read chapters 4 thru 11 independent of everything else
-
does that look like prophecy to you?
does that look like something john the baptist might write?
-
of course it does
 
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victorinus said in post 596:

Luke 7:28 (NKJV)
28 For I say to you, among those born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist
-so-
where are his prophecies?

In the Gospels.

For example:

Matthew 3:1 ¶In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 ¶But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

John 3:26 And they came unto John [the Baptist], and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
just search the bible for the word lamb
-
28 times in the apocalypse
13 times you will find the word Jesus
-and-
it looks like it was added later on
-
john the apostle is the only one who has john the baptist referring to Jesus as the Lamb
-
john the baptist is the only one to refer to Jesus as the Lamb
-
what can we learn from eusebius and victorinus
 
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victorinus

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understanding john
-
first look at the commentary by victorinus
-you won't find the seven churches
-you won't find antipas
-you will find the seven churches paul wrote to
-you will find Jesus mentioned once which could have been added
-we know jerome was not happy with this commentary
-we know jerome modified it
-
it is easy to search
-
I believe he was looking at the first version written by the baptist
 
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