Do you think Easter is Christian?

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Wgw

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What day Christ died matters not, just like what day and date He was born, matters not.

Then why care when we choose to commemorate these most joyful occasions?

The people who concocted a day of His birth are probably the very same people who concocted easter.

Well, if your thesis is that the Council of Nicea "concoted Easter," which is wrong, by the way, then no, as the decision to celebrate the feast of the Nativity on December 25th was taken later in the fourth century; previously this had been celebrated together with the Baptism of our Lord on January 6th. If memorynserves the Armenians still do it that way.

Nicea simply standardized the Paschalion based on what had become the practice in most of the Church; there was also a fear among the Christian bishops that the Jews had altered the basis on which they computed the date of 14 Nissan, which meant Quartodecimianism had become untenable.

There is actually substantial reason for believing that the Rabinnical Jews did change the basis of how the Judaic calendar was calculated after the destruction of the Temple; see the conflict between them and the Karaite Jews over this very issue.

The fact is, He died and rose from the dead, period.
And if He did not rise from the dead, there will be no eternal life for His people.

There is no argument there. God died in the flesh and was raised, trampling down death by death.

All the that the Scripture teaches is, "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 11:26,27)

There are no explicit instructions to make a particular date and day, just like there were none mentioned of His birth date and date or to celebrate His birthday.

There are also no explicit instructions to debate with chaps on Internet fora. Indeed, there are some verses that some people regard as implying debates of this sort are futile and beat avoided. I disagree, but herein we see the problem with a over-reliance on the so-called Regulative Principle.

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18,19)

The warning is explicitly clear. God does not take to lightly of those who do not take heed of His Word given.

"Whoever has ears, let them hear."

We have not added to sacred scripture.
 
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Chris Tan

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Then why care when we choose to commemorate these most joyful occasions?



Well, if your thesis is that the Council of Nicea "concoted Easter," which is wrong, by the way, then no, as the decision to celebrate the feast of the Nativity on December 25th was taken later in the fourth century; previously this had been celebrated together with the Baptism of our Lord on January 6th. If memorynserves the Armenians still do it that way.

Nicea simply standardized the Paschalion based on what had become the practice in most of the Church; there was also a fear among the Christian bishops that the Jews had altered the basis on which they computed the date of 14 Nissan, which meant Quartodecimianism had become untenable.

There is actually substantial reason for believing that the Rabinnical Jews did change the basis of how the Judaic calendar was calculated after the destruction of the Temple; see the conflict between them and the Karaite Jews over this very issue.



There is no argument there. God died in the flesh and was raised, trampling down death by death.



There are also no explicit instructions to debate with chaps on Internet fora. Indeed, there are some verses that some people regard as implying debates of this sort are futile and beat avoided. I disagree, but herein we see the problem with a over-reliance on the so-called Regulative Principle.



We have not added to sacred scripture.




If you want to defy the Word of God and teach the traditions and doctrines of man claiming that it is from the Holy Bible, please go right ahead. It's your soul that's at stake, not mine. For there's a special place that God has prepared and reserved for those who have added-on and taken away the precise Word of God given, basically for those who are not His.

My duty as a Christian is to simply tell the truth of what is said by you is not taught in the Holy Bible, period. And if you can have your say, so too can I. At least for this moment while it last.

I care not for what was concocted by the Council of Nicea. Remember, there were those who called themselves "disciples of Christ" when He was here on earth but they believe Him not when He taught. For it was Christ himself who warned His elect, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before." (Matthew 24:24,25)

As far as I am concerned, the Holy Bible is fully sufficient for learning and reproaching. And as Paul wrote, I whole-heartedly agree with him.

"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:15-17)

And if your justification for celebrating the "joyful occassions" commemorated by the Council of Nicea or Vatican, good for you. But do your soul a favor and not pass it off as something that's Christian, then there would be no issue at hand.
 
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Wgw

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If you want to defy the Word of God and teach the traditions and doctrines of man claiming that it is from the Holy Bible, please go right ahead.

Or alternately I can believe Him, amd trist in the instructions of His holy apostles and their lawful, canonical successors. 2 Corinthians 2:15, and all that.

It's your soul that's at stake, not mine. For there's a special place that God has prepared and reserved for those who have added-on and taken away the precise Word of God given, basically for those who are not His.

A good thing then that I haven't actually done that.

My duty as a Christian is to simply tell the truth of what is said by you is not taught in the Holy Bible, period.

Sacred scripture indicates when our Lord died and resurrected, and the celebration of Pascha is based on that.

And if you can have your say, so too can I. At least for this moment while it last.

I support religious freedom and freedom of speech. My own opinion, expressed on these grounds, is that we ought to take a dim view of chaps who like to argue that the vast majority of Christians are damned for wanting to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord at the time when it was agreed upon by the canonical ecclesiastical authorities.

I care not for what was concocted by the Council of Nicea.

The current Paschalion was not "concocted" at Nicea but predated it; Nicea merely adopted it as the standard. Since then, the Gregorian Calendar caused us to loose that standardization, but you can't win them all.

However, even if Nicea had produced the Paschalion ex nihilo as it were, given the vital role they played in defending te doctrine of the deity of our Lord and of the most hooy Trinity from the impieties of Arius, and given that the pre-eminent defender of the Trinitarian position at Nicea, St. Athanasius, also defined the 27 book NT canon, I would accept their Paschalion without question.

Whatever the faith of the 318 holy Fathers at Nicea is, I want to be my faith. Whatever the most pious and blessed St. Athanasius believed, I wish to believe, for to praise St. Athanasius is to praise virtue. And whatever St. Athanasius and the Nicene Fathers taught, I believe was also taught by the holy Apostles.

Remember, there were those who called themselves "disciples of Christ" when He was here on earth but they believe Him not when He taught. For it was Christ himself who warned His elect, "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before." (Matthew 24:24,25)

Indeed, and who were these people? Heretics like Simon Magus and Mani, who claimed to be Christ and who performed signs and wonders, and those who perpetuated their deceit, like Aeous, and who were utterly rejected and anathematized by the holy fathers of the Council of Nicea.

As far as I am concerned, the Holy Bible is fully sufficient for learning and reproaching. And as Paul wrote, I whole-heartedly agree with him.

Good. Take a gander at 2 Thessalonians 2:15, lr Galatians 1:8 in the original Greek then, sometime.

And if your justification for celebrating the "joyful occassions" commemorated by the Council of Nicea or Vatican, good for you. But do your soul a favor and not pass it off as something that's Christian, then there would be no issue at hand.

My Christian faith requires me to commemorate the birth, baptism, passion, resurrection, ascension and transfiguration of my Lord. And my church has never been subordinated to the Vatican, and was never a part of the Roman patriarchate.
 
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Der Alte

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A holy convocation with no servile work = a Sabbath. There is the weekly Sabbath, the 7th day, and there other Sabbaths, such as the 1st & 7th days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread

Your unsupported opinion! The 1st and 7th days of Unleavened Bread are never called a Sabbath in the OT or any Jewish writing as I have shown from the Jewish Encyclopedia. If God had intended for ULB1 and ULB7 to be Sabbaths He would have commanded that in scripture. The Jews have never considered these days a Sabbath because for ULB only preparing and cooking food was specifically permitted. On the weekly Sabbath no work of any kind is permitted,

The Feast of Trumpets is called a Sabbath

The Day of Atonement was a holy convocation with no work and it was also called a Sabbath

the 1st & 8th days of Feast of Tabernacles are referred to as both Holy Convocations and Sabbaths,

Certain groups are desperate to concoct 2 Sabbaths in Passion week to make scripture support false doctrine. That these other festivals are called Sabbaths does not make ULB a Sabbath.

The scripture speaks for itself

That is correct and scripture never specifically calls ULB1 or ULB7 a Sabbath. No work of any kind is permitted on the weekly Sabbath, preparing and cooking food are specifically permitted on ULB1-ULB7. As I have shown from the Jewish Encyclopedia the Jews have never considered ULB1-7 as Sabbaths.
 
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Dkh587

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Your unsupported opinion! The 1st and 7th days of Unleavened Bread are never called a Sabbath in the OT or any Jewish writing as I have shown from the Jewish Encyclopedia. If God had intended for ULB1 and ULB7 to be Sabbaths He would have commanded that in scripture. The Jews have never considered these days a Sabbath because for ULB only preparing and cooking food was specifically permitted. On the weekly Sabbath no work of any kind is permitted,



Certain groups are desperate to concoct 2 Sabbaths in Passion week to make scripture support false doctrine. That these other festivals are called Sabbaths does not make ULB a Sabbath.



That is correct and scripture never specifically calls ULB1 or ULB7 a Sabbath. No work of any kind is permitted on the weekly Sabbath, preparing and cooking food are specifically permitted on ULB1-ULB7. As I have shown from the Jewish Encyclopedia the Jews have never considered ULB1-7 as Sabbaths.

the Scriptures have shown and established that the 1st & 7th days of Unleavened Bread are sabbaths

It doesn't matter if you, me, or the Jewish Encyclopedia thinks that they're not sabbaths. The Torah reveals that it is

That's all there is to it...
 
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roamer_1

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Certain groups are desperate to concoct 2 Sabbaths in Passion week to make scripture support false doctrine. That these other festivals are called Sabbaths does not make ULB a Sabbath.

Then 'Palm Sunday' is off... Take your pick.

It was on Palm Sunday that the High Priest brought the perfect Lamb from Bethlehem to Jerusalem, to the hosannas of the people, standing along the street with palm fronds shaking and waving...

Then the Lamb is inspected for four days (including Sunday). In the afternoon (between the evenings) of the fourth day (the Day of Preparation), the Lamb is slaughtered - The last of the lambs to be slaughtered for the Passover feast.

Four days - including Sunday - Makes Wednesday the Day of Preparation. The High Priest slaughtered the Lamb, lifted his bloody hands out from his sides, looked up to heaven and cried out, "It is finished," around 3pm that day.

The High Priest then goes into seclusion (still consecrated) in a chamber deep beneath the Temple. He will see no one until the end of the following weekly Sabbath.

At the end of that Sabbath, precisely in the gloaming (dusk), the High Priest emerges (still consecrated, untouched), and proceeds out of the East Gate to the side of the Mt of Olives to mark (bind) the sheaves to be cut for the First Fruits offering to take place the following morning (Sunday). He retires to the Temple among his priests (friends, still consecrated, untouched).

Then the following morning (Sunday), the sheaves are harvested, the grain is separated and parched, the High Priest performing the First Fruits offering. Thereafter his consecration is complete, and he is seen out among the people.

Sunday + 4 days=Wednesday (Day of preparation).
3 Days and 3 nights in the belly of the earth =Saturday night, at dusk.
Still consecrated when Mary Magdalene saw him early Sunday morning, as he had not yet ascended to the father with the first fruits offering.
Thereafter, on the road, seen among the people.

Shabbat Shalom. Hope it helps.
 
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nomadictheist

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the Scriptures have shown and established that the 1st & 7th days of Unleavened Bread are sabbaths

It doesn't matter if you, me, or the Jewish Encyclopedia thinks that they're not sabbaths. The Torah reveals that it is

That's all there is to it...
Except that what the Torah clearly shows is that these days are not Sabbaths. In fact, it's almost as if God specifically avoids calling those specific days Sabbaths. Almost as though He knew that one day His son would be crucified on the day before the Sabbath, and people would come along trying to change that to another day, so He intentionally didn't use the word for any day within that feast.

This is the opposite of what you are saying. The Torah explicitly includes the word "Sabbath" for other holy days, so when the word "Sabbath" does not appear, why would we try to infer it?

And of course, the authors of the gospels record that Jesus was crucified on the day before the Sabbath, and then say "when the Sabbath was over, on the first day of the week..." Almost as though they want the reader to assume and believe that the body could not be treated with the oils and perfumes they prepared on the Sabbath day, so they rushed out early the next morning to do that.
Then 'Palm Sunday' is off... Take your pick.

It was on Palm Sunday that the High Priest brought the perfect Lamb from Bethlehem to Jerusalem, to the hosannas of the people, standing along the street with palm fronds shaking and waving...

Then the Lamb is inspected for four days (including Sunday). In the afternoon (between the evenings) of the fourth day (the Day of Preparation), the Lamb is slaughtered - The last of the lambs to be slaughtered for the Passover feast.

Four days - including Sunday - Makes Wednesday the Day of Preparation. The High Priest slaughtered the Lamb, lifted his bloody hands out from his sides, looked up to heaven and cried out, "It is finished," around 3pm that day.

The High Priest then goes into seclusion (still consecrated) in a chamber deep beneath the Temple. He will see no one until the end of the following weekly Sabbath.

At the end of that Sabbath, precisely in the gloaming (dusk), the High Priest emerges (still consecrated, untouched), and proceeds out of the East Gate to the side of the Mt of Olives to mark (bind) the sheaves to be cut for the First Fruits offering to take place the following morning (Sunday). He retires to the Temple among his priests (friends, still consecrated, untouched).

Then the following morning (Sunday), the sheaves are harvested, the grain is separated and parched, the High Priest performing the First Fruits offering. Thereafter his consecration is complete, and he is seen out among the people.

Sunday + 4 days=Wednesday (Day of preparation).
3 Days and 3 nights in the belly of the earth =Saturday night, at dusk.
Still consecrated when Mary Magdalene saw him early Sunday morning, as he had not yet ascended to the father with the first fruits offering.
Thereafter, on the road, seen among the people.

Shabbat Shalom. Hope it helps.
The problem with your chronology is that the Triumphal Entry (which is Palm Sunday) was 2 days before the Passover started. Matthew lays out this much in the gospels, because the day after the triumphal entry Jesus tells His disciples that it is "2 more days till passover, and the Son of Man must be lifted up..." (Matthew's telling). Mark also records that "2 days after this, it was the feast of unleavened bread." and that "On the first day, the day when they slaughtered the lamb, Jesus said to Peter and John "go and make preparations...""

So, first thing, the triumphal entry + at least 2 days = the first day of the feast of unleavened bread. From Matthew's chronology, we see at least 3 days, because it is the "next morning" before Jesus tells His disciples that it is "2 more days" till the passover.

Following that, Judas agrees to betray Jesus, and then we have Jesus celebrating the Passover meal on the "first day of the feast of unleavened bread." He was arrested that very night, and brought before Pilate the next day, early in the morning. He is then questioned by Pilate, though we are told that the Pharisees did not go into the Praetorium "lest they should be defiled," because they "wanted to eat the Passover."

It is this same day, that is, the second day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, that Jesus is crucified. It is also the day of Preparation, and the day before the Sabbath. This obviously cannot be referring to the 1st or the 7th day of the feast, because Jesus is brought to Pilate on the morning of the second day and crucified on the same day.

So, just to make the chronology we have in scripture clear:

(a) at least 2 to 3 days before ULB, Jesus comes to Jerusalem riding on a donkey (the triumphal entry, Palm Sunday)
(b) on day 1 of ULB, Jesus eats the passover meal with His followers
(c) on the evening of day 1 of ULB, Jesus is arrested in Gethsemane
(d) very early on the morning of day 2 of ULB, Jesus is brought before Pontius Pilate
(e) on the 9th hour of day 2 of ULB, Jesus died on the cross. He was taken down and buried as the Sabbath was approaching
(f) the day after the Sabbath, that is the "first day of the week," the women come to the tomb and discover that Jesus is risen

So not only does your "Sabbath" interpretation not fit into the OT prescription for ULB, it doesn't fit into the chronology given us in the gospels either.
 
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Dkh587

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Except that what the Torah clearly shows is that these days are not Sabbaths. In fact, it's almost as if God specifically avoids calling those specific days Sabbaths. Almost as though He knew that one day His son would be crucified on the day before the Sabbath, and people would come along trying to change that to another day, so He intentionally didn't use the word for any day within that feast.

This is the opposite of what you are saying. The Torah explicitly includes the word "Sabbath" for other holy days, so when the word "Sabbath" does not appear, why would we try to infer it?

And of course, the authors of the gospels record that Jesus was crucified on the day before the Sabbath, and then say "when the Sabbath was over, on the first day of the week..." Almost as though they want the reader to assume and believe that the body could not be treated with the oils and perfumes they prepared on the Sabbath day, so they rushed out early the next morning to do that.

The problem with your chronology is that the Triumphal Entry (which is Palm Sunday) was 2 days before the Passover started. Matthew lays out this much in the gospels, because the day after the triumphal entry Jesus tells His disciples that it is "2 more days till passover, and the Son of Man must be lifted up..." (Matthew's telling). Mark also records that "2 days after this, it was the feast of unleavened bread." and that "On the first day, the day when they slaughtered the lamb, Jesus said to Peter and John "go and make preparations...""

So, first thing, the triumphal entry + at least 2 days = the first day of the feast of unleavened bread. From Matthew's chronology, we see at least 3 days, because it is the "next morning" before Jesus tells His disciples that it is "2 more days" till the passover.

Following that, Judas agrees to betray Jesus, and then we have Jesus celebrating the Passover meal on the "first day of the feast of unleavened bread." He was arrested that very night, and brought before Pilate the next day, early in the morning. He is then questioned by Pilate, though we are told that the Pharisees did not go into the Praetorium "lest they should be defiled," because they "wanted to eat the Passover."

It is this same day, that is, the second day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, that Jesus is crucified. It is also the day of Preparation, and the day before the Sabbath. This obviously cannot be referring to the 1st or the 7th day of the feast, because Jesus is brought to Pilate on the morning of the second day and crucified on the same day.

So, just to make the chronology we have in scripture clear:

(a) at least 2 to 3 days before ULB, Jesus comes to Jerusalem riding on a donkey (the triumphal entry, Palm Sunday)
(b) on day 1 of ULB, Jesus eats the passover meal with His followers
(c) on the evening of day 1 of ULB, Jesus is arrested in Gethsemane
(d) very early on the morning of day 2 of ULB, Jesus is brought before Pontius Pilate
(e) on the 9th hour of day 2 of ULB, Jesus died on the cross. He was taken down and buried as the Sabbath was approaching
(f) the day after the Sabbath, that is the "first day of the week," the women come to the tomb and discover that Jesus is risen

So not only does your "Sabbath" interpretation not fit into the OT prescription for ULB, it doesn't fit into the chronology given us in the gospels either.

How was the Messiah in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights if he was buried as the 7th day Shabbat was approaching, which would be Friday, and he had already risen by the time Mary got there on Sunday morning?

Your misunderstanding of the Scripture is why you don't understand the timeline of events and take the Scriptures out of context. You are rejecting the Scripture: The 1st and 7th days of Unleavened Bread are Shabbats. You need to accept and understand this, otherwise the sequence of events will not make sense to you.

Wednesday was passover, he was buried Wednesday evening before sunset, and then the 1st day of Unleavened Bread began after sunset, which is a Shabbat. Mary and the others couldn't buy or prepare spices(that evening, nor the next day, Thursday). Remember, they could only prepare food. Buying and preparing spices for a body on any Shabbat is a violation of Torah

Mary had to wait until Friday to buy and prepare spices, and she spent all day preparing them. Notice in Luke 24, they brought the spices to the tomb on Sunday morning. Why did they wait? They spent all day Friday preparing them. They couldn't work the 7th day Shabbat(Saturday), which was the day AFTER they prepared the spices. Mary went on Sunday morning, which was the next day after the 7th day Shabbat

Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset
Thursday sunset to Friday sunset
Friday sunset to Saturday sunset

This is 3 nights

Wednesday afternoon to Thursday afternoon
Thursday afternoon to Friday afternoon
Friday afternoon to Saturday afternoon

That's 3 days..

Yahusha was resurrected sometime around sunset at towards the end of Shabbat. HalaluYah!
 
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nomadictheist

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How was the Messiah in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights if he was buried as the 7th day Shabbat was approaching, which would be Friday, and he had already risen by the time Mary got there on Sunday morning?

Your misunderstanding of the Scripture is why you don't understand the timeline of events and take the Scriptures out of context. You are rejecting the Scripture: The 1st and 7th days of Unleavened Bread are Shabbats. You need to accept and understand this, otherwise the sequence of events will not make sense to you.

Wednesday was passover, he was buried Wednesday evening before sunset, and then the 1st day of Unleavened Bread began after sunset, which is a Shabbat. Mary and the others couldn't buy or prepare spices(that evening, nor the next day, Thursday). Remember, they could only prepare food. Buying and preparing spices for a body on any Shabbat is a violation of Torah

Mary had to wait until Friday to buy and prepare spices, and she spent all day preparing them. Notice in Luke 24, they brought the spices to the tomb on Sunday morning. Why did they wait? They spent all day Friday preparing them. They couldn't work the 7th day Shabbat(Saturday), which was the day AFTER they prepared the spices. Mary went on Sunday morning, which was the next day after the 7th day Shabbat

Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset
Thursday sunset to Friday sunset
Friday sunset to Saturday sunset

This is 3 nights

Wednesday afternoon to Thursday afternoon
Thursday afternoon to Friday afternoon
Friday afternoon to Saturday afternoon

That's 3 days..

Yahusha was resurrected way before Mary even got to the tomb. HalaluYah!

The Bible disagrees with you:

Matthew 26 said:
Now on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?”

18 And He said, “Go into the city to a certain man, and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, “My time is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”’”

19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.

Mark 14 said:
Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?”

You cannot deny scripture on the basis of a single verse. As has been noted by many biblical scholars, three days and three nights counts also half or partial days. Considering when we see Jesus eating the passover (on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread), we know that your account cannot be true. Jesus was alive and eating the Passover meal with His disciples on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. That same evening He was betrayed. The next morning (the second day) He was handed over to Pilate.

This is what the Bible says.
 
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Dkh587

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The Bible disagrees with you:





You cannot deny scripture on the basis of a single verse. As has been noted by many biblical scholars, three days and three nights counts also half or partial days. Considering when we see Jesus eating the passover (on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread), we know that your account cannot be true. Jesus was alive and eating the Passover meal with His disciples on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. That same evening He was betrayed. The next morning (the second day) He was handed over to Pilate.

This is what the Bible says.

Where are the 3 nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning?

Look, I can't keep going back and forth. at this point, enough scripture has been provided by both you and me

If you take an honest and unbiased look at Scripture, you will grasp what I'm saying. I understand where you're coming from. You are holding on to incorrect teachings and traditions
 
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nomadictheist

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You clearly do not understand the Scriptures

Where are the 3 nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning?
To answer this, rather than say that both Matthew and Mark were wrong about the day that Jesus and His disciples ate the passover dinner, the night that Jesus was arrested, and the day that He was crucified, I will rely on the scholars who have examined this, starting with the church fathers as early as the 2nd century B.C.

What they say, and I trust that because of their studies and knowledge of Jewish culture, was that in Jewish culture anything happening before Sunset on a day was reckoned to include the entire day, including the night before, because the day started the previous evening. Therefore, Jesus, being put in the tomb Friday before sunset, would have been reckoned to be in the grave Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night, rising early Sunday morning before the women got to the tomb.

This is certainly not an unreasonable explanation, and having no personal knowledge of the reckoning of the Jews at that time, I will trust those who have studied it. But I do not accept that scripture is wrong when it says that Jesus ate the passover meal with His disciples on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, or when it records that He was crucified on the Sabbath-eve, that is Friday, and rose again on the first day of the week, that is Sunday.
 
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nomadictheist

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Where are the 3 nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning?

Look, I can't keep going back and forth. at this point, enough scripture has been provided by both you and me

If you take an honest and unbiased look at Scripture, you will grasp what I'm saying. I understand where you're coming from. You are holding on to incorrect teachings and traditions
I did take an honest and unbiased look at scripture. I didn't write that Jesus took the passover with His disciples on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread - Matthew and Mark did. I merely quoted them. Are you implying that Jesus was already dead when He took the passover meal with His disciples, or are you just suggesting that Matthew and Mark are both wrong?
 
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civilwarbuff

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To answer this, rather than say that both Matthew and Mark were wrong about the day that Jesus and His disciples ate the passover dinner, the night that Jesus was arrested, and the day that He was crucified, I will rely on the scholars who have examined this, starting with the church fathers as early as the 2nd century B.C.

What they say, and I trust that because of their studies and knowledge of Jewish culture, was that in Jewish culture anything happening before Sunset on a day was reckoned to include the entire day, including the night before, because the day started the previous evening. Therefore, Jesus, being put in the tomb Friday before sunset, would have been reckoned to be in the grave Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night, rising early Sunday morning before the women got to the tomb.

This is certainly not an unreasonable explanation, and having no personal knowledge of the reckoning of the Jews at that time, I will trust those who have studied it. But I do not accept that scripture is wrong when it says that Jesus ate the passover meal with His disciples on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, or when it records that He was crucified on the Sabbath-eve, that is Friday, and rose again on the first day of the week, that is Sunday.
Even today there is legal support of that view.....
 
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Der Alte

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Where are the 3 nights between Friday afternoon and Sunday morning?

Look, I can't keep going back and forth. at this point, enough scripture has been provided by both you and me

If you take an honest and unbiased look at Scripture, you will grasp what I'm saying. I understand where you're coming from. You are holding on to incorrect teachings and traditions

How can you tell someone else to "take an honest and unbiased look at Scripture" when you don't do that yourself?
 
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Dkh587

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To answer this, rather than say that both Matthew and Mark were wrong about the day that Jesus and His disciples ate the passover dinner, the night that Jesus was arrested, and the day that He was crucified, I will rely on the scholars who have examined this, starting with the church fathers as early as the 2nd century B.C.

What they say, and I trust that because of their studies and knowledge of Jewish culture, was that in Jewish culture anything happening before Sunset on a day was reckoned to include the entire day, including the night before, because the day started the previous evening. Therefore, Jesus, being put in the tomb Friday before sunset, would have been reckoned to be in the grave Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night, rising early Sunday morning before the women got to the tomb.

This is certainly not an unreasonable explanation, and having no personal knowledge of the reckoning of the Jews at that time, I will trust those who have studied it. But I do not accept that scripture is wrong when it says that Jesus ate the passover meal with His disciples on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, or when it records that He was crucified on the Sabbath-eve, that is Friday, and rose again on the first day of the week, that is Sunday.

let's take a closer look at the book of Mark
Mark 14:12 KJV
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

The Passover is not killed on the first day of Unleavened Bread(the 15th day)

Exodus‬ ‭12:3, 6‬ ‭KJV
“Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Leviticus 23:5-6 KJV
In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is YAHUAH's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto YAHUAH: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread

you do not kill the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened Bread, it is killed on the evening of the 14th day, which is the night BEFORE the Day of Passover.

For whatever reason, the writers are grouping the Passover with the First day of Unleavened Bread. I cannot offer an explanation for that. But we know that according to the Torah, these are 2 separate days, so these verses are not written/translated correctly.

Passover, and 1Unleavened Bread Day are 2 different days

A day in scripture begins at sunset. This is why they took YAHUSHA's body down before sunset, because that would be the evening of the First day of Unleavened Bread, which is a Shabbat. The day that follows is the same day. At the next sunset, that day will end, and a new day begins

Read the Creation story back in Genesis. Night came first, and then day. Darkness, then light.


Passover begins after sunset at the end of the 13th

The day OF Passover comes the next day, AFTER the night, when the lamb was slaughtered and eaten... This was the day that YAHUSHA was crucified and nailed to the tree. The day of Passover. He ate the Seder with His disciples the night before his sacrifice, which was the evening of Passover...

the next day, the day OF Passover he was nailed to the tree. Then, after sunset, the evening of the First Day of Unleavened Bread began

I'm done responding. I've posted enough witnesses to crush any doctrine or tradition you're trying to hold on to. Those who have eyes to see will see..
 
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nomadictheist

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let's take a closer look at the book of Mark


The Passover is not killed on the first day of Unleavened Bread(the 15th day)





you do not kill the Passover on the 1st day of Unleavened Bread, it is killed on the evening of the 14th day, which is the night BEFORE the Day of Passover.

For whatever reason, the writers are grouping the Passover with the First day of Unleavened Bread. I cannot offer an explanation for that. But we know that according to the Torah, these are 2 separate days, so these verses are not written/translated correctly.

Passover, and 1Unleavened Bread Day are 2 different days

A day in scripture begins at sunset. This is why they took YAHUSHA's body down before sunset, because that would be the evening of the First day of Unleavened Bread, which is a Shabbat. The day that follows is the same day. At the next sunset, that day will end, and a new day begins

Read the Creation story back in Genesis. Night came first, and then day. Darkness, then light.


Passover begins after sunset at the end of the 13th

The day OF Passover comes the next day, AFTER the night, when the lamb was slaughtered and eaten... This was the day that YAHUSHA was crucified and nailed to the tree. The day of Passover. He ate the Seder with His disciples the night before his sacrifice, which was the evening of Passover...

the next day, he was nailed to the tree
Your quote from Exodus describes the first Passover. This is not an instruction for how Passover rites were to be conducted in the future, but for this particular (first) passover.

But aside from that, both Matthew and Mark say that the supper took place on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. BOTH.

Mark is the only one that adds "when they killed the passover lamb." But he still says that Jesus and His disciples made their preparations on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Josephus, who came from a priestly family and lived in the first century A.D., notes that the Passover lamb was killed between the hours of 3 and 5 in the afternoon (the 9th hour and the 11th hour by the reckoning of that time) - before sunset. Other sources agree that on the afternoon of the 14th, the lamb was slain, and then on the evening, when the 15th began, the Feast of Unleavened Bread began. In other words, the lamb was not slain after sunset.

So, I would say that Mark and Matthew got it right when they said that Jesus disciples made preparation on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. And that Mark got it right when he said Jesus was crucified on Friday.

So why does Mark allude to the passover lamb being killed? In keeping with the rest of the text, there are only two possible conclusions.

The first is that he is saying that the lamb had already been killed previous to that, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread had already begun.

The second, and I believe less likely, is that at some point Jewish custom had changed to kill the lamb on the first day of ULB.

But either way, both specifically say that it was the first day of ULB. We know, thanks to careful records of historians, that lambs were slain before sunset on the 14th day, meaning at the end of the 14th day, and not after sunset on the 14th day, or at the beginning of the 14th day. So if we believe that Mark's reference means that they took the passover meal on the evening after the lamb was slain, this would then be the beginning of the 15th day, or the first day of ULB, which would put Jesus' arrest, suffering, and death in the midst of a holy day.

Making the preparations on the first day, it would also make sense that Judas would not go out until after sunset, because from sunset on the 15th day (that is, the beginning of the 15th day) to sunset on the 16th day (that is, the beginning of the 16th day), they would have been unable to bring a criminal to the Sanhedrin to be charged.

What the scripture says is what the scripture says, and your claiming to know the traditions of the Jews better than those who lived around the time that it actually happened will not change that. Jesus and His disciples took their meal on the first night of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, as the gospels declare.
 
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