random person said in post 6688:
Jesus' death and resurrection was at the end of the "world". Hebrews 9:26
Note that Hebrews 9:26 (like 1 Corinthians 10:11) saying that the "end" of the world had come in the 1st century AD is like someone today on a Friday saying that "the week
end is here!", in that both mean that multiple "days" have yet to come. That is, the "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' 1st coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). But the last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' 1st coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).
random person said in post 6688:
The Messianic Kingdom does not come with observation. Luke 17:20
Luke 17:20b-21 means up until Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Luke 17:24), when the kingdom will come physically to the earth, with observation (Matthew 24:30).
Presently, the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 12:22-24), and is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Romans 14:17, Luke 17:21). But in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10). It will also be physically (Luke 22:30, Matthew 19:28) on the earth (Revelation 5:10), first during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21), and then on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8).
Jesus' kingdom is Israel (John 1:49, John 12:13-15, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). And at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7), and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11) to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a). And Jesus will fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all of the still-living, unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David. For they (along with all other still-living, unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
After Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Zechariah 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Zechariah 14:8-21), during which time the Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). For the church is Israel (Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10).
random person said in post 6688:
The Messianic Kingdom is not of this world. John 18:36
John 18:36 means that Jesus' future, physical reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29) won't be of this world in the sense that it won't come by worldly means, such as by the church fighting physically to establish it (2 Corinthians 10:3-4, Matthew 26:52, Matthew 5:39). Instead, it will come only by Jesus returning physically from heaven to establish it (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21). Also, after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), a new earth will be created and God's kingdom will continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).
random person said in post 6688:
The Messianic Kingdom was raised during the reign of the Roman Caesars (the kingdom of the fourth beast - Rome) and has stood ever since time immemorial. Daniel 2:44
Daniel 2:44a refers to the setting up of the physical aspect of the kingdom of God subsequent to Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19 to 21:8). Daniel 2:44b refers to the returned Jesus and the physically resurrected church not leaving the earth to other people, but remaining on the earth and ruling the surviving unsaved nations with a rod of iron during the millennium, and figuratively breaking some of them in pieces like a potter's vessel (Psalms 2:7-9, Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6). "And it shall stand for ever" (Daniel 2:44c) refers to the physical aspect of the kingdom continuing on a new earth forever (Revelation 21:1-8, Revelation 22:5), after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:5).
random person said in post 6688:
The Messianic Kingdom was raised during the reign of the Roman Caesars (the kingdom of the fourth beast - Rome) and has stood ever since time immemorial. Daniel 2:44
Regarding "these kings" in Daniel 2:44, they aren't the ancient Roman Caesars, even though you are right that the 4th beast was the Roman Empire.
That is, Daniel 2:44, as well as its immediate context (Daniel 2:42-43), might best be understood in the light of Daniel 7, where the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). The 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria.
The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Arab Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.
But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one federation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.
And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).
The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist federation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This federation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).
This Baathist federation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.
random person said in post 6688:
Jesus received His kingdom when He ascended back up to heaven in 30/33 AD. Daniel 7:13-14 (Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64)
Regarding Daniel 7:13-14, note that Daniel 7 doesn't necessarily refer to the Ancient of days and the Son of man (who is Jesus: e.g. Matthew 16:13) as being different people. For the description of the Ancient of days in Daniel 7:9 matches the description of the Son of man in Revelation 1:13-14. And the judgment of people occurring in front of the throne of the Ancient of days in Daniel 7:9-10 matches the judgments of people occurring in front of the throne of the Son of man in 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Revelation 20:11-15 (cf. John 5:22).
Also, when Daniel 7:13 says that the Son of man came "to" the Ancient of days, the original Chaldean word (ad: H5705) translated as "to" corresponds to a Hebrew word (ad: H5704) which can be translated as "when" (Psalms 71:18, Jonah 4:2). So Daniel 7:13b can refer to "when" the Ancient of days will come, which will be when the Son of man comes with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13), which will be at his (never fulfilled) 2nd coming to the earth (Matthew 24:30), which will be when the Ancient of days will come to the earth immediately after the tribulation to set up the millennial aspect of his kingdom on the earth with the physically-resurrected church (Daniel 7:21-22, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). So when Daniel 7:13b says "they brought him near before him", that can refer to angels bringing the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) before the returned Son of man/Ancient of days to be judged and given to the burning flame (Daniel 7:11b, Revelation 19:20).
The Son of man can be the Ancient of days because the Son of man is "from everlasting" (Micah 5:2c, John 8:58, John 17:5).
random person said in post 6688:
Jesus received His kingdom when He ascended back up to heaven in 30/33 AD. Daniel 7:13-14 (Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64)
Regarding Matthew 26:64, it (like Mark 14:62) doesn't mean that Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 19:7 to 20:3) had to have occurred while the high priest and the other Christ-rejecters Jesus was addressing in Matthew 26:64 were still alive. Instead, Matthew 26:64 means that even though those Christ-rejecters will have been dead for some 2,000 years, and their souls will be in Hades, they will still see the 2nd coming when it occurs in our future. For the souls of the dead in Hades are able to see things (Luke 16:23).
random person said in post 6688:
Jesus received His kingdom when He ascended back up to heaven in 30/33 AD. Daniel 7:13-14 (Matthew 24:30; Matthew 26:64)
Regarding Matthew 24:30, it refers to Jesus' future, physical, visible return to the earth in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. For the whole point of Matthew 24:30, just as the whole point of the rest of Matthew 24, is to distinguish Jesus' physical, future, 2nd coming to the earth from the physical, future coming of false Christs (Matthew 24:4-5,24-30).
Similarly, Zechariah 14:4 confirms that Jesus will return physically to the earth.
For Zechariah 14 is about Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming with all his saints (Zechariah 14:5b; 1 Thessalonians 3:13b), and about the subsequent millennium, when he will reign on the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8-21, Micah 4:1-4). Zechariah 14:3 refers to the 2nd-coming battle of Revelation 19:19-21. And Zechariah 14:4 shows that at his 2nd coming, Jesus will physically land on the Mount of Olives, just as at the end of his 1st coming, he physically ascended from the Mount of Olives. Acts 1:11-12 says that Jesus will return in like manner as he left.
Before Jesus returns, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 the world's armies will gather together at a staging area at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). They will then move south and pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-5, Revelation 19:19-21). Jesus will then remain on the earth as King (Zechariah 14:9), and the unsaved people left alive on the earth (Matthew 24:40) will be forced to come up to Jerusalem and worship him annually (Zechariah 14:16-19). Jesus and the physically resurrected church will rule the unsaved survivors of the nations with a rod of iron during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6).
Also, Zechariah 12:2-14 refers to the same future time as Zechariah 14.
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It is sometimes claimed that Zechariah 14 was fulfilled at Jesus' 1st coming. But Jesus' 1st coming wasn't the day of the Lord (Zechariah 14:1), for that won't begin until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2). Also, Jesus' 1st coming didn't occur right after Jerusalem had been defeated by all nations gathered against it (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't fight the nations (Zechariah 14:3) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). It will be at his 2nd coming that Jesus will fight the nations (Revelation 19:11-21) and then land on the Mount of Olives, just as he had ascended from the Mount of Olives at the end of his 1st coming (Acts 1:11-12).
Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't split the Mount of Olives in two (Zechariah 14:4), creating a valley through which the Jews in Jerusalem could flee from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:5) as Jesus waged war against all the nations of the world which had just pillaged Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2-5). Also, at Jesus' 1st coming, he didn't come with all of the saints (Zechariah 14:5b). That will happen only at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 3:13b). Also, at Jesus' 1st coming, he didn't make it so that Jerusalem was light at night (Zechariah 14:6-7). And he didn't make water flow out from Jerusalem in summer and winter, half of the water flowing toward the Dead Sea and the other half toward the Mediterranean Sea (Zechariah 14:8). And he didn't make himself King over the earth (Zechariah 14:9). And he didn't flatten the topography for miles around Jerusalem and raise its elevation (Zechariah 14:10). And he didn't make it so that Jerusalem wouldn't be destroyed (Zechariah 14:11). And he didn't send an amazingly rapid, flesh-eating plague against the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem, so that their flesh consumed away while they stood on their feet (Zechariah 14:12).
Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't cause the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem to fight against each other (Zechariah 14:13). And he didn't make Judah fight at Jerusalem and win for itself the wealth of all the nations surrounding it (Zechariah 14:14). And he didn't make the transportation animals used by the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem suffer the horrible flesh-eating plague (Zechariah 14:15,12). And unsaved survivors of all nations which had just pillaged Jerusalem didn't come to Jerusalem annually at the feast of tabernacles to worship Jesus (Zechariah 14:16). And he didn't send drought and plague against the nations which refused to come to Jerusalem to worship him (Zechariah 14:17-19).
Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't make Jerusalem so holy that even the bells on the horses in Jerusalem had the words "Holiness Unto The Lord" engraved on them (Zechariah 14:20). And he didn't make it so that the animal-sacrifice boiling pots in the temple in Jerusalem became as holy as the bowls before the altar (Zechariah 14:20). And didn't make it so that every pot in Jerusalem and Judah became holiness to the Lord (Zechariah 14:21). Instead, at his 1st coming, Jesus left unbelieving Jerusalem spiritually desolate (Luke 13:35). Also, at his 1st coming, Jesus didn't make it so that there would be no more Canaanites in the temple in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:21).
random person said in post 6688:
What is the sign in heaven in Matthew 24:30? It is tied into all judgment being given the Son (John 5:22)?
That's right.
For Matthew 24:30 is Christ's coming to judge the world. But it is only the temporal judgment of the world in Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, which will happen before the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. Matthew 24:30 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) the eternal judgment of the world in Revelation 20:11-15, which won't happen until sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).
When Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the physically resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).
random person said in post 6688:
The sign on earth is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and the passing away of the Old Covenant (Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 10:9).
Regarding Hebrews 8:13, it means that when the prophet Jeremiah in the 6th century BC prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 about the 1st century AD making of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6), which wouldn't be according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32, Romans 7:6), Jeremiah's prophecy, as soon as it was made, had immediately made the letter of the Mosaic-law covenant "old" and headed inexorably toward a future extinction (Hebrews 7:18-19).
But this extinction occurred not in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a), and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.
Also, while the apostles of the church asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), he didn't tell them that the end of
the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).
Also, this has nothing to do (as is sometimes claimed) with the never-fulfilled passing away of heaven and earth (2 Peter 3:7,10-12), or the subsequent creation of a new heaven and earth. For just as the heaven and earth which "were of old" (2 Peter 3:5-6) were the literal 1st "heaven" (the sky/atmosphere, in which the birds fly: Genesis 1:20) and the literal "earth" (the dry land) which God created in Genesis 1:7-10, and which "perished" in Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6, Genesis 6:13-21), so the heaven and earth "which are now" (2 Peter 3:7), and which will perish in our future by fire instead of flood (2 Peter 3:7-12), are the earth's present atmosphere and surface. And so the new heaven and earth, which the church is still waiting for (2 Peter 3:13) -- because the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:1) won't be made until after the never-fulfilled events of Revelation chapters 6 to 20 -- will be a new atmosphere and surface for the earth.
That is, the "old" heaven and earth perished at the time of Noah's flood (2 Peter 3:5-6), which was over 1,000 years before the Old Covenant Mosaic law was established in Exodus. The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments was abolished the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). Matthew 5:18 refers to the literal heaven and earth "which are now" (2 Peter 3:7), and which will be literally burned up in our future (2 Peter 3:7-12).
So the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 are physical, just as the heaven and earth in 2 Peter 3:10,12 are physical. 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the New Testament where the Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the New Testament where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all.
Also, Matthew 5:18 didn't mean that heaven and earth had to pass away before the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments could be abolished, but that Jesus had to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's 1st coming (Luke 24:44-46; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53) before he could abolish the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (for both Jews and Gentiles, of all times) on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).
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random person said in post 6690:
do you believe flesh and blood will inherit the kingdom of god (heaven)?
1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
This refers to people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it) like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).
1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which will be on the new earth, in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).
1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom, which will be on the present earth. For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the 2nd coming.
Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will even
enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house and stay there for awhile without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom in their mortal bodies without inheriting the kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).
Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the 3rd-heaven aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For at the time of Revelation 11:11-12, at one point during the tribulation, the 2 witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the 2 witnesses will ascend up to the 3rd heaven in their resuscitated mortal bodies, it doesn't say that they will inherit the 3rd heaven, just as when Paul says that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the 3rd heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the 3rd heaven, and just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the 3rd heaven.
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random person said in post 6691:
jesus spoke in length about this in matthew 23; luke 11:47-51; luke 13:33-35; luke 17:20-37; luke 19:41-44; and luke 23:27-31.
Regarding Luke 19:41-44, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD didn't fulfill Luke 19:44. For the stones of the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Instead, Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).
random person said in post 6691:
but now begs the question did physical israel lose its hope and the promise of the resurrection according to acts 23:6; acts 24:15; acts 26:6-7; acts 28:20?
Regarding Acts 24:15, note that it didn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that a resurrection was "about to" happen from the viewpoint of men in the 1st century AD. For Acts 26:22-23 employs the Greek word "mello" (translated as "should") to refer even to Moses' prophesying of the 1st coming of Christ (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 3:22-24), which prophesying occurred some 1,400 years before Christ's 1st coming.
Also, when and how in your view did the resurrection of the unjust happen? (Acts 24:15)
random person said in post 6691:
but now begs the question did physical israel lose its hope and the promise of the resurrection according to acts 23:6; acts 24:15; acts 26:6-7; acts 28:20?
Note that these scriptures refer to the hope of literal, physical resurrection from the dead (Acts 26:8, Acts 23:6b, Acts 24:15, Romans 8:23-25).
This brings to mind that believers need to be careful not to be deceived by the Gnostic/antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7), and that believers won't forever be in the flesh. For the Bible shows that on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4), Jesus Christ wasn't resurrected as a disembodied spirit, but in his human, flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39, Hebrews 2:17). That is why his tomb is empty (Matthew 28:6), and why he still has the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (John 20:25-29). And Luke 24:39 didn't stop being true once Jesus ascended into heaven. For he will remain forever the human mediator/high priest of believers (1 Timothy 2:5, Hebrews 7:24-26), in human flesh, just like they are in human flesh (Hebrews 2:17). And when he returns, he will still have the wounds of the crucifixion on his resurrection body (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14).
Gnosticism mistakenly thinks that flesh is evil in itself, and that only pure spirit can be good. But Jesus proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, for he has been made flesh (John 1:1,14, Romans 1:3, Luke 24:39), and remains wholly without sin (Hebrews 4:15). Genesis also proves that flesh isn't evil in itself, but was created by God as something very good (Genesis 1:31). Adam and Eve were flesh, for they were the progenitors of the human race alive today. And they were immortal before they fell into sin, for it was only their falling into sin which made them become mortal (Genesis 2:17). So Adam and Eve started out as immortal flesh. And so the future resurrection (if dead) or changing (if alive) of saved people into immortal flesh bodies like Jesus has (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39, Romans 8:23-25) will be God allowing them to partake of the original, immortal-flesh condition of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden before their fall into sin.
Also, beware the more-general Gnostic lie that even the entire physical universe is evil in itself, and that only a purely-spiritual heaven can be good. For this lie is employed by Gnosticism to wrongly revile the Creator God YHWH as an evil, tyrant, lesser god, whom Gnosticism says created the physical universe to be the foul prison house of human spirits, whom Gnosticism says by some mistake fell from bliss in a purely-spiritual heaven down into the physical universe, to become trapped in suffering, fleshly bodies. No doubt the future Antichrist will employ this lie as part of his utter reviling of YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). But Genesis shows that our physical world was created by YHWH as something very good (Genesis 1:31).
And the Bible shows that the whole plan of Creation wasn't that humans, who are both flesh and spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23, Luke 24:39), would become purely-spiritual ghosts and float forever on clouds in a purely-spiritual heaven with God, but that God would become both flesh and spirit like man (John 1:1,14), and that God would ultimately come down from heaven to live with man on a future, new earth (Revelation 21:1-4), just as God had walked on the earth in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve (Genesis 3:8). Also, on the new earth, saved humanity will be allowed to eat from the literal tree of life (Revelation 2:7, Revelation 22:2,14), just as Adam and Eve hadn't been forbidden to eat from it in their unfallen state (Genesis 2:9,16,17). So, with regard to saved people, God will completely undo the effect of the fall of Adam and Eve. Saved people will be able to live in an earthly, physical paradise forever with God (Revelation 2:7), just as Adam and Eve and their descendants might have done had not Adam and Eve fallen into sin.
So beware the Gnostic lie. Beware the Antichrist.
random person said in post 6691:
what does scripture say about fulfillment?
daniel 12:2; daniel 12:5-7; daniel 12:9-13
Regarding Daniel 12:2, it will occur at the church's physical resurrection at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For some in the church will lose their salvation at Jesus' 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).
Also, regarding the immediate context of Daniel 12:2, the preceding verse, Daniel 12:1, will occur right after the future, tribulation events of Daniel 11:15-45, and will include the very last part of the tribulation, when the surviving Jews in Jerusalem (who could have been protected by the 2 witnesses during the preceding 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign: Revelation 11:3-13, Revelation 13:5-18) will be attacked immediately before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). This final attack will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which the Jews will be saved from (Jeremiah 30:7) at the 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:5).
random person said in post 6691:
what does scripture say about fulfillment?
daniel 12:2; daniel 12:5-7; daniel 12:9-13
Regarding Daniel 12:5-7 and Daniel 12:9-13, the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' 1st coming and his crucifixion for our sins.
So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' 1st coming and the writing down of Revelation (in 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).
Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).
random person said in post 6691:
what does scripture say about fulfillment?
daniel 12:2; daniel 12:5-7; daniel 12:9-13
matthew 5:17-18
Regarding Matthew 5:17-18, it means that Jesus came the 1st time not to abolish the prophecies in the Mosaic law and the Old Testament prophets regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's 1st coming, but to fulfill all those prophecies (Luke 24:44-48; e.g. Acts 3:22-26, Isaiah 53). Matthew 5:17-18 can't mean (as is sometimes claimed) that Jesus came not to abolish the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, for he did come to do that, on the Cross (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19). Also, Matthew 5:17-18 can't mean that Jesus came to fulfill the letter of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments, for he couldn't possibly have done that. For example, some of those commandments applied only to women after childbirth (Leviticus 12:4-8), or to wives suspected of adultery by their husbands (Numbers 5:19-31).
As the Christ (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-46), the mediator of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-9), Jesus had the divine authority to contradict the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments and replace them with his own, even better, New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:38-44, Matthew 19:7-9, John 8:5-7), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 4:2). And as the Christ, Jesus had the divine authority to allow his disciples to break the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments (Matthew 12:1-8).
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random person said in post 6694:
c'mon.... the body is sown terrestrial ...raised celestial...
The glorious heavenly, or "celestial", bodies referred to in 1 Corinthians 15:40 are objects like the literal sun, moon, and stars in 1 Corinthians 15:41, which are gloriously bright physical objects which reside in the 2nd "heaven" which is outer space (Deuteronomy 4:19).
When obedient believers' bodies will be raised/resurrected into "spiritual"/heavenly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44-49), they will still be fleshly bodies, but no longer "natural" (i.e. no longer mortal) fleshly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44,53). Instead, they will be immortal fleshly bodies like Jesus was raised/resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), by the spiritual/heavenly power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11,23-25, Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 15:44).
random person said in post 6694:
the soul is raised from sheol... psalms 30:3 & hosea 13:14...
There are 2 literal hells, one temporary and one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23) and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of unsaved people go when they die, and where they are tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus' 1st coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died, but the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).
After Jesus fulfilled the gospel by dying for our sins on the Cross and rising physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), he went down into Hades and preached the fulfillment of the gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6), and then drew the souls of obedient believers there up with him when he ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient believers go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).
At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be physically resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), all unsaved people of all times will be physically resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13), and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels in fire and brimstone forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46) and Tophet in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33).
Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside one wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8). Saved people will go forth from New Jerusalem to witness the eternal torment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).