Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Psalm3704 posted in post 5831:

The tribulation is called THE TIME of “Jacob’s Trouble” Jeremiah 30:7.

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Actually, the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation, for believers will be in the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Psalm3704 posted in post 5831:

After the Church is COMPLETE, and TAKEN to HEAVEN in the Pre-Trib Rapture . . .

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Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

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The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine some kids were at a summer camp, and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow, there is going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on the hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say that there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water, and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes, we're all going to start on the hike that I told you about, so make sure that you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. And after the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure that the third kid was assigned day after day only to the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

Psalm3704 posted in post 5831:

It’s God’s character to DELIVER His own (righteous ones) from His judgments. Enoch, Noah, Lot, and Rahab are a few.

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Regarding Enoch, note that he wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. The way that we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26).

And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work farther back: If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

Psalm3704 posted in post 5831:

The true Church will NOT see the antichrist revealed.

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Actually, it will. For 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). And this is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the 2nd coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

Psalm3704 posted in post 5831:

But for the Church, the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against us, which PROVES that “the saints” of the tribulation CANNOT be the Church.

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Note that Matthew 16:18 isn't contradicting that evil forces can prevail against the church physically. For just as Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10), so evil forces will physically overcome the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will prevail physically against believers (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Instead, Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus himself (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus (Psalms 107:16), when, after his resurrection, he went down and liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

iamlamad said:

Common sense shows that all these things don't happen at this place of mention. some judging takes place far later, as in the battle of Armageddon and the white throne judgment. Therefore common sense tells me to look and see if this could be a prophecy of future events, rather than the events themselves. For example, how many times did John tell us, "babylon the great is fallen is fallen...?

Isaiah 21
Rev. 14
Rev 18

So which of these does the "fallen fallen" really happen? I think NONE Of them - or perhaps the last one: they are prophecy of the future event. I think it is all accomplished by Rev. 19.

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Lamad said #5722


Common sense shows that all these things don't happen at this place of mention. some judging takes place far later, as in the battle of Armageddon and the white throne judgment. Therefore common sense tells me to look and see if this could be a prophecy of future events, rather than the events themselves. For example, how many times did John tell us, "babylon the great is fallen is fallen...?


Isaiah 21

Rev. 14

Rev 18


So which of these does the "fallen fallen" really happen? I think NONE Of them - or perhaps the last one: they are prophecy of the future event. I think it is all accomplished by Rev. 19.


It should be obvious my contention was, that 2 Tim 4:1 & Rev 11:18 are the same event tied together by the wording of the passages. 2 Tim “judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom” , Rev 11:18 “the time of the dead, that they should be judged”and 1 Corin 15:23-24 was tied to the above two by the words “Christ's at his coming” and “Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God”.


If you believe that is incorrect commonsense tells me you should have refuted my claim by showing at least a scriptural reason why that is not so. For example you could have said the judgement Paul wrote of in 2 Tim 4:1 takes place where ever you believe it goes on the endtime timeline and the judgement of the dead John wrote of takes place where ever you believe it takes place.


I pointed out specific reasons for my belief you offer what you call “common sense”. It appears that “common sense” is based on your belief your interpretation of Revelation is correct. I believe the point I raised is just one more proof from scripture your interpretation of the order of Revelation is incorrect.


It is clear 2 Tim is at the end because it is at the appearing of Christ and His kingdom.

It is clear 1 Corin 15 is at the end because the passage says it is at the end, at Christ’s coming and when He delivers up the kingdom.

It is clear to me that the 7th trumpet is at the end because

1. the mystery of God IS finished

2 the kingdoms ARE become the kingdoms of our Lord

3. The dead ARE judged


To simply say the events of Rev 10 & 11 must happen in a different place on the time line is your opinion and it is up to you to show why that is so.


Your question about “babylon is fallen” is a good one, I believe it is clear the angel John wrote of in Rev 14 is the same angel making the same proclamation he wrote of in Rev 18. Rev 14 is the first mention in the context of other events and Rev 18 is his recounting of the angels proclamation with more specific details of the falling of Babylon. I believe “overlapping events” is a good way to describe many of the things happening in the book of Revelation.


As I recall you have yet to offer a good explanation for John’s description of Christ’s coming on a cloud in Rev 14:14.


If you want to disagree with me great, I welcome the debate just do it with the bible and not just declarations of “common sense”.

Douggg said:

Those verses are looking at the conclusion to history. They are not pinpointing pretrib, postrib, midtrib the time of the rapture/resurrection in 1thessalonian4:13-18

There will be judgment of the saints for rewards. There will be judgment of the unsaved for rejecting Jesus. There will be judgment of them who had never heard the gospel. But not at one setting.

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Dougg said in post 5725


Those verses are looking at the conclusion to history. They are not pinpointing pretrib, postrib, midtrib the time of the rapture/resurrection in 1thessalonian4:13-18


There will be judgment of the saints for rewards. There will be judgment of the unsaved for rejecting Jesus. There will be judgment of them who had never heard the gospel. But not at one setting.


I believe they are pinpointing the time of the judging of the dead 2 Tim 4:1 (at His appearing) and Rev 11:18 (at the seventh trumpet).


In the case of Rev, John saw this in a vision he used the words “are become” in 11:15 and “is come” in 11;18. See my response to Lamad.

BABerean2 said:

Joh_10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1191-daniels-prophecy-of-antiochus-epiphanes

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Yes. The feast of dedication is Chanukah. You know Christmas time. Unleavened bread Spring. Tabernacles fall. Dedication of the temple winter. Christmas, Chanukah are in winter.

Bible2+ said:

Actually, the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation, for believers will be in the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

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The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine some kids were at a summer camp, and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow, there is going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on the hike, right?" And a second kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a third kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say that there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the first kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the second kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the third kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day at the morning camp meeting, the first kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the third kid brought his sturdy hiking boots and a big canteen of water, and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes, we're all going to start on the hike that I told you about, so make sure that you've got everything you need". The first kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the second kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the third kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the third kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. And after the hike was over, he made sure to reward the third kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure that the third kid was assigned day after day only to the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the first and second kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

Regarding Enoch, note that he wasn't translated into the 3rd heaven so that he wouldn't have to go through the Flood (along with righteous Noah and his family in the ark: 2 Peter 2:5; 1 Peter 3:20). For Enoch (Noah's great grandfather) was translated 669 years before the Flood. The way that we can know this is first by knowing when Noah's flood happened:

Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. This is based on verses in the Bible which make it possible to work back from the year BC that Solomon's temple began to be built. Historians say that it began to be built about 966 BC. And the scriptures show that it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kings 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Exodus 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Genesis 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Genesis 25:26).

And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Genesis 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was about 70 (Genesis 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Genesis 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Genesis 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Genesis 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Genesis 11:18). And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Genesis 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Genesis 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Genesis 11:12). And Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood (Genesis 11:10).

So all we have to do is add up the numbers of years above to see that Noah's flood occurred about 2458 BC. Then, to determine when Enoch was translated, we need to work farther back: If Arphaxad was born 2 years after the Flood, then Arphaxad was born about 2456 BC. And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Genesis 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Genesis 11:10, Genesis 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Genesis 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see that Enoch was born about 3492 BC. He was translated when he was 365 (Genesis 5:23-24), so he was translated about 3127 BC, which was 669 years before the Flood. Adding these 669 years to Enoch's age of 365, we find that Enoch was 1,034 years old at the time of the Flood. This means that had he stayed on the earth, he would have almost certainly died from old age before the Flood came (cf. Isaiah 57:1). For Methuselah (Noah's grandfather) was the longest-living person who stayed on the earth, and he died at the age of 969 (Genesis 5:27), the same year as the Flood. For Enoch was born about 3492 BC, and Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Genesis 5:21). So Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and he died 969 years later, which was about 2458 BC, the same year as the Flood.

Methuselah could have died of old age right before the Flood started. God could have waited to bring the Flood until after Methuselah died of old age and was buried. Lamech (Noah's father) had already died some 5 years before the Flood. For Methuselah was born about 3427 BC, and Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Genesis 5:25). So Lamech was born about 3240 BC, and he died 777 years later (Genesis 5:31), which was about 2463 BC, 5 years before the Flood.

Actually, it will. For 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). And this is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the 2nd coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

Note that Matthew 16:18 isn't contradicting that evil forces can prevail against the church physically. For just as Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10), so evil forces will physically overcome the church during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will prevail physically against believers (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Instead, Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus himself (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

That is, Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus (Psalms 107:16), when, after his resurrection, he went down and liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

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You were only able to attempt a debunk on just 5 this time? Even I can debunk 5 post-trib rapture theories........if 5 can ever be found. Please find 5!

Another new list of 50. Knock yourself out B2. Isn't copy and paste is fun?

*50 More Reasons Why the Rapture Must Happen Before the Tribulation

1. The bride has time to PREPARE her wedding trousseau, GETTING READY for married life. The Church remains true to Jesus, PREPARING TO MEET HIM SOMEDAY.

2. At the home of his father, the groom PREPARES A DWELLING PLACE for himself and his bride. Jesus returned to His Father’s house in heaven at the time of His ascension. He promised His followers that while He’s there, He PREPARES MANSIONS for us to dwell in.

3. At THE END of the period of separation, the bridegroom WILL RETURN--usually at night--to TAKE his bride TO COME LIVE WITH HIM. The groom, his best man, and other male escorts will leave the father’s house and do a torch-light procession to the home of the bride. The bride DOES NOT KNOW THE TIME of her bridegroom’s coming. As a result, the groom’s arrival is preceded by a shout. The TIME when Jesus will DESCEND into the air, to catch His Bride up to Himself is UNKNOWN. Therefore, the Church is exhorted to BE READY. Someday, the SHOUT which precedes Him will reach our ears and we’ll RISE UP TO MEET HIM.

4. After the groom receives his bride (together with her bridesmaids), the enlarged group RETURNS to the HOUSE of the GROOM’S FATHER. Jesus and His Church will be united in HEAVEN after the Rapture, at the HOUSE of GOD, THE FATHER.

5. The bride and groom, shortly after their arrival at the house of the groom’s father, are escorted by other members of the wedding party to THE BRIDAL CHAMBER. The bride wears a veil so her face is not seen. The marriage is consummated. A little later, it’s ANNOUNCED to the wedding guests, AT WHICH TIME the guests have a party for SEVEN DAYS. Once in heaven, Jesus and His Church will have our marriage sealed, and it’s ANNOUNCED in heaven. Then SEVEN DAYS of celebration (corresponding to the SEVEN YEARS of the tribulation) ensues.

6. While the SEVEN days of the celebration takes place, the bride and groom remain HIDDEN in the bridal chamber, called the “huppah.” AFTER the SEVEN DAYS are finished, the groom comes OUT OF HIDING, bringing his wife with him, and her veil is removed so all can see her. At that time, the marriage is ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD AT LARGE. When the SEVEN YEARS of the tribulation is finished, Christ and His Bride will LEAVE THEIR CHAMBERS. Jesus will RETURN to the earth in His Second Coming to set His feet on the Mt. of Olives, and His Bride (the Church) will ACCOMPANY Him! At that time, the marriage is ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD AT LARGE, and people will see the face of the Bride, as she RULES and REIGNS with Jesus.

7. The MARRIAGE of Christ and the Church is seen in Romans 7:4. “…that you should be married to another--even to Him Who is raised from the dead.”

8. In 2 Corinthians 11:2, we, the Church, are “espoused to one husband,” that we may be presented as “a chaste virgin to Christ.”

9. In James 4:4, the Church is warned about the lusts of the flesh and love of the world which makes us “adulterers and adulteresses”--a people who turn against their wedding vows (by refusing to keep themselves separate from such things).

10. The Apostle Paul continually reminds the Church of THE HIGH COST of our PURCHASE PRICE, the BLOOD of Jesus. Paul continually teaches of our COVENANT WITH CHRIST, by which we, His Bride, are SET APART and SANCTIFIED.

11. There is clearly a “coming of Jesus” FOR His “Bride” BEFORE His Second Coming to earth. During the tribulation, His Bride is ALREADY in heaven, and WILL RETURN to earth WITH Him at the Second Coming.Revelation 19:7-10 and Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.


12. A surprising FACT--the Church will NOT be the vehicle through which the Gospel reaches the entire world!

13. The Church INDEED preaches the GOSPEL of Christ’s FINISHED WORK in His death and resurrection (inviting people to ACCEPT Jesus into their hearts and lives--to become members of the LIVING and TRUE Church). However, the LAST age of the Church is pictured as one of weakness and complacency--falling away from true doctrine. The spirit of Laodecia. Revelation 3:14-22. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. (This disproves what the “Kingdom Now” and “Dominion” groups teach.)

14. Scripture declares that Elijah will come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Malachi 4:5-6. Elijah is ONE of the TWO special prophets who will minister to Israel in the near future.

15. Elijah will be joined by a SECOND special prophet, who will minister in Israel with the same miracles that Moses performed--under God’s guidance and power. These are the TWO WITNESSES seen in Zechariah 4:1-14 and in Revelation 11:3-13. They will declare God’s testimony during the dark days of the tribulation, and antichrist will be furious with them.

16. “And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14. Jesus spoke these words, but WERE they MEANT for the Church? NO! These words were spoken in THE MIDDLE of a teaching where Jesus described THE TRIBULATION and ISRAEL’S place in it.

17. Revelation 7:3-8 shows 144,000 sealed SERVANTS of God. These young men will preach the Gospel during the tribulation. They number 12,000 from specific TRIBES OF ISRAEL--and are ministers who will PROCLAIM THE GOSPEL during the awful time when judgments fall from God’s throne. Nothing can harm these servants, because God’s protection is upon them (they are sealed). The RESULT of their PREACHING is A GREAT MULTITUDE seen in Revelation 7:9-12 and Revelation 15:2-4, a group of martyred souls who sing THE SONG OF MOSES. An Israeli TESTIMONY is in sight here--NOT a Church testimony.

18. Further EVIDENCE of the Gospel reaching EVERY NATION in the world is shown in Revelation 14:6. AN ANGEL flies through the midst of heaven (the sky) to PREACH to all those who dwell on the earth. Again, this is NOT the Church.

19. The Everlasting Gospel and the Gospel of the Kingdom WILL be preached in the tribulation--which is God bringing HIS MERCY in the MIDST OF JUDGMENT (but the Church is NOT the ministers). Furthermore, the MESSAGE of the Gospel of the Kingdom is that Jesus will soon RETURN to earth (after the tribulation) to set up His Kingdom in Jerusalem for the Millennium--so the SERVANTS will say, “Prepare to meet your King.” Jesus’ return to THE EARTH will also answer the petition, “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”


20. The Rapture relates to the Church. The Second Coming relates to Israel.

21. The Rapture occurs for Jesus’ heavenly people, the Church (Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 12:22-24). The Second Coming is for God’s earthly people, Israel.

22. At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His people, the Church (John 14:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) At the Second Coming, Jesus comes WITH His people, the Church. Jude 1:14-15. Revelation 19:14. Zechariah 14:5.

23. The Rapture OPENS the door for the “man of sin” to rise to power. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8. The Second Coming DOOMS the “man of sin.” Revelation 19:20.

24. The Rapture is IMMINENT; it can occur at ANY moment. The Second Coming MUST be PRECEDED by very many DAYS and SIGNS and EVENTS.

25. No one knows the EXACT DAY of the Rapture (it is UNKNOWN)-- Matthew 24:38-39, Matthew 25:13,Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, Hebrews 10:24-25. We are exhorted to be WAITING and WATCHING. BUT anyone who enters the “tribulation” will be able to COUNT SPECIFIC NUMBERS of DAYS, and KNOW the DAY when Jesus will come to earth in His Second Coming. Daniel 9:27 (seven years, 84 months, 3520 days). Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 12:14. Revelation 13:5 (three and a half years, 42 months, 1260 days). There’s also added days in Daniel 12:11-12 (1290 and 1335 days), which probably relates to THE TIMING of a CELEBRATION of the Feast of Tabernacles, plus the JUDGMENT of the Sheep and Goat nations (this might not be fully understood until THE TIME arrives, as Daniel 12:9 indicates).

26. After the Rapture, the Church will proceed to the Judgment Seat (the Bema) of Christ to receive REWARDS. 2 Corinthians 5:10. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20. 2 Timothy 4:8. 1 Peter 5:4.Revelation 2:10 b. Revelation 3:11. At the Second Coming there will be a Judgment of the Sheep and Goats.Matthew 24:31-46.

27. The Rapture pertains to God’s mercy and grace. The Second Coming pertains to God’s wrath.

28. At the Rapture, Jesus is the Morning Star-- 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 2:28 and Revelation 22:16 --(which PRECEDES the sunrise of the New Day). At the Second Coming, Jesus is the Sun of Righteousness--Malachi 4:1-2 --(which shines IN the New Day).

29. The Rapture is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, the Church, at THE END of the New Testament-- 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation 22:16. The Second Coming is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, Israel, at THE END of the Old Testament-- Malachi 4:1-2.

30. At the Rapture, the Church MEETS Jesus in the air in the clouds. At the Second Coming, Jesus sets His feet on the earth at the Mount of Olives.

31. At the time of the Rapture, the Mount of Olives will REMAIN UNCHANGED. At the Second Coming, the Mount of Olives IS DIVIDED, forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

32. At the time of the Rapture, Church saints are TRANSLATED (bodies instantly changed to immortal without passing through a route called death). NO saints are translated at the Second Coming when Jesus places His feet back on earth.

33. At the time of the Rapture, the world is NOT JUDGED for sin--but instead SINKS DEEPER into sin. At the Second Coming, the world IS JUDGED at the return of Jesus when He deals with the Armageddon scene.

34. The Rapture of the Church is a deliverance FROM the DAY OF WRATH. The Second Coming of Jesus is a deliverance FOR those who suffered under severe tribulation.

35. The Rapture is always IMMINENT (meaning NO prophecy must be fulfilled BEFORE it can occur). There are VERY SPECIFIC SIGNS AND PROPHECIES (which MUST HAPPEN) before the Second Coming!

36. The Rapture is ONLY for the SAVED. The tribulation and the Second Coming deals with the ENTIRE WORLD.

37. In the Rapture, Jesus calls His Church UP TO HEAVEN--He comes FOR His Church. In the Second Coming, Jesus returns to earth WITH His Church. Revelation 19:7-8. Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

38. The gathering of “saints” AFTER the tribulation is done by ANGELS. The gathering of the Church to Jesus in the Pre-Trib Rapture is done by THE LORD HIMSELF.

39. BOTH the righteous and the wicked CANNOT be taken FIRST. In the Rapture, the RIGHTEOUS are TAKEN--the WICKED and UNREADY are LEFT BEHIND. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11. In the “tribulation” and at the Second Coming, the WICKED are TAKEN/DESTROYED in the JUDGMENT, and the RIGHTEOUS are LEFT BEHIND to enter the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:49-50.

40. In the Rapture, Jesus RECEIVES us to Himself. It will NOT be US “receiving” Him when He returns in the Second Coming. John 14:2-3. If the Rapture occurred in Revelation 19, we’d go up TO MEET (or RECEIVE) Him and IMMEDIATELY RETURN to earth with Him.

41. If we rose to meet Him and immediately returned to earth with Him in Revelation 19, WHERE is the Judgment Seat of Christ (the Bema) and the wedding ceremony for the Bride? The NEXT THING that happens AFTER the Second Coming is the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats.

42. The Judgment of Gentile nations follows the Second Coming (Matthew 25:31-46). This scripture shows that BOTH the SAVED and the LOST are in NATURAL bodies (which would be IMPOSSIBLE if there were a translation, or Rapture, at the Second Coming).

43. IF the TRANSLATION (Rapture) took place at the same time as the Second Coming, there would be NO NEED to separate the sheep from the goats. The act of TRANSLATION would provide that separation.

44. IF believers were TRANSLATED (Raptured) at the Second Coming, and unbelievers were DESTROYED by the final tribulation judgment, there would be NO ONE LEFT IN THEIR FLESH TO POPULATE THE WORLD in the Millennium.

45. Surviving tribulation saints are NOT translated (into immortal bodies) at the Second Coming of Christ, but carry on with ordinary activities, like farming, construction, and giving birth. Isaiah 65:20-25.

46. ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture view allows for a TRULY LITERAL INTERPRETATION of the Old and New Testament passages regarding the tribulation. The SYMBOLS (which are used) are DEFINED throughout the Bible and are APPLIED in a LITERAL WAY.

47. ONLY the Pre-Tribulation view clearly DISTINGUISHES between Israel and the Church (and HOW God deals with each)--making it NECESSARY for an interval of time between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

48. In the seven letters to the Churches in Revelation, Jesus says SEVEN TIMES “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.” When we get to the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:9, Jesus says “If any man have an ear, let him hear.” He LEFT OUT the words “what the Spirit says unto the Churches”--and did so BECAUSE there are NO CHURCHES on earth in the tribulation.

49. In the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:6, the antichrist is given a mouth to blaspheme God, His name, His tabernacle and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN. Who are those who DWELL in heaven? The Raptured Church.

50. The Holy Ones (“saints” in the Church) are ALREADY with Jesus in heaven and will return to earth with Him. Zechariah 14:5. Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.






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BABerean2 said:

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On this guy's first attempted debunk, does he know the earthquake in Japan 2011 was not the rapture?

If he thinks the rapture happened in 2011, does he realized he got left behind since he uploaded the video in Aug 2014?





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BABerean2 said:

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760901.htm

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The thing is this throws the whole timeline off

BABerean2 said:

Joh_10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1191-daniels-prophecy-of-antiochus-epiphanes

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oh so you believe Daniels already fulfille. Like a preterist or something.

BABerean2 said:

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760901.htm

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Anyway the reason people are confused is because they don't know what I know. Either way, like I keep saying, the next major prophetic event is a Great War outlined in Haggai 2:20-23

BABerean2 said:

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d760901.htm

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This article does say that the length of month was as it is now 29.5 days. In the days of Daniel and Revelation. It states that the time should be symbolic. It is incorrect, it should not be symbolic. God iss speaking to us through this. The anti christ will confirm a covenant according to a calendar and it won't be a pre flood calendar. It will be the Hebrew ecclesiastical calendar. God is not constrained by time. He sees tomorrow as if it were the present. Are we to suppose He didn't know what the calendar was going to be like today?

keras said:

Be assured, God will do it!
The terrible Day of the Lord's wrath will 'shake the earth's very foundations', Isaiah 13:13
Be aware and be prepared. BTW, do not expect to be raptured at this time. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11

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Sorry, you guys have no way of knowing what I know. I know the 2 witnesses are alive and aware of their indentity. I know that Zerubbabel was a type of 1 of the witnesses. Zechariah 3:8 you (Joshua) and your friends that sit before you are a sign! Hello! 3 verses later you have Zechariah 4. This has NOTHING to do with second temple era. Joshua the high priest was a type of the Branch (Christ) and Zerubbabel a type of the witness. Zechariah 4 and Haggai 2 have messages to the witness. Zechariah 4:6 received in 2003. Haggai 2:20 received 12/6/2015...or the 24th day of the 9th month 2015. You need to examine Haggai 2:20-23 because that's our next prophetic event. The second temple era was a type and shadow of these end times.

iamlamad said:

It seems you just don't believe what John wrote:
The two witnesses will testify for 1260 days. That is like cast in vanadium steel and cannot be altered. It is God's words. How then can you POSSIBLY think God's word would be in error?

I see DAYS in that calendar: that is all that is needed...1260 of them in a row. Please notice that God DID NOT tell us that the month count would start of the first of some month! God did not tell us this would be TODAY's Hebrew calendar, or today's ANYBODY calendar.

To get to the end of the 42 month count, just multiply 42 by 30 and count the days. However, a 42 month count just possibly may not be accurate exactly to the day....but then it might.

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I have information you don't have. I know that the 2 witnesses are alive and aware of their identity. I know that they won't be prophesying clothed in sackcloth for the entire time the abomination of desolation is set up. They will be "Dispatched" by the Lord after the Abomination of desolation is set up.

iamlamad said:

It seems you just don't believe what John wrote:
The two witnesses will testify for 1260 days. That is like cast in vanadium steel and cannot be altered. It is God's words. How then can you POSSIBLY think God's word would be in error?

I see DAYS in that calendar: that is all that is needed...1260 of them in a row. Please notice that God DID NOT tell us that the month count would start of the first of some month! God did not tell us this would be TODAY's Hebrew calendar, or today's ANYBODY calendar.

To get to the end of the 42 month count, just multiply 42 by 30 and count the days. However, a 42 month count just possibly may not be accurate exactly to the day....but then it might.

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For 2500 years nobody has known that Zechariah 4:6 is Gods message to 1 of the 2 witnesses. If I have insight concerning this, don't you think I have insight concerning the final 3.5 years?

Bible2+ said:

Note that 2 Timothy 4:1 can include both of the future final-judgments. For Jesus will finally-judge only the church immediately at his future appearing (2nd coming) (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27, Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48), while the unsaved won't be finally-judged until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). And the great white throne judgment can be thought of as the 3rd and final stage of the physical aspect of Jesus' kingdom, the 1st stage being Jesus' post-2nd-coming, 1,000-year reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21), and the 2nd stage being after the 1,000 years, when the Gog/Magog rebellion, its defeat, and then an at-least 7-year aftermath will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Ezekiel 39:9b).



In Revelation 10:7, "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (Luke 2:39). Revelation 10:7 means that the prophetic writings regarding the tribulation will finish being performed at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation. For out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).

In Revelation 10:7, the "mystery" is currently known by the church, just as, for example, the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is currently known by the church. For the mystery in Revelation 10:7 has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Revelation 10:7), just as the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).



Note that the "end" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 will be at the end of all the future, never-fulfilled events of Revelation 19:7 to 20:15. For 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't mean that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming. For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). Then he must physically resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14). Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24). Then a new heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).

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Bible2+ said:


Note that 2 Timothy 4:1 can include both of the future final-judgments.


I see nothing in the text to suggest this, the context of 2 Tim 4:1 is set by the words “at his appearing”. If you want to argue “and at his kingdom fine, then you must separate “at his appearing” from that. I stand by my post, He will judge the dead at His appearing which is the second coming.


For Jesus will finally-judge only the church immediately at his future appearing (2nd coming) (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27, Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48),


Agreed.


while the unsaved won't be finally-judged until the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).


Agreed but has no relevance to the point I made.


And the great white throne judgment can be thought of as the 3rd and final stage of the physical aspect of Jesus' kingdom, the 1st stage being Jesus' post-2nd-coming, 1,000-year reign on the earth with the physically resurrected church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21), and the 2nd stage being after the 1,000 years, when the Gog/Magog rebellion, its defeat, and then an at-least 7-year aftermath will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39, Ezekiel 39:9b).


Again, no relevance to the point I made.


In Revelation 10:7, "finished" in the original Greek is "teleo" (G5055), which can mean "performed" (Luke 2:39).


Ok, insert the word “performed” in the passage, it does not alter the meaning!


It shall be “performed” “in the days of the voice of the seventh angel” not at some future time.

Rev 11:15 when the 7th trumpet sounds “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ” are become, not will become, “and thy wrath is come” is come, not will come, “and the time of the dead, that they should be judged” tied to wrath is come by the word “AND” the time to judge the dead is come, not will come.


There is nothing in the text to suggest all of the events listed I Rev 11:15-19 do not happen at the 7th trumpet.


You and I obviously have some difference of opinion on the order of Revelation. Because the wording of a scripture does not fit a predetermined timeline does not mean it can be negated by the words could be, can be, or similar phrases. I like to stick to what the scriptures actually says not what it might say.


Revelation 10:7 means that the prophetic writings regarding the tribulation will finish being performed at the 7th trumpet of the tribulation. For out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the final stage of the tribulation, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1).


Based on your above statement , especially the first sentence, why can’t the dead be judged at the 7th trumpet as written not sometime in the future? As you well know I believe the seals , trumpets and vials overlap in some way. So that is why I’m convinced when Rev 11:18 says “thy wrath is come” it does not mean will come later. That is why I believe in Rev 6:18 when it tells us “wrath is come” I believe it is the same wrath.


As I have said before we will just have to agree to disagree. I don’t not believe you have made your case on this point.


In Revelation 10:7, the "mystery" is currently known by the church, just as, for example, the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is currently known by the church. For the mystery in Revelation 10:7 has already been "declared to his servants the prophets" (Revelation 10:7), just as the "mystery" in Romans 16:25-26 and Colossians 1:26 is already "made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets" (Romans 16:26).


And your point here is? Paul wrote of several mysteries and usually defined what they were. If you want to say all of those mysteries are finished at the 7th trumpet, fine with me, but that includes 1 Corin 15:51 the mystery of our being changed and the resurrection. It will be “performed” in the days of the voice of the seventh angel”


Note that the "end" in 1 Corinthians 15:24 will be at the end of all the future, never-fulfilled events of Revelation 19:7 to 20:15.


We will just have to disagree on that point. Again the context is the resurrection at His coming. Nothing in this passage suggest the end of the future 1000 year reign but rather the end of the church age.

The “kingdom in Matt 25 is not likened to after the 1000 years reign, nor in Rom. 14:17, or 1 Corin 4:20.

1 Corin 15:50 implies it begins at the resurrection. Colossians 1:13 says we have already been translated into the kingdom of God.


For 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 doesn't mean that Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God the Father immediately at his 2nd coming, only that he will do that sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming.


I see no basis in scripture for the above statement, other that the attempt to disassociate the resurrection from the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet of scripture.


For right after his 2nd coming, "he must reign" (1 Corinthians 15:25) on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).


Agreed. I believe you have failed to prove the delivering up of the kingdom is after the 1000 year reign. I believe there is much more evidence to suggest this takes place at the second coming.



Then he must defeat the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).


Agreed ,but not relevant to this point. He will have destroyed “them that destroy the earth” Rev 11:18, “put down all rule and all authority and power”at the second coming and Armageddon, 1 Corin. 15:24, Rev 19:15. It is only after satan is “loosed a little season” the above battle takes place.


Then he must physically resurrect and judge the unsaved of all times, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).


Agreed.


Only then will he have "put all enemies under his feet" (1 Corinthians 15:25), including death itself (1 Corinthians 15:26), which will be cast into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:14).


Disagree, with “only then”, you have not established that from scripture.


1 Corin 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (Second Coming, resurrection)


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. ( “End” of church age, deliver up kingdom, Second Coming, resurrection) (“put down all rule and all authority and power” Armageddon)


25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (1000 year reign)


26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.



Only after that will Jesus deliver up the kingdom to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24).


I don’t believe you have established that from scripture.


Then a new heaven (a new 1st heaven/sky/atmosphere) and a new earth (a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven to the new earth in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2), to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-4).


Agreed.

Does anyone think we will get this resolved before 300 pages?

Fusion77 said:

Yes. The feast of dedication is Chanukah. You know Christmas time. Unleavened bread Spring. Tabernacles fall. Dedication of the temple winter. Christmas, Chanukah are in winter.

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This celebration is about the rededication of the temple about 3 years after Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of himself and had a pig slaughtered on the altar of the Jewish temple, in 167 BC. He stopped the temple sacrifices for about 3 years.

Very few Christians understand the relationship between this event and the prophecies in the Book of Daniel.
.

BABerean2 said:

This celebration is about the rededication of the temple about 3 years after Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of himself and had a pig slaughtered on the altar of the Jewish temple, in 167 BC. He stopped the temple sacrifices for about 3 years.

Very few Christians understand the relationship between this event and the prophecies in the Book of Daniel.
.

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I know what the feast of dedication is. When the temple was rededicated in 160 BC or sometime around there. The only clean oil they had supernaturally burned for 8 days.

Prophets foretell the future. When they prophesy events for this day and age, they will use the calendar of today. A pre flood calendar is irrelevant to the prophecies of today. The anti christ will confirm a covenant for 7 years, based off a calendar of today

BABerean2 said:

This celebration is about the rededication of the temple about 3 years after Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue of himself and had a pig slaughtered on the altar of the Jewish temple, in 167 BC. He stopped the temple sacrifices for about 3 years.

Very few Christians understand the relationship between this event and the prophecies in the Book of Daniel.
.

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Regardless, I'm talking about the final 1/2 of the week. I have insight on this. For 2500 years nobody has understood Zechariah 4. Nobody has known that Zechariah 4:6 is Gods word to 1 of the 2 witnesses. If I have insight concerning this, don't you think u have insight on the final 1/2 of the 7 year week?

Fusion77 said:

The anti christ will confirm a covenant for 7 years, based off a calendar of today

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Your apparent interpretation of Daniel 9:27, although shared by the majority of evangelicals today, requires an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9 and the addition of a manmade "gap", not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.
The 70 weeks prophecy ended 490 years after it started, based on a literal reading of the passage.

It also requires that the angel Gabriel "forgot" to mention the New Covenant found at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and confirmed by Christ below in His own words.



Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. NKJV



Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

...................................................................................



Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

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BABerean2 said:

Your apparent interpretation of Daniel 9:27, although shared by the majority of evangelicals today, requires an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9 and the addition of a manmade "gap", not mentioned by the angel Gabriel.
The 70 weeks prophecy ended 490 years after it started, based on a literal reading of the passage.

It also requires that the angel Gabriel "forgot" to mention the New Covenant found at Jeremiah 31:31-34 and confirmed by Christ below in His own words.



Mat 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. NKJV



Daniel 9:27 from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.


And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

...................................................................................



Who Confirmed The Covenant?
http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

.

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So has the Lord already returned?