Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Short Timer said:

You're making a mistake in your definition of "Resurrection",

People are "Resurrected" from Hell at the GWT,

Resurrection does not mean strictly "From a grave".

In the "First Resurrection" all Rapture/deceased saints are "Resurrected"..."From Heaven", they come "With Jesus".

and all unsaved dead, stay dead,

"NOBODY" is resurrected "from a grave" in the "First Resurrection".

Resurrection means to be "back on the earth alive", after having left, dying or rapture.

Where you come from doesn't matter, Grave, Heaven or Hell.

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Short Timer really did not do this justice. Let's look at your verse:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they [both groups mentioned] lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

" I saw thrones, and they sat upon them" This shows us a part of the first resurrection: it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib" - seated on thrones. There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected....all we see here is that they are now (having been resurrected) acting as judges.

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded There is no timing information given - as to when this resurrection occured. All we know is that it DID occur.

These two groups shown are all there in heaven, having been resurrected into NEW bodies!

So all these are a part of the first or "primary" resurrection. In fact, Jesus Himself was a part of this "First Resurrection." It is the PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection, only for the righteous. the only OTHER resurrection is the second, for the damned.

Short Timer said:

The only two books I've "ever read" outside the KJV is "late great planet earth", and "Angels", by Billy Graham.

I don't waste my time listening to "Men's Opinion", when I can get the info straight from the "Teacher".

I'll let you in on a little secret, that same voice that teaches today is the same voice that will rapture the church,

If you don't have ears to hear it today, you won't in the rapture either.

That's part of the being "Accounted worthy" to escape the trib.

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Short..the Lord also said if you have done it to the least of these you have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:40 KJV
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Why the Lord sometimes uses His imperfect creation to teach and spread the gospel...I don't know.
I do know He has used the church and prophets through the centuries.
Maybe it is because He loves us and wants to make us feel like we are worth something? His precious blood?

If you don't think God uses people why are you in here trying to teach others?

Short Timer said:

Because that is what the scripture teach, Israel didn't have a "Comforter/Holy Ghost" during the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy and neither will they during the last week of the prophecy.

The Comforter/Holy Ghost is a "Unique gift", given only to the church, and when the "Ghost of Jesus" (HE) is taken out of the way, the church goes with him,

"AND THEN" shall that wicked be revealed.

Mt 22:44 The LORD (God) said unto my Lord, (Jesus) Sit thou on my right hand, till I (God) make thine enemies thy footstool? (trib period)

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Please find "ghost of Jesus" in a SCRIPTURE or quit using it. There are THREE that bare record in heaven.
(1) The Father. He is always seen seated on the throne.
(2) The SON...also known as "The WORD" and "The Redeemer" in the Old Covenant. He came to take on flesh - to be born of a woman.
(3) The Holy Spirit.

There are only 3. If one could have had their spiritual eyes opened and looked inside the body of Jesus to see the SPIRIT that brought LIFE to the body....they would have seen the WORD, the one that in the beginning said "let there be light." He is the second person of the trinity, the REDEEMER.

When He was baptized the Holy Spirit came without measure. At that time the Father remained on the throne, while the second person and third person of the triune Godhead walked on earth.

So the "ghost of Jesus" as you have written is the WORD, the REDEEMER, the Bright and Morning Star, Emanuel, The Lion of Judah, and the LAMB of God. He is The Christ, the Chief Cornerstone, the Rock, The King of kings and Lord of lords. Need I say more? Will you PLEASE stop saying the "ghost of Jesus" as if there were 4 in heaven instead of 3?

Riberra said:

How can you cite Bible verses saying that the Comforter /Holy Ghost will be will us UNTIL THE END of the World and at the same time saying that we will be caught up (rapture)to Heaven with the Holy Ghost 7 years BEFORE the End of the World ?

I think that the only thing that you are showing is your immense confusion.

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The confusion is all on the side that wants to IGNORE the final 7 years of "the end."

tanzel said:

Lets go into I Thessalonians (4:13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The above scriptures state that the dead in Christ along with those that are alive shall after the Lords return meet Him in the air and shall ever remain with Him. One should note that they also state that Jesus is descending from heaven. Clearly, He is leaving heaven and is on His way somewhere. It does not say He is coming from heaven to meet us to take us back to heaven. Jesus is meeting the saints in the air and going back to earth!

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It CLEARLY does not say He meets us in the air and comes to the earth either. You have to ADD that part. We add nothing. We have another verses that tells us WHERE: He will take us back to heaven to the places he has prepared.

Now, if you can find a verse somewhere that shows He came back to earth after the two angels said He is going to return somewhere, and He came back to earth to prepare homes or abodes for us HERE ON EARTH, then you might have a verse to back you up.

On the other hand, we have numerous verses telling us He went to be at the right hand of the FATHER. That is in HEAVEN. That is where He went to prepare homes for us. Get it? Got it? Can you find Jesus on the earth anywhere in REvelation chapters 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18? No, HE WILL BE IN HEAVEN and we will be WITH HIM.

tanzel said:

I don't disagree with Daniel the Prophet, but if you want to take an outside word, with these different meaning and fit it in the word of God, and remove the first and second resurrection, then you in error! You want to quote me scripture and then you want to use the word rapture, to justify the means of an event that's call the first resurrection spoken by Paul also the prophets, because without the prophets the apostles and Jesus would not be able to confirm the word of God.
Jesus gave Peter have the keys to the kingdom...Pay attention to what 2 Peter say in 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

All Daniel is saying is that Jesus have 3 1/2 years left to complete prophesy, which would finish or complete a week. You not telling me anything new. It looks like you have a little knowledge and what you should be doing is teaching people how how to become a saint, so they to can come up in the first resurrection. Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. When people use the word Rapture, they think they are going to the third heaven, or being taken before or after the great tribulation.

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I want you to try a scientific experiment.
1. Get an apple.
2. Eat half of the apple and put the other half in the refer until another day.
3. Another day: get the half an apple out, and cut it in half.
4. Do you have two halves left of the entire apple, or do you have two quarters left of the entire apple?

The point is, THERE MUST BE 7 YEARS together if this week of years is to be divided into two halves of 42 months each. You want to divide a half an apple and come up with two halves: WON'T WORK!

The truth is, this is exactly what John shows us in Revelation: the TRUMPETS will sound in the FIRST half, and the VIALS poured out in the SECOND half. Daniel mentioned the last half of the week twice, and John 5 times more.

Short Timer said:

You're making a mistake in your definition of "Resurrection",

People are "Resurrected" from Hell at the GWT,

Resurrection does not mean strictly "From a grave".

In the "First Resurrection" all Rapture/deceased saints are "Resurrected"..."From Heaven", they come "With Jesus".

and all unsaved dead, stay dead,

"NOBODY" is resurrected "from a grave" in the "First Resurrection".

Resurrection means to be "back on the earth alive", after having left, dying or rapture.

Where you come from doesn't matter, Grave, Heaven or Hell.

Click to expand...

WHOA, Short Timer. You are usually right on, but here you are FAR OFF.
When the DEAD IN CHRIST rise, they will rise from GRAVES, and they are very much a part of the first or PRIMARY resurrection. Jesus was the firstfruits of the first or chiefest of resurrections (the resurrection for the righteous), the CHURCH will be the second wave, the Old Testament saints the next wave, and finally those who have died by the Beast as the last wave. ALL are a part of the first or primary resurrection.

Short Timer said:

The thing you fellows do reveal is your lack of "familiarity" with the scriptures, you don't have a clear "overall picture" of what the totally situation will be, which is why you believe one thing without realizing that it contradict something else.

I've noticed some have said they changed their mind and their doctrine, If the spirit had been teaching, you would never have changed your mind, it doesn't teach lies and false doctrine.

And that, plus your confusing doctrine, tell me you're still depending on the carnal mind and not the spirit to learn the scriptures.

Scripture requires "Two witnesses" to "establish the matter" as being the "Truth".

That comforter/Holy Ghost was sent to "bear witness" to the "Truth", whenever the Truth was spoke,

Those who have the ear to hear the spirit, have the Truth "Confirmed" to them by the spirit whenever they hear the truth, even if they don't understand it at the time.

It's just as easy for person with ears to hear to know who does/doesn't have ears to hear as it was for Jesus.

And you will have your "disputers", just as Jesus had.

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Maybe no person was able to hear the "spirit" of "Truth" before 15 year old Margaret Macdonald had her "vision" in 1830.

And those great men of God like Pastor Charles Spurgeon must not have had it, because he did not believe her vision either.

He and many of us must be "disputers" for not agreeing with Margaret's "vision".


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
.

iamlamad said:

I have to say "Paul's rapture" because you think there is a Matthew 24 rapture. You are mistaken. That gathering is NOT Paul's gathering. Paul is the ONLY AUTHOR of the bible to received revelation of the rapture of the church and write about it.

While Jesus was alive on earth the Gentile church we are a part of today was still a mystery hidden in God the Father.

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In essence what you are saying is that Paul was knowing about a coming of Jesus pre-tribulation to rapture the Church in Heaven that Jesus himself was not aware of....
This is Jesus who talked at the Olivet Discourse about His coming after the Tribulation and the gathering of the elects at the sound of a trumpet ... Matthew 24:29-31.

--Do you believe that Paul was not there at the Olivet Discourse ?--

Jesus also who warn us in Matthew 24:23-25 to not believe those who will say that He will return before that moment mentioned in
Matthew 24:29-31.
29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send forth his angels with a Great Sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from
the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Conclusion, you and the pre-trib crowd have twisted the meaning of what Paul is saying.When Paul writed UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD he was referring to the coming of Jesus after the Tribulation that Jesus have talked about at the Olivet Discourse !

iamlamad said:

Please find "ghost of Jesus" in a SCRIPTURE or quit using it. There are THREE that bare record in heaven.
(1) The Father. He is always seen seated on the throne.
(2) The SON...also known as "The WORD" and "The Redeemer" in the Old Covenant. He came to take on flesh - to be born of a woman.
(3) The Holy Spirit.

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Jesus was God in the flesh, but Jesus wasn't God in the flesh, God can't be tempted to sin/die, Jesus was tempted/died.

So, depending on the "Context" of your interpretation, He was God, but he wasn't God.

The Holy spirit was sent in "Jesus name", not the "Father's name", so the "spirit" is the "ghost of Jesus", my sheep hear "My voice".

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit, but it haint when the "Ghost of Jesus" is speaking.

You'll find this "It is, but it haint" interpretations throughout scripture, depending on how it is being interpreted.

And it's the major cause of most failures to understand the scriptures,

The interpretation/separation/application of the "Trinity" is the most obvious, people can't understand how Jesus and God can be so different, but still be the same one.

And the proof of that is their failure to recognize the differences between the way God operates and Jesus operates,
and those differences prevents both from operating at the same time. same time frame,

God operate with people under the "Law and prophets", "Signs and wonders", Jesus operate under Grace from law and no signs and wonders.

If people understood the Trinity, they would know that Jesus doesn't deal with Israel during the trib just by the method being used.

Israel doesn't believe God has a "Jesus side to him", and Christians don't believe Jesus has a "God side to him" either.

Whatever God is in their mind, can't change.

The same way Israel couldn't believe God changed into Jesus for the church,
Christians don't believe Jesus is going to change back into God for Israel/trib.

Yes the Holy Ghost is the "Holy spirit", but it haint, as long as Jesus is speaking.

And at the "last trump" of the Ghost, the Holy Spirit will return.

kingskid said:

Short..the Lord also said if you have done it to the least of these you have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:40 KJV
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Why the Lord sometimes uses His imperfect creation to teach and spread the gospel...I don't know.
I do know He has used the church and prophets through the centuries.
Maybe it is because He loves us and wants to make us feel like we are worth something? His precious blood?

If you don't think God uses people why are you in here trying to teach others?

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God uses people, but the ones he calls, he teaches, and sent the spirit to be a second witness to the truth.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

There's only one reason a person can hear the truth and not recognize it as being the truth, and that's because they can't hear the "second witnesses", the spirit.

I'm surprised by how few people have enough experience with the spirit to know how it operate,

Part of the falling away I guess.

iamlamad said:

WHOA, Short Timer. You are usually right on, but here you are FAR OFF.
When the DEAD IN CHRIST rise, they will rise from GRAVES, and they are very much a part of the first or PRIMARY resurrection. Jesus was the firstfruits of the first or chiefest of resurrections (the resurrection for the righteous), the CHURCH will be the second wave, the Old Testament saints the next wave, and finally those who have died by the Beast as the last wave. ALL are a part of the first or primary resurrection.

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"ALL" Deceased/Rapture/Martyred saints are in heaven, and all are part of the "Cloud" (of witnesses) Jesus return in,

There are no Righteous souls still in a grave waiting for Jesus to return, they come "With him",

Unsaved dead stay dead, so nobody is resurrected from a "grave", from Heaven, yes.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Mr 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Re 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Re 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

BABerean2 said:

Maybe no person was able to hear the "spirit" of "Truth" before 15 year old Margaret Macdonald had her "vision" in 1830.

And those great men of God like Pastor Charles Spurgeon must not have had it, because he did not believe her vision either.

He and many of us must be "disputers" for not agreeing with Margaret's "vision".


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf
.

Click to expand...

I've never read her "vision", so what she said I have no idea, I might even disagree with parts of it.

When you disagree with "Truth", it's not the person speaking you disagree with but the "TRUTH", which Jesus said he was "TRUTH".

So, disagreeing with the Truth would be doing the same thing Israel done, disagreeing with Jesus.

Israel didn't believe they were disagreeing with God, and for the exact same reason, people today don't believe they are disagreeing with God.

That way that seemeth right, Haint.

Short Timer said:

Jesus was God in the flesh, but Jesus wasn't God in the flesh, God can't be tempted to sin/die, Jesus was tempted/died.

So, depending on the "Context" of your interpretation, He was God, but he wasn't God.

The Holy spirit was sent in "Jesus name", not the "Father's name", so the "spirit" is the "ghost of Jesus", my sheep hear "My voice".

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

The Holy Ghost is the Holy Spirit, but it haint when the "Ghost of Jesus" is speaking.

You'll find this "It is, but it haint" interpretations throughout scripture, depending on how it is being interpreted.

And it's the major cause of most failures to understand the scriptures,

The interpretation/separation/application of the "Trinity" is the most obvious, people can't understand how Jesus and God can be so different, but still be the same one.

And the proof of that is their failure to recognize the differences between the way God operates and Jesus operates,
and those differences prevents both from operating at the same time. same time frame,

God operate with people under the "Law and prophets", "Signs and wonders", Jesus operate under Grace from law and no signs and wonders.

If people understood the Trinity, they would know that Jesus doesn't deal with Israel during the trib just by the method being used.

Israel doesn't believe God has a "Jesus side to him", and Christians don't believe Jesus has a "God side to him" either.

Whatever God is in their mind, can't change.

The same way Israel couldn't believe God changed into Jesus for the church,
Christians don't believe Jesus is going to change back into God for Israel/trib.

Yes the Holy Ghost is the "Holy spirit", but it haint, as long as Jesus is speaking.

And at the "last trump" of the Ghost, the Holy Spirit will return.

Click to expand...

Short do you know what a haint is?

Haint
Southern colloquialism
def., ghost, apparition, lost soul

Short Timer said:

"ALL" Deceased/Rapture/Martyred saints are in heaven, and all are part of the "Cloud" (of witnesses) Jesus return in,

There are no Righteous souls still in a grave waiting for Jesus to return, they come "With him",

Unsaved dead stay dead, so nobody is resurrected from a "grave", from Heaven, yes.

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Mr 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.


Re 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Re 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

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We don't agree all the time,but this I agree...However,how did you fit the rapture(saints) in this?...

Short Timer said:

The only two books I've "ever read" outside the KJV is "late great planet earth", and "Angels", by Billy Graham.

I don't waste my time listening to "Men's Opinion", when I can get the info straight from the "Teacher".

I'll let you in on a little secret, that same voice that teaches today is the same voice that will rapture the church,

If you don't have ears to hear it today, you won't in the rapture either.

That's part of the being "Accounted worthy" to escape the trib.

Click to expand...

Two years ago I have heard an INSIDE VOICE telling me to verify myself in the Bible about a passage that I have seen in a book (The Cosmic Conspiracy By Stan Deyo) which I was sure was refererring to the rapture of the Church before the Tribulation.
The passage in the book was:

Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

I know now that these verses do not refer to what the book was talking about.... quite the contrary.
So, if you pray to be TAKEN to where these folks will go... Hmmm ...you better to think about it twice before making your choice....I prefer to be left to be caught up in the "Cloud" (of witnesses /resurrected Saints) to meet Jesus in the air when Jesus will gather the elect(Saints)still alive and remain unto His coming and forever be with Him when he touch the Olive Mount to reign with Him on the Earth.

Luke 17
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Postvieww said in post 2898:

[Re: The rapture]

Paul told us when it will be.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition . . .

It will not happen until after the man of sin is revealed.

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Good point.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (i.e. without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at the 2nd coming, the Antichrist will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).

Short Timer said in post 2899:

Nobody on earth is going to escape the "Dominion/Power" of the AC.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

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Revelation 13:7-10 refers to the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10), being allowed to physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some Biblical Christians in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). There are no Biblical Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

But Revelation 13:7-10 doesn't mean that every person in the church will be overcome by the Antichrist. For some in the church will be in God-protected wilderness places (Revelation 12:6, Revelation 12:14-16), and so they will still be "alive and remain" on the earth at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Short Timer said in post 2899:

We're either saved or we're not, we have ears to hear or we don't, it's heaven or hell,

there is no "middle ground", in salvation or doctrine.

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Are you saying that we are not saved unless we agree with everything you say?

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Short Timer said in post 2903:

parousia = advent, a coming into place, view, or being; arrival:

Harpazo = to seize, catch up, snatch away

You do know the difference in someone "Coming" and someone "Going",

Don't you???

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Note that the harpazo won't happen until the parousia:

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Also, Jesus' parousia (coming), his apocalypse (revelation), and his epiphany (appearing) all refer to the same thing: his 2nd coming.

For his future "parousia" is his 2nd "coming", when he will resurrect and change the obedient part of the church into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53), when he will resurrect and then catch up together (rapture) the church into the clouds to hold a meeting with him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), when he will gather together (rapture) the church and destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8). This will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7,20), and right before the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6).

And Jesus' future "apocalypse" is his future "revelation", which the church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:13; 1 Peter 4:13; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), his 2nd "coming" which the church is waiting for (1 Corinthians 1:7), his future "appearing" which the church is waiting for (1 Peter 1:7).

And Jesus' future "epiphany" is his future "appearing", which the church is waiting for (1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8, Titus 2:13), the future "brightness" of his future parousia which will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

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Short Timer said in post 2930:

Yes the Holy Ghost is the "Holy spirit", but it haint, as long as Jesus is speaking.

And at the "last trump" of the Ghost, the Holy Spirit will return.

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Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit [pneuma] of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost [pneuma], be with you all. Amen.

Note that in the KJV New Testament, the verses which refer to the Holy "Spirit" (e.g. Ephesians 4:30) and the verses which refer to the Holy "Ghost" (e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:14) are all translated from the same original Greek word: "pneuma" (G4151). So there is no division at all.

Also, note that even in the KJV, the Holy "Ghost" spoke in the Old Testament. For Hebrews 3:7-11 says that the Holy Ghost spoke Psalms 95:7b-11. And Hebrews 10:15-17 says that the Holy Ghost spoke Jeremiah 31:33-34. And Mark 12:36 says that the Holy Ghost spoke Psalms 110:1. And Acts 1:16,20 says that the Holy Ghost spoke Psalms 69:25. And Acts 28:25b-27 says that the Holy Ghost spoke Isaiah 6:9-10. See also 2 Peter 1:20-21.

Also Matthew 12:32, Matthew 28:19, Luke 3:22, and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are able to distinguish between Jesus and the Holy Ghost in some way.

Short Timer said in post 2930:

And at the "last trump" of the Ghost, the Holy Spirit will return.

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The "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52) is the trumpet which will sound after the tribulation (Matthew 24:31).

That is, the trump-of-God resurrection of the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15) is the last-trump resurrection of the church (1 Corinthians 15:52) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And the trump of God/last trump is the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

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Short Timer said in post 2933:

When you disagree with "Truth", it's not the person speaking you disagree with but the "TRUTH", which Jesus said he was "TRUTH".

So, disagreeing with the Truth would be doing the same thing Israel done, disagreeing with Jesus.

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Are you saying that if we disagree with anything you say, we are disagreeing with Jesus?

iamlamad said:

Short Timer really did not do this justice. Let's look at your verse:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they [both groups mentioned] lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

" I saw thrones, and they sat upon them" This shows us a part of the first resurrection: it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib" - seated on thrones. There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected....all we see here is that they are now (having been resurrected) acting as judges.

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded There is no timing information given - as to when this resurrection occured. All we know is that it DID occur.

These two groups shown are all there in heaven, having been resurrected into NEW bodies!

So all these are a part of the first or "primary" resurrection. In fact, Jesus Himself was a part of this "First Resurrection." It is the PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection, only for the righteous. the only OTHER resurrection is the second, for the damned.

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Lamad in post 2921 Lamad in red

“Short Timer really did not do this justice. Let's look at your verse:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they [both groups mentioned] lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

" I saw thrones, and they sat upon them" This shows us a part of the first resurrection: it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib" - seated on thrones. There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected....all we see here is that they are now (having been resurrected) acting as judges.

Help me out here. Sounds like you contradict yourself here. “There is no time information given as to WHEN they were resurrected” yet you proclaim “it is the CHURCH - having been resurrected and caught up before the "trib"”. No timing given but it was definitely before the “trib”. It is this type of interpretation that causes so many different opinions on this forum.

I saw the souls of them that were beheaded There is no timing information given - as to when this resurrection occured. All we know is that it DID occur.

These two groups shown are all there in heaven, having been resurrected into NEW bodies!

How did you determine this is in heaven? Christ has already returned to earth with his armies, Rev 19:11-16. Rev 20:1 “ And I saw an angel come down from heaven.” So Christ has returned from heaven with His armies, the angel came down from heaven to bind satan for a 1000 years and you place thrones with raptured saints back in heaven??? Please explain how you get Rev 20:4 back into heaven. Looks like you are taking great liberties with John’s God given order.

So all these are a part of the first or "primary" resurrection. In fact, Jesus Himself was a part of this "First Resurrection." It is the PRIMARY or CHIEF resurrection, only for the righteous. the only OTHER resurrection is the second, for the damned.”

Now we have a “Primary or Chief” resurrection, that demands at least a secondary and possibly a third or forth. I would love to see the scriptural references for all of those resurrections for the righteous dead. Daniel wrote of only one Dan 12:2 & 13 at the time of troube, at the end of days. Jesus wrote of only one John 6:39,40,44 & 54 at the last day. Paul wrote of only one 1 Corin 15:23-24, at His coming at the end. Paul described the same resurrection in 1 Corin 15 :51-52 at the last trump. As pointed out above you have made assumptions and statements about the passage you quoted that cannot be supported with scripture.

kingskid said:

Short do you know what a haint is?

Haint
Southern colloquialism
def., ghost, apparition, lost soul

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I was told more "Haint stories" growing up than you can imagine,

but hit haint the only daffynition of the word.

nowatimean, Vern???