Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Bible2+ · Oct 1, 2015

Short Timer said in post 2190:

So just what is the "fulness of the Gentiles", and why does dealing with the Gentiles have the Jews blinded???

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

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Short Timer said in post 2197:

Jesus won't give them the "Signs" they "require" to believe.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom . . .

It is possible for Jews to both require and seek miraculous signs, just as they did in the 1st century AD (John 2:18, Mark 8:11). But not all Jews of all times have to. There are a lot of Jews who have become saved in modern times (e.g. "Jews for Jesus") without them having to see miraculous signs performed. 1 Corinthians 1:22 was simply referring to the general tendencies of Jewish and Gentile unbelievers in the time of the apostle Paul in the 1st century AD. Also, 1 Corinthians 1:22 doesn't mean signs can't be given to Gentiles. For when Paul preached to the Corinthians, who were Gentiles (1 Corinthians 12:2), he gave them signs (2 Corinthians 12:12). Also, the Corinthians themselves, after they got saved, operated in the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 14:26-32; 1 Corinthians 12:8-10). Similarly, 1 Corinthians 1:22 doesn't mean wisdom can't be given to Jewish believers, for both Jewish and Gentile believers can receive wisdom (1 Corinthians 1:23,24,30, James 1:5).

Postvieww · Oct 1, 2015

Short Timer said:
The feast reveal the sequence of all major events, any one who can make a connection between the "Passover lamb" and Jesus,

"Should" be able to make a connection between the "Trump of God" and the Feast of "TRUMPets".

Of course if you don't understand the feast then I guess the Passover lamb and Jesus doesn't matter, or any of the other events that occurred on the "EXACT SAME DAY" as their corresponding feast.

Feast:
http://i25.tinypic.com/2e0mp6t.jpg

I would not question a connection between the feast of trumpets and the trump of God at the resurrection. I would like to know how you make that pretrib?

iamlamad · Oct 1, 2015

Short Timer said:
Sure they are "one God", but they don't deal with people the way.

One uses the "law and Prophets"...."Signs and wonder" to lead people, enforces the law "on the spot".

the other, don't enforce the law "on the spot" and won't give signs and wonder.

One can't be tempted to sin,

the other was tempted to sin.

Nobody can look on the one and live,

Any one can look at the other and live.

One is a spirit

the other is flesh/bone.

The one who lead Israel in the OT

stop leading when the other came and started leading the Gentiles,

and won't start leading Israel again until the other leaves.

One spoke to people through Prophets,

the other speaks directly to people.

One never sent an "indwelling" spirit to abide with people "Forever"

the other one did.

How are you going to understand scripture, or God, if you don't know the differences between the OT God and the NT God,

Evidently a lot of people can't, they can't tell who is leading who just by the type of leadership being used,

BTW, that is the same "Blindness" Israel has experienced ever since Jesus came.

How can you say "one" and "the other" when they are the very same BEING?

The difference is answered in the word "Dispensations." The ONE GOD dealt with people differently in different ages.

You miss one VERY important fact: Jesus never did ANYTHING except He saw the Father do it. They are ONE and they have always acted as ONE. Jesus never spoke until He heard from the Holy Spirit what to say.

WAKE UP! YOUR body is flesh and bone and blood, but your spirit man is SPIRIT. Are you then TWO beings?

iamlamad · Oct 1, 2015

Short Timer said:
Because everyone associates Israel with being Jews.

When Israel returned from Babylon, the ten northern tribes (what returned) were called "Israelite", the two southern tribes, Jews.

The Israelite refused to divorce their non Jewish wives, the southern Tribes divorced their non Jewish wives.

Because of this the Samaritan woman at the well was considered to be Gentiles by the Jews, even though she was a descendant of Jacob.

Ephraim was prophesied to be the father of a multitude of nations, obviously not all Jews, and this is where Ephraim came to represent the Gentiles, Church, and the woman at the well a prefigure of the "Bride of Christ" or Church.

The land given to Joseph/his descendants (Ephraim) was Samaria, they were called Samaritans.

Ge 48:22 Moreover I have given to thee one portion above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow.

They know who they are, but not who Jesus is, Jesus won't give them the "Signs" they "require" to believe.

Ephraim was prophesied to be the father of a multitude of nations, obviously not all Jews, and this is where Ephraim came to represent the Gentiles, Church, and the woman at the well a prefigure of the "Bride of Christ" or Church.

This theory is BOGUS and MYTH. You are basing this on ONE prophecy. Perhaps they did not do what was required of them to become a multitude of nations. It is just as possible they DID, but your idea and God's idea are two different things. I challenge you to prove this by scripture.

iamlamad · Oct 1, 2015

Postvieww said:
I would not question a connection between the feast of trumpets and the trump of God at the resurrection. I would like to know how you make that pretrib?

We would like to know how you make 1 Thes. 4 & 5 post trib.

Short Timer · Oct 1, 2015

Bible2+ said:
Note that there is no pre-tribulation idea in John 14, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself (John 14:3). Also, the pre-tribulation rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

Everybody understands dying and going to heaven to be with Jesus, an Angel carried Lazarus to Abe bosom, but nobody know anything about both living/dead all going at the same time.

Do you mean there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing it is pre-tribulation, and/or by living holy lives? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

Do you believe a unsaved person can be in possession of the "Holy Ghost", or "Spirit of God"???

I would hope your answer would be "NO".

"Oil" is a symbol in scripture representing the Spirit.

Mt 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

"Gone out" means at some previous point they had "oil" to burn their light, but had "Quenched the spirit" by backsliding and were not accounted worthy so were "Left behind" to be chastised right along with backslid Israel.

Lu 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. (left behind)

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

The trouble with your belief is that it doesn't line up with "precepts" taught in scripture,

Unsaved, no spirit, no oil, no light ever burning that can "Gone out".

God is no respecter of persons, if you deserve chastisement, you get it, Jew or Gentiles.

And God only chastises "his own".

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

According to the "precepts" of scripture, both the five virgins and the servant had been saved at some previous point in time and backslid on God, and as "Chastisement" were left behind to be "beat with the same ROD" God is using to Chastise Israel.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/leadership) in their hand is mine indignation.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan (God's rod) for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (not day of Christ/rapture)

Ps 125:3 For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous;

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

It's real easy to get mixed up when you don't interpret one verse "in context" with the "Precept" verse taught in scripture, that's called "line upon line".

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

In case you haven't notice, those "precepts" make the Rapture "pre trib."

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

How can the AC be given power over "ALL" kindred, tongues and nations if some are "Excluded" from his powers???

How is it possible that no flesh would survive, "IF" some were protected, and what few does survive only survive because the trib is cut short???

Everything that takes place during the trib affect everyone on the planet, Man/God made tribulations, no one is excluded, "ALL" kindred, tongue and nations.

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth

for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Short Timer · Oct 1, 2015

iamlamad said:
Ephraim was prophesied to be the father of a multitude of nations, obviously not all Jews, and this is where Ephraim came to represent the Gentiles, Church, and the woman at the well a prefigure of the "Bride of Christ" or Church.

This theory is BOGUS and MYTH. You are basing this on ONE prophecy. Perhaps they did not do what was required of them to become a multitude of nations. It is just as possible they DID, but your idea and God's idea are two different things. I challenge you to prove this by scripture.

De 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

Isa 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.

Ro 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, (prefigure of Jesus) the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

iamlamad · Oct 1, 2015

Short Timer said:
Everybody understands dying and going to heaven to be with Jesus, an Angel carried Lazarus to Abe bosom, but nobody know anything about both living/dead all going at the same time.

Do you believe a unsaved person can be in possession of the "Holy Ghost", or "Spirit of God"???

I would hope your answer would be "NO".

"Oil" is a symbol in scripture representing the Spirit.

Mt 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

"Gone out" means at some previous point they had "oil" to burn their light, but had "Quenched the spirit" by backsliding and were not accounted worthy so were "Left behind" to be chastised right along with backslid Israel.

Lu 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. (left behind)

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

The trouble with your belief is that it doesn't line up with "precepts" taught in scripture,

Unsaved, no spirit, no oil, no light ever burning that can "Gone out".

God is no respecter of persons, if you deserve chastisement, you get it, Jew or Gentiles.

And God only chastises "his own".

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

According to the "precepts" of scripture, both the five virgins and the servant had been saved at some previous point in time and backslid on God, and as "Chastisement" were left behind to be "beat with the same ROD" God is using to Chastise Israel.

2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (AC) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (power/leadership) in their hand is mine indignation.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan (God's rod) for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (not day of Christ/rapture)

Ps 125:3 For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous;

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

It's real easy to get mixed up when you don't interpret one verse "in context" with the "Precept" verse taught in scripture, that's called "line upon line".

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

In case you haven't notice, those "precepts" make the Rapture "pre trib."

How can the AC be given power over "ALL" kindred, tongues and nations if some are "Excluded" from his powers???

How is it possible that no flesh would survive, "IF" some were protected, and what few does survive only survive because the trib is cut short???

Everything that takes place during the trib affect everyone on the planet, Man/God made tribulations, no one is excluded, "ALL" kindred, tongue and nations.

Re 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth

for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Good post. However, you will find that Bible2 is only a copy and past machine. I doubt seriously if his data-banks include any programming to learn.

Bro.T · Oct 1, 2015

Short Timer said:
If Jesus and the church wasn't revealed, then how could a rapture of that church be revealed????

The OT describes events during the trib as well as Rev, but there's no mention of a church rapture in either of them,

So, "WHY" would such an important event as the rapture not be mentioned is either the OT or NT???

Even Jesus didn't mention the rapture, Paul was the one who revealed the rapture.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep,(die) but we shall all be changed.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

Have you ever been through the scriptures to find out how many different ways the church "conforms to Jesus image"?????

Standing here on the earth alive and leaving the earth going up to heaven, just as Jesus did when he ascend from Mt Olives,

is just one of about 17-18 ways I've found so far.

Jesus was "Rapture" and in conforming to his image, so will the church.

I don't have them on this laptop, next time I'm on the desktop I'll post them.

Most people will not understand 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Short Timer said:
Jesus was "Rapture" and in conforming to his image, so will the church.

Like Paul say in 1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
Rapture have no place in the Bible. Again Paul say in Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

iamlamad · Oct 1, 2015

People are led astray by choosing scriptures that really are not related to Paul's rapture. The only real information we can find on the timing of the rapture will be found in Paul's letters and in Revelation. And then in Revelation it is only as Paul's information fits.
1 Thes. indeed does give us timing information. Paul writes of a SUDDENLY - a sudden event that will come with no warning - at a time of peace and safety. At this sudden event Paul gives us much information.
1. The suddenly comes when the dead in Christ suddenly rise.
2. One split second after the dead in Christ rise, those alive and in Christ rise.
3. At this sudden event of those in Christ rising, both the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ MISS an event on earth.
4. At this suddenly when those in Christ are caught up, those in darkness get "sudden destruction."
5. This "sudden destruction" comes at the very same moment in time as the catching up.
6. No one left behind from the catching up will escape this "sudden destruction." Many will die.
7. This "sudden destruction" will be the very start of the Day of the Lord.
8. The Catching up will not happen until Jesus Christ descends to the air and the trumpet is sounded.
9. The DAY comes as a thief because Jesus comes as a thief - at a time no one suspects.

If we attempt to plug this information into a posttrib coming, we immediately run into problems.
1. No one will know the day nor hour of this coming on the white horse, but indeed, after the 7th vial is poured out, and the incredible earthquake takes place that shakes the mountains down into the earth - then people will know His coming will be very soon, as in "immediately after." This is FAR MORE information that we have now for His coming for His saints. Believers have been waiting for nearly 2000 years.

2. Next we see the problem of the Day of the Lord. It begins with dead in Christ rising, or a moment after when Paul's "sudden destruction" hits. In Revelation we find these events Paul writes of fits best at the 6th seal event that John shows us comes before the start of the 70th week. We also see that the great earthquake could well be Paul's "sudden destruction." Some immagine (with no scriptural backing) that "The day of the Lord" cannot and does not start until Jesus arrives on His white horse. This is error. To find the truth, we must take ALL scripture on the Day of the Lord and believe all of them are truth. The Day of the Lord starts with disaster, not a catching up - which is a glorious event. The day of the Lord starts as DESTRUCTION of the earth and the sinners in the earth. If we read Revelation with all the Old Testament scriptures on "the DAY" in mind, we see that the DAY begins right where John says, at this great earthquake at the 6th seal, and then continues on destruction piled upon destruction as the trumpet judgments come.

In Revelation we see that the DAY begins at the 6th seal, before the 7th seal begins the 70th week, and continues on through much of Revelation. It is more difficult to find the END of the Day of the Lord. Some think it goes for the thousand year reign of Christ. However, we are concerned with the beginning, not the end.

3. Next, we have the problem of the catching up being AFTER the marriage and supper. "no problem" some say: just MOVE the marriage and supper to a later time....so the rearranging begins.

4. There is yet another problem: if the rapture changed all believers at the moment of Jesus Second coming, who then is left on earth in their flesh and blood body to enter the millennial reign of Christ? No posttribber has ever answered this problem satisfactorily. They imagine NEW BELIEVERS will satisfy this requirement. If we consider those who fled into the wilderness - perhaps then they are the only people who will enter the millennial reign.

Riberra · Oct 1, 2015

iamlamad said:
We also see that the great earthquake could well be Paul's "sudden destruction." Some immagine (with no scriptural backing) that "The day of the Lord" cannot and does not start until Jesus arrives on His white horse. This is error. To find the truth, we must take ALL scripture on the Day of the Lord and believe all of them are truth. The Day of the Lord starts with disaster, not a catching up - which is a glorious event. The day of the Lord starts as DESTRUCTION of the earth and the sinners in the earth. If we read Revelation with all the Old Testament scriptures on "the DAY" in mind,

The Day of the Lord can be defined as the LAST 24 hours of the present wicked world.
-Jesus coming as a thief will start the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Revelation 16:15. Zephaniah 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

-The great earthquake caused by God , such as was not since men were upon the earth -Revelation 16:18-19,will totally destroy all the cities around the world -and the cities of the nations fell
-The Day of the Lord will culminate with Jesus visible on His white horse at Armageddon during the Battle of the great day of God Almighty .Revelation 16:14 ,Revelation 19:11-21
-The beast and false prophet will be cast into the Lake of Fire Revelation 19:20.
-Satan will be bound into the bottomless pit...Revelation 20:1-2
-After that will begin the Millennium reign of Jesus.

Revelation 16

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Zephaniah 1:14-18
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Postvieww · Oct 1, 2015

iamlamad said:
People are led astray by choosing scriptures that really are not related to Paul's rapture. The only real information we can find on the timing of the rapture will be found in Paul's letters and in Revelation. And then in Revelation it is only as Paul's information fits.
1 Thes. indeed does give us timing information. Paul writes of a SUDDENLY - a sudden event that will come with no warning - at a time of peace and safety. At this sudden event Paul gives us much information.
1. The suddenly comes when the dead in Christ suddenly rise.
2. One split second after the dead in Christ rise, those alive and in Christ rise.
3. At this sudden event of those in Christ rising, both the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ MISS an event on earth.
4. At this suddenly when those in Christ are caught up, those in darkness get "sudden destruction."
5. This "sudden destruction" comes at the very same moment in time as the catching up.
6. No one left behind from the catching up will escape this "sudden destruction." Many will die.
7. This "sudden destruction" will be the very start of the Day of the Lord.
8. The Catching up will not happen until Jesus Christ descends to the air and the trumpet is sounded.
9. The DAY comes as a thief because Jesus comes as a thief - at a time no one suspects.

If we attempt to plug this information into a posttrib coming, we immediately run into problems.
1. No one will know the day nor hour of this coming on the white horse, but indeed, after the 7th vial is poured out, and the incredible earthquake takes place that shakes the mountains down into the earth - then people will know His coming will be very soon, as in "immediately after." This is FAR MORE information that we have now for His coming for His saints. Believers have been waiting for nearly 2000 years.

2. Next we see the problem of the Day of the Lord. It begins with dead in Christ rising, or a moment after when Paul's "sudden destruction" hits. In Revelation we find these events Paul writes of fits best at the 6th seal event that John shows us comes before the start of the 70th week. We also see that the great earthquake could well be Paul's "sudden destruction." Some immagine (with no scriptural backing) that "The day of the Lord" cannot and does not start until Jesus arrives on His white horse. This is error. To find the truth, we must take ALL scripture on the Day of the Lord and believe all of them are truth. The Day of the Lord starts with disaster, not a catching up - which is a glorious event. The day of the Lord starts as DESTRUCTION of the earth and the sinners in the earth. If we read Revelation with all the Old Testament scriptures on "the DAY" in mind, we see that the DAY begins right where John says, at this great earthquake at the 6th seal, and then continues on destruction piled upon destruction as the trumpet judgments come.

In Revelation we see that the DAY begins at the 6th seal, before the 7th seal begins the 70th week, and continues on through much of Revelation. It is more difficult to find the END of the Day of the Lord. Some think it goes for the thousand year reign of Christ. However, we are concerned with the beginning, not the end.

3. Next, we have the problem of the catching up being AFTER the marriage and supper. "no problem" some say: just MOVE the marriage and supper to a later time....so the rearranging begins.

4. There is yet another problem: if the rapture changed all believers at the moment of Jesus Second coming, who then is left on earth in their flesh and blood body to enter the millennial reign of Christ? No posttribber has ever answered this problem satisfactorily. They imagine NEW BELIEVERS will satisfy this requirement. If we consider those who fled into the wilderness - perhaps then they are the only people who will enter the millennial reign.

Lamad said:

“4. There is yet another problem: if the rapture changed all believers at the moment of Jesus Second coming, who then is left on earth in their flesh and blood body to enter the millennial reign of Christ? No posttribber has ever answered this problem satisfactorily. They imagine NEW BELIEVERS will satisfy this requirement. If we consider those who fled into the wilderness - perhaps then they are the only people who will enter the millennial reign.”

No problem:

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

All flesh will not be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

There will be unbelievers on earth during the millennium

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

What about Point #1 ???

Short Timer · Oct 1, 2015

tanzel said:
Most people will not understand 1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Like Paul say in 1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
Rapture have no place in the Bible. Again Paul say in Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Glad you posted this, it reminded me of posting the ways we conform to Jesus image, next time I was on the desktop,

Guess what, I'm on the desktop.

Let’s look at some of the ways the church will conform to Jesus’s image.

1.
Jesus was Born by the Spirit
Mt 1:20 for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Christians are born by the spirit
Joh 3:5 Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,

2.
Jesus, was the Son of God.
Matthew 8 29,
Jesus, thou Son of God.

Christians, are Sons of God.
John 1 12,
to them gave he power to become the sons of God.

3
Jesus, spoke the words of God.
John 3 34,
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:

Christians, speak the words of God.
John 17 8,
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me.

4
Jesus, possessed the Holy spirit.
John 3 34,
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Christians, possesses the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11 13,
your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.

5
Jesus, was the Light of the world.
John 9 5,
I am the light of the world.

Christians, are the light of the world.
Matthew 5 14,
Ye are the light of the world.

6
Jesus, performed the Works of God.
John 9 4,
I must work the works of him that sent me.

Christians, perform the Works of God.
John 14 12,
He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.

7
Jesus, had the Righteousness of God.
Romans 10 4,
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

Christians, Have the Righteousness of God.
Romans 3 22,
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe.

8
Jesus, was God's Representative.
Matthew 10 40,
he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Christians, are God's Representatives.
Matthew 10 40,
He that receiveth you receiveth me.

9
Jesus, Crucified for salvation.
Matthew 27 35,
And they crucified him.

Christians, Crucified for salvation.
Romans 6 6,
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him.

10
Sin had no dominion over Jesus.
Second Corinthians 5 21,
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin.

Christians, sin has no dominion over Christians.
Romans 6 14,
For sin shall not have dominion over you.

11
Jesus, was Raptured off the earth.
Acts 1 9,
he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Christians, will be Raptured off the earth.
First Thessolonians 4 17,
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.

12
Jesus, was Resurrected in three days.
Luke 18 33,
and the third day he shall rise again.

Christians, will be Resurrected in Three days.
Romans 6 5,
we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

These three days for the church are the 5th, 6th, and 7th day.

13
Jesus, received a Glorified body.
Acts 2 31,
neither his flesh did see corruption.

Christians, will receive a Glorified Body.
First Corinthians 15 53,
For this corruptible must put on in corruption.

14
Jesus, presented his Body a living sacrifice before God.
First Corinthians 5 7, For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.

Christians, presenting their body, a living sacrifice.
Romans 12 1,
that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God.

15
Jesus, will inherit the universe.
First Peter 3 22,
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;
angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Christians, will inherit the universe.
Romans 8 17,
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

16
Jesus, will Reign over the earth.
Habakkuk 2 14,
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,
as the waters cover the sea.

Christians, will Reign over the earth.
Revelations 20 4,
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

17
The title, Son of God, conferred on Christians,
entitled them to sit on the right hand of God, with Jesus.

Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also
overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

18
As Jesus presented only his body before God,
so will only his body, the Church, be presented before God at the lamb’s marriage
supper.(Rapture/Matt 22)

Revelations 19 9, And he saith unto me, Write,
Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Short Timer · Oct 1, 2015

Postvieww said:
Lamad said:

“4. There is yet another problem: if the rapture changed all believers at the moment of Jesus Second coming, who then is left on earth in their flesh and blood body to enter the millennial reign of Christ? No posttribber has ever answered this problem satisfactorily. They imagine NEW BELIEVERS will satisfy this requirement. If we consider those who fled into the wilderness - perhaps then they are the only people who will enter the millennial reign.”

Lamad is right, If the rapture and second coming was at the same time, no one would be left on earth,

Jesus would remove the righteous, (wheat) Angels would remove the tares, no body left behind???

No problem:

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

All flesh will not be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

There will be unbelievers on earth during the millennium

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

What about Point #1 ???

I agree that some survive the trib "BUT ONLY" because it is shorten, if it wasn't, then "NO FLESH" would survive.

How can you, or anyone say, there is a protected group when the only reason any "flesh" survives is "Because" the trib is shorten???

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved:

iamlamad · Oct 1, 2015

Postvieww said:
Lamad said:

“4. There is yet another problem: if the rapture changed all believers at the moment of Jesus Second coming, who then is left on earth in their flesh and blood body to enter the millennial reign of Christ? No posttribber has ever answered this problem satisfactorily. They imagine NEW BELIEVERS will satisfy this requirement. If we consider those who fled into the wilderness - perhaps then they are the only people who will enter the millennial reign.”

No problem:

Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

All flesh will not be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

There will be unbelievers on earth during the millennium

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

What about Point #1 ???

It is so easy to quote a verse, and hope it fits. Let's examine yours:

every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King

Does this verse prove a posttrib rapture, or prove a pretrib rapture - or neither?

Let's examine: The day Jesus returns: in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye: suddenly all who are alive in Christ (born again) are changed into resurrection bodies. So NO BELIEVERS left on the earth. (Perhaps some semi-believers that are lukewarm?)

Probably in a previous moment, the moment Jesus hit the atmosphere, the angels take the tares off the earth. So now no believers, and no lawless left on the earth.

Next, the sheep and goat judgment: all the goats are taken off the earth. Now all there are as sheep, but NONE are born again - if such is possible.

My question to you: will unbelievers be allowed entrance into the Millennial kingdom? Is it possible that someone can be alive at this time, and NOT be a tare, and NOT be a goat, and NOT believe in God?

Will God purge the earth of all unbelievers at this time? Will God send angels to preach to these unbelievers who are left, so they will become believers? When I say "believer" I am meaning a believer in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not just someone who believes in a creative force. It seems very unlikely that Jesus will allow unbelievers into His millennial kingdom.

There is only ONE GROUP that the bible speaks of who are protected until they see Jesus and find out their Messiah is the very one they pierced. There is little doubt that THEY will inherit the earth. It is likely that they will repopulate the nations. Therefore it seems very likely that BELIEVING Gentiles and BELIEVING Jews will inherit the earth.

So which scenario is most likely to produce the most believing Gentlies: a pretrib rapture where there will be seven plus years after the rapture for new believers to begin believing - or a posttrib rapture where there might be a few days?

All flesh will not be destroyed at the battle of Armageddon.

This is true, but most of those not destroyed will be WOMEN.

There will be unbelievers on earth during the millennium

Perhaps in the second or third generation. I don't think God will allow unbelievers to enter His kingdom.

iamlamad · Oct 1, 2015

Riberra said:
The Day of the Lord can be defined as the LAST 24 hours of the present wicked world.
-Jesus coming as a thief will start the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Revelation 16:15. Zephaniah 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

-The great earthquake caused by God , such as was not since men were upon the earth -Revelation 16:18-19,will totally destroy all the cities around the world -and the cities of the nations fell
-The Day of the Lord will culminate with Jesus visible on His white horse at Armageddon during the Battle of the great day of God Almighty .Revelation 16:14 ,Revelation 19:11-21
-The beast and false prophet will be cast into the Lake of Fire Revelation 19:20.
-Satan will be bound into the bottomless pit...Revelation 20:1-2
-After that will begin the Millennium reign of Jesus.

Revelation 16

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Zephaniah 1:14-18
14 The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

The Day of the Lord can be defined as the LAST 24 hours of the present wicked world.

YOU can define it that way - but you will be wrong. Show us scripture to PROVE the DAY is only 24 hours. You will have to make it seem very logical that all the things included in the Day of the Lord in Old Testament scriptures will fit into 24 hours. Then you will have to prove that Paul was mistaken in his rapture timing, for he has shown us that his rapture will come as the trigger for the day, NOT IN THE DAY.

-Jesus coming as a thief will start the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

This is true ONLY if He comes pretrib FOR His church, for that is when the DAY begins. It is written in black and white: John TOLD us when the DAy begins. You are right, it is a DARK day of destruction - yet you want the rapture to happen on such a day. How can you possibly imagine that after the 7 trumpets and 7 vials that people will be thinking "peace and safety?" That would be the last thing on their mind.

Riberra · Oct 1, 2015

iamlamad said:
The Day of the Lord can be defined as the LAST 24 hours of the present wicked world.

YOU can define it that way - but you will be wrong. Show us scripture to PROVE the DAY is only 24 hours. You will have to make it seem very logical that all the things included in the Day of the Lord in Old Testament scriptures will fit into 24 hours.

You try to say that the Day of the Lord prophesied by Zephaniah and the other prophets will last 7 years.So your prediction is 7 years of thick darkness engulfing the Earth non stop.Is that right ?
Zephaniah 1:15
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

iamlamad said:
Then you will have to prove that Paul was mistaken in his rapture timing, for he has shown us that his rapture will come as the trigger for the day, NOT IN THE DAY.

This is YOUR interpretation of what Paul said who is mistaken.
The sudden destruction will come as the trigger of the Day of the Lord -The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night / sudden destruction -Revelation 16:15-21 .....NOT the rapture.
Paul said clearly that
the rapture -caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air- will happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD.1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Postvieww · Oct 1, 2015

Short Timer said:
Lamad is right, If the rapture and second coming was at the same time, no one would be left on earth,

Jesus would remove the righteous, (wheat) Angels would remove the tares, no body left behind???

I agree that some survive the trib "BUT ONLY" because it is shorten, if it wasn't, then "NO FLESH" would survive.

How can you, or anyone say, there is a protected group when the only reason any "flesh" survives is "Because" the trib is shorten???

Mr 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved:

. You seem to be saying two different things in this post. No one will be left behind and some will survive. Can't we just accept what Zechariah wrote?
Let me give you another scenario to consider. Could it just be possible the shortening of days means the length of the day rather than the number of days is what is being referred to? How many days of the 42 months in Rev 13 will God chop off to shorten the tribulation? I believe the answer has to be none or it won't be 42 months.Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. How many of those days can God chop off and his word still come to pass.I still believe none is the correct answer. I believe shortening the length of the days makes more sense. Literally that's what the passage says anyway. Just something to consider.

iamlamad · Oct 1, 2015

Riberra said:
You try to say that the Day of the Lord prophesied by Zephaniah and the other prophets will last 7 years.So your prediction is 7 years of thick darkness engulfing the Earth non stop.Is that right ?
Zephaniah 1:15
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

This is YOUR interpretation of what Paul said who is mistaken.
The sudden destruction will come as the trigger of the Day of the Lord -The Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night / sudden destruction -Revelation 16:15-21 .....NOT the rapture.
Paul said clearly that
the rapture -caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air- will happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD.1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Good try, but still not truth. You can try and separate the catching up from the Day of the Lord, but they are tied together and cannot be separated: one is the trigger for the other. Look at what Paul tells us happens first: it is the dead in Christ rising. But it will only be a split second after that those alive are caught up. And at the very moment the dead in Christ rise, that event causes a worldwide earthquake, which is Paul's sudden destruction - which is the start of the Day of the Lord. These are a CHAIN of events tied together just as the links in a chain are together and cannot be separated.

DON'T Miss this: the dead in Christ rising causes a worldwide earthquake that IS the start of the Day of the Lord. And these events are tied to the 6th seal in Revelation. All these events come "as a thief in the night, because this chain of events begins when Christ descends - as a thief in the night - at a time no one knows.

Again, this entire chain of events will come at a time of "peace and safety." I would like for you to find a time of peace and safety after an earthquake has destroyed every city on the planet! Those few who survive will be scared out of their wits.

iamlamad · Oct 1, 2015

Postvieww said:
. You seem to be saying two different things in this post. No one will be left behind and some will survive. Can't we just accept what Zechariah wrote?
Let me give you another scenario to consider. Could it just be possible the shortening of days means the length of the day rather than the number of days is what is being referred to? How many days of the 42 months in Rev 13 will God chop off to shorten the tribulation? I believe the answer has to be none or it won't be 42 months.Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. How many of those days can God chop off and his word still come to pass.I still believe none is the correct answer. I believe shortening the length of the days makes more sense. Literally that's what the passage says anyway. Just something to consider.

Finally I can agree with you in part. It is written in concrete as we would say today: the Beast will have his authority for 42 months. But the unknown is the days of great tribulation. We don't know how far into the last half of the week before the Beast has his image and mark set up. Then we don't know how long God will let the murders continue until He begins to pour out the vials. So it is very likely that what is shortened is the # of days that the Beast will be hunting down those who refuse to bow to an idol and refuse his mark. One thing seems very clear: after a few of the vials NO ONE will be hunting down those trying to hide. They will be sitting in the darkness, in great pain. I am convinced, God will shorten those days by the vials of His wrath. But the 42 months will still play out.

Why do people believe in a Rapture?

Matthew 4:4

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