Denying Calvinism...

Doctor Octavius said:

Yes, but that doesn't negate his human nature. Your argument would make that verse I just presented impossible.

Edit:



Christ was willing to submit to the will of the Father-- but He did not want to come to the cross, and asked that it somehow would be avoided. Thus Christ may want something, and yet will submit to the will of the Father, in His human nature.



I had pointed out that Christ had just prophecized their condemnation-- a condemnation in fact that we can say did not even apply to any of the people then living, except for a few, but on that generation that would be alive during the destruction of Jerusalem. By definition I did not say Christ was "ignorant of the plan."

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In other words, would you long for, or want, what the father did not want?

Jesus said he does nothing but by the fahter, did the father contradict himself?

Why would the Father long for them to come, when they can't because of He/Him who made it so?

In other words, put them in jail, throw out the key, then say .."Oh I wish you could get out of there"

Michael Collum said:

sounds like a true calvinist would be too calvin for calvin .

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i had that thought also ...

seems to me there is the bible .. then there is how Calvin interpreted the bible .then there is how people interpreted what Calvin said .. then there is present interpretation..
are we bickering over Chinese whispers ?

Doctor Octavius said:

To be perfectly honest with you, I read stuff like this and I remember when I was in your shoes, living in this same bubble. You guys demean the Reformed, but my sense is, most of you are just where I was all those years ago-- not aware of anything that we teach, but only caricatures. And not even knowing what you teach either. Just confusion on top of confusion, compounding on each other, with that evil thing called self-righteousness lurking in the background, empowering you, giving you power even when you reproach yourself. May that evil be beaten to death once and for all!

It took God bringing me down to my knees, showing me, first, the total depravity of myself and others, even the depravity within the temple itself!, before I could learn the doctrines of grace.

What I am now, the distance I have traveled from where I used to be in your shoes, is almost like moving from the Earth to the moon. It is a huge difference, and one I thank God for everyday, even though it required me being beaten into the muck and then thrown into what seemed a bottomless pit. I learned first hand: "all things work together for good for them who love God, who are the called according to His purpose." And once you learn that, there's no going back to the whole "I have to earn it- I have to work for it- I have to do things for Christ." You can rest easy in Christ, knowing you are truly in His hands, and no one can take you out of it-- not even yourself!

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re -It took God bringing me down to my knees, showing me, first, the total depravity of myself and others, even the depravity within the temple itself!, before I could learn the doctrines of grace.

this has nothing to do with your choice of denominational fellowship and everything to do with God at work in your life .. for from within the walls of the Spiritual gifts and the "things of the Spirit ; he has so dealt with my heart the same way .. he is after all the same God we seek and serve

the error we Pentecostals make all too often ,is in thinking experiential gifting give us some kind of spiritual superiority ..but all that means is that we immediately forgot that they are "gifts " .. which means without God ..we would not have them nor would they be manifest in our lives ,nor can they ever be operative in us to full effect except channeled through love and LOVE alone .
the anointing of God that rests upon us , by grace , does not mean he endorses everything we say or do . is it not also so with yourself ? it is so.

Alithis said:

are we bickering over Chinese whispers ?

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Yes

Alithis said:

re -It took God bringing me down to my knees, showing me, first, the total depravity of myself and others, even the depravity within the temple itself!, before I could learn the doctrines of grace.

this has nothing to do with your choice of denominational fellowship and everything to do with God at work in your life .. for from within the walls of the Spiritual gifts and the "things of the Spirit ; he has so dealt with my heart the same way .. he is after all the same God we seek and serve

the error we Pentecostals make all too often ,is in thinking experiential gifting give us some kind of spiritual superiority ..but all that means is that we immediately forgot that they are "gifts " .. which means without God ..we would not have them nor would they be manifest in our lives ,nor can they ever be operative in us to full effect except channeled through love and LOVE alone .
the anointing of God that rests upon us , by grace , does not mean he endorses everything we say or do . is it not also so with yourself ? it is so.

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Thank you for this post! But acknowledging that faith also is a gift, as is our perseverance, are nevertheless enormously important. I was saved for many years in your church, but my early zeal was washed away by too much focus on flashy "spiritual gifts", and when I could not operate in all "gifts" that other people claimed to have, it led to continual feelings of unworthiness, of not doing enough for the LORD. And I remember, I was not alone in this. Plenty of people out there sitting around talking about "missing opportunities" the LORD supposedly offered them, sitting on their knees praying and praying, which really, even with all the language of "gifts" and "grace" just amounts to return to works-righteousness, even if not acknowledged.

When I say that God broke me down and instructed me, I mean that He showed me that my salvation was entirely in His hands. I mean that "all things work together for good for them who love God, who are the called according to His purpose." I mean that all my little terrors, all the hiccups in my life, all the tragedies, all the successes, were shown to not be the result of my walking in and out of God's will, but the result of God working all things for my benefit. This is a view of complete security-- not just for my salvation, but that my life is entirely in God's hands. That when "The lot is cast into the lap", its outcome is not something at random, "but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD" (Pro 16:33). No matters at "chance," no "missed opportunities," just "all things working together for good," even the bad things in our life. And the reason why it is in God's hands is because God loves me-- even when I was dead in sins and an enemy to God, even when, by my own free will, I chose to reject Him.

This is not the view of the Arminian. It is not the view of the Pelagian. It is not the view of the Roman Catholic, or the Benny Hinn. Their views place you in a tenuous space where, ultimately, whether you live or die depends on your own choices, on your own "willing and running"-- but God saves us even from our bad choices, and gives us His grace so that we may walk in his righteousness and do His will, so that our salvation truly isn't "of him that willeth, or him that runneth, but God who sheweth mercy". This amounts to a reversal of what I understood the Gospel to be before. Once it was "what we have to do for Jesus," even if I didn't realize it, even when I thought Jesus was my "focus" in the sense that I was working hard to please him, or that He did "everything" for me! But now it is "what Christ has done for us," to the fullest extent of its meaning And this new focal point changes your entire world.

Since God is not willing that any should perish, why would He predestine some to perish before they were born? Does he contradict Himself?

Again, are we to think, he puts them in jail, throws out the key, then wishes they would come as little chicks?

Cluck..cluck..

Man was created in God's image, and no matter how polluted we have become, darkness never overcomes light.

jiminpa said:

Man was created in God's image, and no matter how polluted we have become, darkness never overcomes light.

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IOW, there is some goodness left in us by which we can "do good" without God, even if it is defaced, but this contradicts a vast array of scripture which all state that we are sinful even from the womb, absolutely condemned even from the moment of our birth, with hearts blinded, and with souls "dead in trespasses and sins." The scripture rightfully declares that there are none righteous, none who seek or understand God. Not "some who are a little righteous," or "they have a little goodness in them, or at least some of them do, which differentiates them from the infidel who rejects Christ."

The Image of God was lost with Adam, and is only regained with "the new man" that comes from Jesus Christ:

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

sure we can do good ..just never good enough ,we fall short .
and there is too much in the parables which show we do have choice , choice to be honest choice to repent ..

odly ..or not ..iv lived my christian walk without any of these titles ..
just trust in the lord Jesus and do what he tells me to do as he tells me to do it ..obedience is itself a fruit

Alithis said:

sure we can do good ..just never good enough ,we fall short .

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Psa_14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Anything good in us is given to us from above. It is not our own. All we have to ourselves is our evil.

and there is too much in the parables which show we do have choice , choice to be honest choice to repent ..

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And there is too much scripture which says "flesh and blood have not revealed it unto thee [that I am the Christ], but my Father who is in heaven."

There is nothing in your flesh that can give you the knowledge of the LORD. Even when God shows miracles to us, we are too wicked even to profit from them, unless He gives it to us.

Deu 29:2 And Moses called all Israel, and said to them: You have seen all the things that the Lord did before you in the land of Egypt to Pharao, and to all his servants, and to his whole land.
Deu 29:3 The great temptations, which thy eyes have seen, those mighty signs and wonders,
Deu 29:4 And the Lord hath not given you a heart to understand, and eyes to see, and ears that may hear, unto this present day.

Doctor Octavius said:

IOW, there is some goodness left in us by which we can "do good" without God, even if it is defaced, but this contradicts a vast array of scripture which all state that we are sinful even from the womb, absolutely condemned even from the moment of our birth, with hearts blinded, and with souls "dead in trespasses and sins." The scripture rightfully declares that there are none righteous, none who seek or understand God. Not "some who are a little righteous," or "they have a little goodness in them, or at least some of them do, which differentiates them from the infidel who rejects Christ."

The Image of God was lost with Adam, and is only regained with "the new man" that comes from Jesus Christ:

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

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I agree with this post.

Alithis said:

sure we can do good ..just never good enough ,we fall short .
and there is too much in the parables which show we do have choice , choice to be honest choice to repent ..

odly ..or not ..iv lived my christian walk without any of these titles ..
just trust in the lord Jesus and do what he tells me to do as he tells me to do it ..obedience is itself a fruit

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Guys in jail can be obedient too. My puppy was obedient.

So, we got dogs and convicts that are obedient, all showing that is no big deal.

Lol your dog is not conscious of guilt and coercion by force is not
Obedience out of love,

You seem to be in a rough place,,you ok froggy
? Seems more bite then usual from you

Doctor Octavius said:

Laugh away, but pride goeth before the fall.

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As you are a very experienced GT forum member under your other user name then I'm sure that you can do better than that. Do you mean that as a 5 Point Calvinist that you don't cringe when you come across people who say that they are Calvinists, but only three, two or even one point Calvinists - are you surprised that an Arminian wouldn't fall over laughing whereas a Calvinist would undoubtedly cringe?

Frogster said:

I don't get why you would ask that, in reply to his comment?

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My comment was somewhat flippant where I was playing on a few words - in all honesty it is probably best forgotten.

Frogster said:

At least Piper stood up and won, against the over rated NT Wright on the NPP junk.

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What was that about? Could you maybe provide a link.

FerventDisciple said:

That would be the doctrine of double predestination, this is too much even for many Calvinists, though Calvin himself taught it.

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Even though an Evangelical and certainly a Pentecostal would be horrified with such a belief where even most Calvinists reject it outright; in spite of its ungodly bearing it does seem to be the natural outworking of Calvinism in that the average Calvinist is playing with words when they say that God predestines some to salvation but he makes no decision about those who will perish. Pipers position at least recognises that God cannot simply either 'ignore' or even 'forget' about these people. It is definitely the chink in the armour of the standard Calvinist.

Too many replies on my part.

Could an arminian say arminianism is the gospel?