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Denying Calvinism...

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Biblicist

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I am just responding . . .
Hey Occy your still here!

I think that you might have missed out where people's heads have turned at a full 360 degrees and where orange smoke has appeared from their nostrils; of course we shouldn't leave out those who have crawled across church ceilings during our meetings - have I left anything out?

I am just responding to the way you speak of the Reformed. It isn't true that we become Charismatics/Arminians once we get into the Spirit.
Having spent decades within the Pentecostal and charismatic movements I have lost count of the number of people who have migrated from a Calvinist mindset to where we would both deem them to be Arminian.

I still encounter the odd long term charismatic who claims to be Calvinist; though as we also see on the various Christian forums, many of these same people will prefer to refer to themselves as being either four, three, two or amazingly even one point Calvinists - as I said earlier, it is simply a fact of life that tends to amuse many of us.
 
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Doctor Octavius

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The GOSPEL of YAHSHUA is the power of God for salvation to those WHO BELIEVE. Not those predestined...

But no one can believe but by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:3). And the reason for that is: you are dead in trespasses in sins and are enemies of God from birth. As long as such verses exist in the scripture, you can't steal from God the glory of man's salvation.
 
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Biblicist

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This is what the deal is. Read Romans 1:16 and that answers my question with a loud false.

The GOSPEL of YAHSHUA is the power of God for salvation to those WHO BELIEVE. Not those predestined...
Umm...does that mean that the Jews are possibly more 'predestined' to salvation than we Gentiles are?
 
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Biblicist

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But no one can believe but by the Holy Spirit (1 Co 12:3). And the reason for that is: you are dead in trespasses in sins and are enemies of God from birth. As long as such verses exist in the scripture, you can't steal from God the glory of man's salvation.
Now that's Arminianism at its finest!
 
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Doctor Octavius

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Now that's Arminianism at its finest!

Only if you add in the line-- "by the Holy Spirit a person is able, from some remote island of goodness in him that is not dead in sin, to submit to the coaxing of the Spirit." Or, in other words, when the will of man meets God half-way, to enable the reception of mercy.
 
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Some immediate objections I suspect your writer can't overcome:

1) It can be retorted that Jacob and Esau were individually elected to be the heads of nations-- one of them as the representative head of the children of promise, the other the "children of flesh." Therefore it can't be claimed that God isn't speaking of individual election. Rather, these men are plainly examples and representatives of each type of individual-- whether a child of wrath or a child of mercy. What applies to them applies to all those like them.

2) The "children of the flesh" represents all unbelievers, whether of Jews or Gentiles. Therefore it can't be claimed that Paul was speaking only of the Jews under the "Covenant of works." All men have been bound to such a covenant since Adam regardless of their race. Also note the parallels: Paul begins by creating the binary between the Children of Promise and the Children of the Flesh. Next Jacob and Esau, who are representative of these respectively. Lastly the Vessels of Mercy and the Vessels of Wrath, of which Pharaoh is also a member of the latter. Therefore the children of the flesh are also the children of wrath, and these are all doomed.

3) Paul is also working to distinguish between national Israel and spiritual Israel. Therefore, we could say: "Not everyone who outwardly should be the child of God is one-- (both Esau and Jacob were circumcised and member's of God's covenant church) there are those who are regenerated, and those who are unregenerate, within the same Church/National Body, and this distinction comes about not by anything a person does, but by God's grace."

4) The writer makes election depend on faith, but the verses explicitly say "it is not of him that wills, or him that runs," thus removing salvation out of the hands of man entirely. Therefore, the writer does not get himself out of the problem (for him)-- that God saves people gratuitously, without any foreseen merits, whether of faith of works, but according to God's good purpose only.

I could go on and on, but this seems enough to sort out that website. As for your verses, I am unsure of your exact argument (your website did not reference them), so I can't reply to them until I know what you mean.



Here are some objections to your interpretation of this verse you will need to get over:

1) Christ here speaks of Himself drawing all men-- but in John 6, Christ speaks of the Father bringing men to Him, and all these are saved: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out... And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (Joh 6:37-39). Therefore, John 12:32-33 cannot be interpreted to mean "Christ draws every individual-- because all those given by the Father to the Son are not lost." It is also possible Christ here speaks of a different sort of drawing, as the agency is changed from the Father drawing men to that of Christ drawing them.

2) In John 6, as previously demonstrated, those men standing right in front of Jesus Christ, who were hearing Him preach, were explicitly described as not having been given by the Father to the Son.

3) John 12:32-33 the "all" can be interpreted as not meaning "every single person," but "all KINDS of men," of every race and tribe, which was a truth abhorred by the Jews. This is consistent with the language of the Jews themselves, who in their Talmud use words like "the world," or "all the men in the world," often times to refer to nations, either all the Gentiles distinguished from the Jews, or all the Jews distinguished from the Gentiles (depending on context), and sometimes even to just all the individuals in a particular city, or of all the Rabbis. The "all" or the "world" only means every single individual when the context explicitly demands it. Such is the peculiar use of language that the Jews make. This same pattern of language is also seen in the scripture, such as when Christ says "I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me" (John 17:9). Thus here Christ differentiates the world from those given to Him out of the world. Later, in Paul's discourse in Romans 3, he declares that no one seeks or understands God. Literally this would make no one a believer, and so it must refer to all men before regeneration. There are many more examples of this type of language, but I think these examples suffice for now.



It is not wise to mind read. Instead, you should address the scriptures I have provided.



Augustine is quite correct that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church-- which, writing in his day, only meant the universal body of Christ. The Papacy had still not yet finished construction.



I don't know this word "counterfactuals" as applied to theology, so can't really reply to it. Looking at your link it seems to mostly just be a battle of philosophy as well (and I am not a philosopher), not of scripture. I also noticed, almost right away, serious misunderstandings of Reformed Theology (but that's normal), so I decided not to bother going through the whole thing or even to attempt a reply. If you'd like to quote something in particular, or bring out their argument in simpler terms for me, I'd be happy to deal with it then.

As for the problem of evil, this is answered very simply with a quick example from scripture:

Gen_50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

It is quite true that nothing happens but by God's determination. And it is testified throughout scripture that even the evil acts of men and of spirits were decreed by God. In this case, the evil here by the brothers against Joseph was ordained to occur by God. But the way that God avoids being called the author of sin is in this: what the brothers did for evil purposes, God meant for good purposes. It is a question of purpose and motivation. A person has it within them always to do evil-- but God, through His omnipotence, is always able to take this evil and use it for His good purposes. So when the Devil attacks Job out of his evil desires, God does it for His good ones. When the brothers, out of jealousy and wickedness, sell their brother into slavery-- God does it for Joseph's sanctification (his growing in faith), as through fire, and to save many more people.

One last verse to consider:

Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

All things couldn't work together for good-- as it did for Joseph and every other believer-- if God does not indeed work all things.



I'd appreciate it if you left off the attacks. I made this account long before this thread ever existed. You reveal your bad nature when you attack me in this way.

Since you've shown that with your posts in this forum spending any significant amount of time responding is fruitless ( and since you're posting cessationism in this forum which will soon result in action from the admins), I'll just address your 3 points on John 12:32-33 as they are common Calvinist arguments.

1) You've made the assumption that those given by the Father are all who are drawn rather than as shown in the text, those who are given are the ones that come to Christ in contrast to those who resist the drawing. Given is not drawn, nor is drawn, given.

2) Again see 1), given and drawn is not the same thing.

3) Ah I was waiting for this as I knew you would stress the word men or people in v32 refers only to kinds not all meaning all. While it indeed does include all types, you've made the assumption because your theology requires it before you even open the bible that it's only some of those types, something which is not in the text. If Christ wanted to say only some, He would have. But your main problem even beyond all that is that the word men or people is not even in the text! It's a supplied word of the translators, the text just says all! If I said I was going to take all of the cookies out of the packet to put them in the cookie jar would you expect me to just put some of them in there? Of course not. Just as here there is no reason to believe that all means some. It's ridiculous. As for John 17:9, this is completely consistent with Arminian theology. Why would Christ pray for those whom He knows will never receive Him and be saved? Of course He prays for His own and not the heathen who reject Him.
 
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Biblicist

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Only if you add in the line-- "by the Holy Spirit a person is able, from some remote island of goodness in him that is not dead in sin, to submit to the coaxing of the Spirit." Or, in other words, when the will of man meets God half-way, to enable the reception of mercy.
As Arminianism rejects that there is any inherit goodness within the unregenerate person then we know that it is only when they respond to God's Word through the leading of the Spirit than anyone can come to the Lord.
 
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Frogster

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This is what the deal is. Read Romans 1:16 and that answers my question with a loud false.

The GOSPEL of YAHSHUA is the power of God for salvation to those WHO BELIEVE. Not those predestined...

The predestination crowd, can say they were predestined to believe..Rib-it.:p

Justified by faith as per 8:30, a predestined act.


30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
 
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Some immediate objections I suspect your writer can't overcome:

1) It can be retorted that Jacob and Esau were individually elected to be the heads of nations-- one of them as the representative head of the children of promise, the other the "children of flesh." Therefore it can't be claimed that God isn't speaking of individual election. Rather, these men are plainly examples and representatives of each type of individual-- whether a child of wrath or a child of mercy. What applies to them applies to all those like them.
An Arminian certainly acknowledges that God can purpose to establish a person or persons to a given role even centuries before they were born. This is the same as a CEO who designs a company leadership structure where he will not only purpose to have various roles established but where a good CEO will probably have a pretty good idea as to the type of person who will fill at least the more senior positions.

The same goes for the Father, he would have purposed to have two men fill the roles of the father of the Jews and where the other would be the father of the Arabs; but this does not mean that he knew everything about them or that he knew what they would say, think or even when they would blow their noses.

Here's where the Arminian position is well balanced in that it certainly recognises that God will purpose to have events or persons in play even centuries before they are needed; but we certainly acknowledge that God does not know every little fine detail about them as this would amount to being a logical impossibility. As I posed the question before, even though God would not know (or need to know) how to make a rock so big that he could not hold it up under his own strength, we fully realise that this does not detract from the attributes of God and the same goes for God not needing to know our every thought and action thousands of years ahead.
 
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The predestination crowd, can say they were predestined to believe..Rib-it.:p

Justified by faith as per 8:30, a predestined act.


30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Don't forget, the hyper-Calvinist John Piper would also say that God also purposes individuals to eternal punishment where they have no opportunity to repent of their sin. Even though this is nothing less than heretical, it is still the logical outworking of Calvinism.
 
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Doctor Octavius

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1) You've made the assumption that those given by the Father are all who are drawn

Christ tells them "no man can come to me unless my Father draw Him." And then explains to the unbelievers the cause of their unbelief by saying "That is why I told you no man can come to me except it were given by my Father." The phrase "no man can come to me except it were given by my Father" is not anywhere in the text. Only "no man can come to me unless my Father draw them" exists there. Therefore, these phrases are interchangeable.

3) Ah I was waiting for this as I knew you would stress the word men or people in v32 refers only to kinds not all meaning all. While it indeed does include all types, you've made the assumption because your theology requires

You call it an "assumption," but I backed it up with textual evidence from the scripture, and can back up the use of such language by quoting the Talmud. Thus it is not an assumption, but a conclusion drawn from how Jews actually use their language. Thus my reading is entirely plausible-- in fact, required, because otherwise it contradicts other Biblical verses.

As for John 17:9, this is completely consistent with Arminian theology. Why would Christ pray for those whom He knows will never receive Him and be saved? Of course He prays for His own and not the heathen who reject Him.

I used that verse only to show that the scripture can use words like "the world," and not mean every individual in the world. But as to this point of yours, it does not say "the heathen who reject him," but those who are "given" by the Father to the Son out of the world, which is the same language as John 6. And there the "giving" by the Father is the cause of coming to Christ, and not anything else. Christ even explains to them that the fact he knew they were unbelievers is the reason why He told them "no man can come to me unless it is given by my Father." This is meaningless for Christ to tel them if the cause of their unbelief is their foreseen rejection.
 
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Doctor Octavius

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As Arminianism rejects that there is any inherit goodness within the unregenerate person then we know that it is only when they respond to God's Word through the leading of the Spirit than anyone can come to the Lord.

So what causes you to differ from the unbeliever who receives the same "leading" of the Spirit and does not come to the Lord?
 
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Frogster

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An Arminian certainly acknowledges that God can purpose to establish a person or persons to a given role even centuries before they were born. This is the same as a CEO who designs a company leadership structure where he will not only purpose to have various roles established but where a good CEO will probably have a pretty good idea as to the type of person who will fill at least the more senior positions.

The same goes for the Father, he would have purposed to have two men fill the roles of the father of the Jews and where the other would be the father of the Arabs; but this does not mean that he knew everything about them or that he knew what they would say, think or even when they would blow their noses.

Here's where the Arminian position is well balanced in that it certainly recognises that God will purpose to have events or persons in play even centuries before they are needed; but we certainly acknowledge that God does not know every little fine detail about them as this would amount to being a logical impossibility. As I posed the question before, even though God would not know (or need to know) how to make a rock so big that he could not hold it up under his own strength, we fully realise that this does not detract from the attributes of God and the same goes for God not needing to know our every thought and action thousands of years ahead.

red above, actually the science community is seeing so much intricate order in the cosmos, and the connection even down to atoms, and galaxies.

God might very well have our hairs numbered.;)
 
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Frogster

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So what causes you to differ from the unbeliever who receives the same "leading" of the Spirit and does not come to the Lord?

Look, Jesus longed to gather them as little chicks, but they would not come!:D
 
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Doctor Octavius

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An Arminian certainly acknowledges that God can purpose to establish a person or persons to a given role even centuries before they were born. This is the same as a CEO who designs a company leadership structure where he will not only purpose to have various roles established but where a good CEO will probably have a pretty good idea as to the type of person who will fill at least the more senior positions.

The same goes for the Father, he would have purposed to have two men fill the roles of the father of the Jews and where the other would be the father of the Arabs; but this does not mean that he knew everything about them or that he knew what they would say, think or even when they would blow their noses.

Here's where the Arminian position is well balanced in that it certainly recognises that God will purpose to have events or persons in play even centuries before they are needed; but we certainly acknowledge that God does not know every little fine detail about them as this would amount to being a logical impossibility. As I posed the question before, even though God would not know (or need to know) how to make a rock so big that he could not hold it up under his own strength, we fully realise that this does not detract from the attributes of God and the same goes for God not needing to know our every thought and action thousands of years ahead.

It seems you are saying that God is not omniscient, which is a bizarre position, so I hesitate to take your meaning at first glance.

Regarding the "chosen to be heads of the Arabs" comment. I already showed that Esau represents the children of the flesh, and what that means. It is not one nation-- Not the Jews under the covenant of works-- not the Arabs-- but all those who are the children of wrath. Jacob, in his turn, represents the Christian, or all those who are true and spiritual members of God's Church, whatever the age.

Thus your position is not "balanced," but flawed, because it is not taught in the scripture.
 
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Frogster

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It seems you are saying that God is not omniscient, which is a bizarre position, so I hesitate to take your meaning at first glance.

Regarding the "chosen to be heads of the Arabs" comment. I already showed that Esau represents the children of the flesh, and what that means. It is not one nation-- Not the Jews under the covenant of works-- not the Arabs-- but all those who are the children of wrath.

Thus your position is not "balanced," but flawed, because it is not taught in the scripture.

yes, Paul did say "we", like the rest of mankind, were objects of wrath. in Eph 2.
 
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Doctor Octavius

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Don't forget, the hyper-Calvinist John Piper would also say that God also purposes individuals to eternal punishment where they have no opportunity to repent of their sin. Even though this is nothing less than heretical, it is still the logical outworking of Calvinism.

You're calling Piper a Hyper-Calvinist? Something tells me you don't know what a Calvinist is.
 
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Doctor Octavius

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yes, Paul did say "we", like the rest of mankind, were objects of wrath. in Eph 2.

Paul says we were "by nature the children of wrath," which refers to our birth, our depraved natures, our walking in the sinfulness of both flesh and mind, prior to the quickening of the Lord. We are not considered the Vessels of Wrath from eternity, but the sheep of God.

Look, Jesus longed to gather them as little chicks, but they would not come!

Christ in His human nature did-- but the Father from eternity had already proposed their damnation.
 
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