Election to Grace

Seeing that mankind is flawed and rebellious against God, who would self-elect and seek God as is needed?

FutureAndAHope said:

Election to Salvation is a topic that I feel is misunderstood. My sister believes in election, and to me it is a repulsive idea. The premise of this idea is that God chooses to redeem certain individuals based upon His choosing, and chooses to damn others. i.e. No one is worthy yet God chooses to redeem a selected few based upon His predetermined choice. I.e. there is no such thing as free will to choose salvation, God chooses for you.

I believe that man chooses via FREE WILL to believe or not believe in Jesus. So why am I talking about election. Well we need to address those scriptures that say that God has foreknowledge. The hero of election, is:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

If you only read that scripture, you might think that God elects people to salvation. However foreknowledge and even foreordination do not have to mean God chooses who will be salved.

My field of expertise is computer programming and I studied all the Artificial Intelligence subjects I could at Uni. I am by no means an expert, however I can say it is possible for God with enough processing power to know all future events with in a system of free will.

God's power to create, using only His voice, is beyond anything we can imagine, His processing power is limitless in comparison to our abilities.

With computers, you can know (for example) all possible outcomes for a chess game. The same principal applies to God's fore knowlwdge, man kind is in a enclosed system, a system 100% in control by God. God limits mankind to a subset of choices, i.e. there may only be 10 sutible marriage candidates for me in my life. There may only be 5 opportunities to receive Christ. God through His infinite wisdom can limit the possible outcomes of his creation to a set that He can control. We look at creation a scoff, oh it is all too random, for God to know the future. But can we know all the possible outcomes of a computer chess game by looking at it, no not at all we are limited. God is unlimited.

God can KNOW, FOREKNOW all possible outcomes in life. He knew us before we were created, not because he made us for destruction, or made us for life, but because his power is infinite. For God can not sin, or tempt any to sin, man chooses to sin. Man also chooses or denies themselves salvation.

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Does the God at the “end of time” know historically everything that happened?

Is the God at the “end of time” the same God at the “beginning of time”?

Is time relative and how relative could time be for God?

If God at the end of time sent back to himself (through some wormhole type system) all the lives including the free will choices ever made by every person, would God know the total life of every person in the future of man?

God would not need to know “every possibility”, but would know exactly what will happen because that is what did happen.

FutureAndAHope said:

The premise of this idea is that God chooses to redeem certain individuals based upon His choosing, and chooses to damn others.

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Look at Titus 3:5, "he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." This where the doctrine of predestination arrives at the basis of God's election, which is of course as stated, "mercy." There are no requirements to be chosen unto salvation, even being that we are in fact chosen.

There is not a reference to a type of predestination for the damned, just indeed that they are. Some sects and different denominations believe in a "double predestination" but it is unbiblical. God's actual active role and presence in salvation is the significant factor of predestination, what I like to refer to as a vague conception of "omnipotence." So in essence one could say predestination is omnipotence + foreknowledge. The unfortunate damnation of those who are, are simply foreknown of God. There is no omnipotence involved in the damnation of man, since that is unnecessary as man can damn himself. So man is not predestined to Hell.

FutureAndAHope said:

i.e. No one is worthy yet God chooses to redeem a selected few based upon His predetermined choice.

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No one is worthy of salvation. Scripture states such in Romans 3:10. God is therefore just in choosing those to be saved, while others are not, as the others are guilty and dead in sin by their choice.

FutureAndAHope said:

I.e. there is no such thing as free will to choose salvation, God chooses for you.

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This statement has many assumption which are taken granted for and not yet proven or even backed by further evidence or reasoning. The first is, "Free will means to choose salvation." The second is, "we chose to be saved." And thrid, God's choosing our salvation negates free will." Scripture indicates all 3 of these statements are incorrect. As it has been noted, we do not choose to be saved, rather we are saved as a result of God's mercy, which has no bearing on our choice or anything. That goes against the 2nd assumption as well.

Regardless of predestination, Scripture still attests to man's responsibility. Thus both free will and predestination are true, which in philosophical terms is dubbed "compatibilism." Determinism and free will are not mutually exclusive. Even then free will exists for the sinner as they chose to live in sin.

FutureAndAHope said:

I believe that man chooses via FREE WILL to believe or not believe in Jesus.

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This is not what Scripture seems to tell us. Yet it is God and His mercy , the sacrifice of Christ, and the indwelling of the Spirit that is cause of our salvation. Scripture is clear this mercy and salvation is not from ourselves.

So why assume free will is relevant to salvation? Where is the definition of that, even Biblically? Support the assumption, "Free will means to choose salvation." An atheist can accept the historical man of Jesus, even now more than ever. So there seems no sense in the idea that "believing in Jesus" is relevant to our free will.

FutureAndAHope said:

So why am I talking about election. Well we need to address those scriptures that say that God has foreknowledge. The hero of election, is:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

If you only read that scripture, you might think that God elects people to salvation. However foreknowledge and even foreordination do not have to mean God chooses who will be salved.

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What does "foreordained" mean?

I'd say to decide or determine before an event. Biblically it is relevant to salvation. It's synonymous with predestination.

The Scripture of discussion reads, "he foreknew, he also foreordained.." It's even as if the two concepts (foreknowledge, and foreordination) are to be differentiated from the statement as it says "he also." So in addition to foreknowing, God acted, displayed that omnipotence I mentioned earlier, to predestine.

So I'd agree that just because God has foreknown of something that it doesn't mean He has predestined it. Though the Scripture is read as quoted above, which again seems to differentiate between "foreknowledge" and "foreordination."

Also, there are more Scriptures than this that mentions predestination ( Ephesians 1:4-5; Ephesians 1:11-12; 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:10).

FutureAndAHope said:

My field of expertise is computer programming and I studied all the Artificial Intelligence subjects I could at Uni. I am by no means an expert, however I can say it is possible for God with enough processing power to know all future events with in a system of free will.

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I'd also agree with this. God has foreknowledge, yet we have free will. Foreknowledge is deterministic in that God infallibly knows from eternity everything. In other words, God knows all propositions about the past, present, and future and their truth values. Otherwise known as logical determinism.

FutureAndAHope said:

With computers, you can know (for example) all possible outcomes for a chess game. The same principal applies to God's fore knowlwdge, man kind is in a enclosed system, a system 100% in control by God.

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The analogy breaks down at some point: God knows not only all possible outcomes, yet all final outcomes of everything. If God were the computer it'd know who wins every individual chess game "inputted" or what have you into the computer. Though your statement here is conflicting with your earlier statements that salvation is up to us. Obviously not going by percentage here I'm sure, but how much "percent" of salvation would you consider within our lifes? You see no matter the answer it makes your 100% less, as God, according to you, is not really in control of our salvation but we are.

FutureAndAHope said:

God limits mankind to a subset of choices, i.e. there may only be 10 sutible marriage candidates for me in my life. There may only be 5 opportunities to receive Christ. God through His infinite wisdom can limit the possible outcomes of his creation to a set that He can control.

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Those 10 marriage candidates and 5 "salvation opportunities" would thus be there for all individuals, making this "subset of choices" not so "limited." Either way God would not be in control 100% of the time as you said above. Predestination isn't even to claim that, but to simply claim God is in control of our salvation 100% of the time.

If God "limits the possible outcomes of his creation to a set that He can control" wouldn't He have done so from eternity? Sounds sort of like predestination, huh?

I struggled with the doctrine for years. My main problem was I could not figure out how God decided who to 'elect' and who not to 'elect'. I still don't know. However, I had a breakthrough which resolved the problem for me.

This is God operating the system. Not my ex-wife, not my psychotic ex-supervisor, not my goofy brother in law, not the state lottery agency or even the multi-state power ball lottery. God operates the 'system' (I don't know what else to call it).

So whatever it is, however it works, it is fair, equitable and even handed for all. To say it isn't is to accuse God of being unfair.

Man is flawed and essentially selfish. Man's ego prevents recognizing a superior being, force or reason for living than self and self-interest. So it is only due to God's influence, the prompting or 'quickening' (in the KJV I think) of the Holy Spirit that brings a human to the point of 'seeking' God.

Yes, you are correct, God wants every human to respond to Him, accept Jesus' sacrifice and be reconciled and made 'right' again. As human were to be from the beginning.

Some will not accept the offer of God, for whatever reason. God is therefore constrained by His own nature to allow them to depart and spend eternity in Hell.

However, to say that man has the choice to accept or reject God is to say that man's choice was instrumental in the salvation process. But man cannot save himself. Not even a little bit.

I mentioned this on another thread and I will repeat it here. The following can be safely understood and believed about the matter.

1. No one in Heaven will ever claim, or be able to claim, to have been forced into Heaven without their consent.

2. No one in Hell will ever claim, or be able to claim, they appealed to God for salvation prior to their death and were refused.

3. No one in Heaven will ever claim or be able to claim they are in Heaven by their own merit.

4. No one in Hell will ever claim or be able to claim they are in Hell unfairly.

And I'm pretty sure it will all make sense when we get there.

Just for the record, Bling's questions and ruminations on the concept of 'where is God in time?' is very much worth considering.

I think the OP is confusing Election/Predestination with a very particular brand of Election/Predestination--namely the Calvinist variety.

Calvinism subscribes to what is usually called Double Predestination, that is, God has in His sovereignty predestined His elect to eternal life through His Son and also predestined the reprobate to eternal damnation. The elect are elect, the reprobate are reprobate, and their fates are sealed.

As a Lutheran I also believe that God has predestined the elect to eternal life through His Son, as that is what Scripture says.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace that he lavished on us." - Ephesians 1:3-8

God chose us, in Christ, before the foundation of the world. That's Election.

Where Lutheranism parts, rather swiftly, with the Calvinist model is that we absolutely reject the notion that God has predestined anyone to damnation. Instead we preach that Christ died for all and that it is the will of God that all be saved. God wills nobody be damned, but all be saved.

This of course is a logical paradox, known in Lutheran circles as the Crux Theologorum, the "Theologian's Cross". That is, it is the burden that a theologian must shoulder because we are left without any means to reconcile the paradox through our reason. Sinners are damned because they choose to be damned, sinners are saved apart from their will only by the free gift of God in Christ Jesus, all who are saved God has predestined to election in Christ having passed over none but calling all to Christ that all might be saved--nevertheless not all will be saved because it is the natural inclination of man to reject God and to choose his own destruction.

-CryptoLutheran

FutureAndAHope said:

Election to Salvation is a topic that I feel is misunderstood. My sister believes in election, and to me it is a repulsive idea.

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Let me give you a suggestion. Don't fault God's plan as repulsive if you don't understand it. Just admit you don't understand it. I fear you are falling into the humanists argument that if God is all powerful and all loving then he would cause all to be saved. You think it unjust for God to create some for hell, but that is exactly what Rom 9:22 says:

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

FutureAndAHope said:

I believe that man chooses via FREE WILL to believe or not believe in Jesus. So why am I talking about election. Well we need to address those scriptures that say that God has foreknowledge. The hero of election, is:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

If you only read that scripture, you might think that God elects people to salvation. However foreknowledge and even foreordination do not have to mean God chooses who will be salved.

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You say you are going to quote scriptures that support election, then only quote one. Let me give you some more since you think it has little support.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
Romans 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

There are many scriptures that talk of the saved being called by God.
1 Corinthians 1:26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called.
1 Corinthians 7:15 God has called us to live in peace.
1 Corinthians 7:20 Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.
... and many more.


Free will is man's attempt to appease the humanist argument. It is an inadequate doctrine that has limited scriptural support. Can you provide some scripture verses for it? Just because we make some choices, doesn't mean we have "free will" to be good or be saved.

If you read scripture there is much support for election. Such is the epitome of God's grace. We are saved even though we don't deserve it.

FutureAndAHope said:

My field of expertise is computer programming and I studied all the Artificial Intelligence subjects I could at Uni. I am by no means an expert, however I can say it is possible for God with enough processing power to know all future events with in a system of free will.

God's power to create, using only His voice, is beyond anything we can imagine, His processing power is limitless in comparison to our abilities.

With computers, you can know (for example) all possible outcomes for a chess game. The same principal applies to God's fore knowlwdge, man kind is in a enclosed system, a system 100% in control by God. God limits mankind to a subset of choices, i.e. there may only be 10 sutible marriage candidates for me in my life. There may only be 5 opportunities to receive Christ. God through His infinite wisdom can limit the possible outcomes of his creation to a set that He can control. We look at creation a scoff, oh it is all too random, for God to know the future. But can we know all the possible outcomes of a computer chess game by looking at it, no not at all we are limited. God is unlimited.

God can KNOW, FOREKNOW all possible outcomes in life. He knew us before we were created, not because he made us for destruction, or made us for life, but because his power is infinite. For God can not sin, or tempt any to sin, man chooses to sin. Man also chooses or denies themselves salvation.

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I also have a computer programming background, but I have a different idea on how God knows everything. This world of his creation has an intelligent design. That means it follows a set of designed rules. We barely know a few of them. It is easy for us to calculate the position of objects in our solar system. This seemed difficult years ago, but now is easy. Every thing created is following a set of rules that God wrote. Therefore it is just as easy for God to know everything at anytime. If one knows the formula, one can "calculate" an answer for anytime.

As far as God being 100% in control of the system/world, I question that. I believe that God has the power to be 100% in control but elects to give Satan some authority/control. My fear is that his dominion is in this world we live in. While God can and has used evil people for his purposes like the punishment of Israel by enemies; I don't think that God controls/dictates all the evil in this world.

We ask/petition in the Lord's prayer for God's will to be done on earth and then acknowledge that God's will is being done in heaven. So I say that God has 100% control of heaven. He also has 2/3 of the angels to battle the other 1/3 that are under the control of Satan. These forces in the heavenly realm influence us on earth in ways we do not see/know or understand. We do have the confidence that God is stronger than Satan such that God's plan will come to fruition even if some under the devil's control try to thwart it.

Can I say I understand it all? No, but I would never accuse God of it being unjust.

Rom 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

FutureAndAHope said:

LOOK BE HONEST HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN: "not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance"...

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That is quite easy to do....if you keep the scripture in context.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)

God is saying that all those that he promises salvation to will come to it.

Who does he promise salvation to? Those who believe in Christ as Lord and Savior.

Who believes in Christ as Lord and Saviour? Those who God chose from the foundations of the world and wrote in the book of life.

I realise that the Bible uses the word "choose" many times, but a rat chooses which way it runs and what it eats...but we don't say that it has Freewill, do we. "Choice" does not imply "Freewill".

deleted - wont let me delete the actual post though

FutureAndAHope said:

I really think the doctrine you believe is sick. Your God, makes mindless drones, some of whom he just sends to hell, he chooses it, and he chose to save a few. And you preach that stuff. I pity the people who listen to you.

God is love, he loves ALL of his creation, some will perish but because they "CHOOSE not a love of the truth".

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You may wish to reconsider that, as you are not the judge of God (although you have no choice in whether you do or not, as that is down to whether God grants you the grace to do so).

• “In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God” (John 1:1)
• “All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3)
• “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7)
• “No one has authority unless it is given them” (John 19:11)
• “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.” (Proverbs 16:4)
• “And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh” (Exo 9:12)
• “I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exo 4:21)
• “Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden” (Romans 9:18)
• “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn” (John 12:40)
• “all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28)
  “Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.” (Matt 10:29)
• “he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4)
• “he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will” (Eph 1:5)
• “written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” (Rev 17:8)
• “whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Rev 20:15)
• “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already” (John 3:18)
• “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day” (john 6:44)
• “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me” (John 10:27)
• “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given” (Matt 13:11)
• “no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. ” (John 6:65)
• “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast ” (Eph 2:8-9)
  

We exist to serve God. It is not the other way around.

FutureAndAHope said:

I really think the doctrine you believe is sick. Your God, makes mindless drones, some of whom he just sends to hell, he chooses it, and he chose to save a few. And you preach that stuff. I pity the people who listen to you.

God is love, he loves ALL of his creation, some will perish but because they "CHOOSE not a love of the truth".

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Please note v3
Psalm 100

1 Make a joyful shout to the Lord, all you lands!
2 Serve the Lord with gladness;
Come before His presence with singing.

3 Know that the Lord, He is God;
It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;
We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.

4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving,
And into His courts with praise.
Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.
5 For the Lord is good;
His mercy is everlasting,
And His truth endures to all generations.

And study to show thyself approved unto God

Here is some good reading on DEFINITE redemption.
SOTERIOLOGY

Archie the Preacher said:

I struggled with the doctrine for years. My main problem was I could not figure out how God decided who to 'elect' and who not to 'elect'. I still don't know. However, I had a breakthrough which resolved the problem for me.

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God chose all those that accepted his offer (charity) and God knew from the beginning of time, who all accepted His charity.

This is God operating the system. Not my ex-wife, not my psychotic ex-supervisor, not my goofy brother in law, not the state lottery agency or even the multi-state power ball lottery. God operates the 'system' (I don't know what else to call it).

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You make some good points and if you do not mine I would like to address them.

So whatever it is, however it works, it is fair, equitable and even handed for all. To say it isn't is to accuse God of being unfair.

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God would have to be fair and is described as being just. Just is also defined in scripture and by Christ’s life and words.

Man is flawed and essentially selfish. Man's ego prevents recognizing a superior being, force or reason for living than self and self-interest. So it is only due to God's influence, the prompting or 'quickening' (in the KJV I think) of the Holy Spirit that brings a human to the point of 'seeking' God.

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Could man at least accept God’s help for selfish reasons?

A soldier fighting a strong enemy can still surrender to his enemy while his enemy is still his enemy. That surrendered soldier might be fully guilty of war crimes deserving of death and may expect no mercy. By just surrendering the soldier is allowing his enemy to shower him with unbelievable underserved unexpected gifts.

Yes, you are correct, God wants every human to respond to Him, accept Jesus' sacrifice and be reconciled and made 'right' again. As human were to be from the beginning.

Some will not accept the offer of God, for whatever reason. God is therefore constrained by His own nature to allow them to depart and spend eternity in Hell.

However, to say that man has the choice to accept or reject God is to say that man's choice was instrumental in the salvation process. But man cannot save himself. Not even a little bit.

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It is not that man is accepting or rejecting God, it is man “wimping out”, not being willing to take the punishment he fully deserves and should have enough pride in himself to accept. There is no pride in accepting pure charity. Salvation is pure charity and you did nothing to have it offered to you.

I mentioned this on another thread and I will repeat it here. The following can be safely understood and believed about the matter.

1. No one in Heaven will ever claim, or be able to claim, to have been forced into Heaven without their consent.

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It was offered as pure charity, but they could reject it?

2. No one in Hell will ever claim, or be able to claim, they appealed to God for salvation prior to their death and were refused.

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What they repeatedly refused was God’s offer of charity (Love/mercy/grace/forgiveness/help) to the point they would never accept it.

3. No one in Heaven will ever claim or be able to claim they are in Heaven by their own merit.

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Amen to that!

4. No one in Hell will ever claim or be able to claim they are in Hell unfairly.

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They chose not to accept God’s offer to the Banquet.

And I'm pretty sure it will all make sense when we get there.

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It makes sense and is logical now.

AnticipateHisComing said:

You think it unjust for God to create some for hell, but that is exactly what Rom 9:22 says:

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

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FutureAndAHope said:

I see this scripture totally differently to you. Where it is said "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" ... this states, to me, that the patient God gave the vessels of wrath time to repent, he bore them patiently, wait for them to repent. BEFORE poring his wrath out on them.

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You fail to read what I highlighted in red he prepared in advance. This applies to both the saved and the destroyed. Please take to heart the rest of Romans 9 and do not dare to fault God and his plan.

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”

FutureAndAHope said:

e.g. 2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance


LOOK BE HONEST HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN: "not wishing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance"...

God can still foreknow everything, even ordain the times of a persons salvation, but leave the choice to the person. He want ALL TO REACH REPENTANCE. Not a subset of creation. God is just not some megalomaniac.

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I as others have quoted many scriptures that support election. You ignore and fail to refute them. You misquote one verse as supporting your position. Desire/wishing for all to be good all the time does not mean it happens in God's plan. God wishing for all to be saved does not conflict with his plan that some were created to perish. Note that the context of your verse is God's patience with the world before ending all evil and bringing judgement on it.

3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”

It has been 2000 years since Jesus' first coming and it may seem to some that he will never come. The delay allows more to be saved. Peter goes on to say that we should speed the coming of Christ. 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. How do we do this? By raising children in Christ and spreading the word. The last day will come when all that have been predetermined to be saved have been saved. This number is known to God. He is patient, allowing the evil to continue until the second coming of Christ until everyone that will be saved has been. This is the allthat your verse is referring to.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

FutureAndAHope said:

Election to Salvation is a topic that I feel is misunderstood. My sister believes in election, and to me it is a repulsive idea. The premise of this idea is that God chooses to redeem certain individuals based upon His choosing, and chooses to damn others. i.e. No one is worthy yet God chooses to redeem a selected few based upon His predetermined choice. I.e. there is no such thing as free will to choose salvation, God chooses for you.

I believe that man chooses via FREE WILL to believe or not believe in Jesus. So why am I talking about election. Well we need to address those scriptures that say that God has foreknowledge. The hero of election, is:

Rom 8:29-30 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

If you only read that scripture, you might think that God elects people to salvation. However foreknowledge and even foreordination do not have to mean God chooses who will be salved.

My field of expertise is computer programming and I studied all the Artificial Intelligence subjects I could at Uni. I am by no means an expert, however I can say it is possible for God with enough processing power to know all future events with in a system of free will.

God's power to create, using only His voice, is beyond anything we can imagine, His processing power is limitless in comparison to our abilities.

With computers, you can know (for example) all possible outcomes for a chess game. The same principal applies to God's fore knowlwdge, man kind is in a enclosed system, a system 100% in control by God. God limits mankind to a subset of choices, i.e. there may only be 10 sutible marriage candidates for me in my life. There may only be 5 opportunities to receive Christ. God through His infinite wisdom can limit the possible outcomes of his creation to a set that He can control. We look at creation a scoff, oh it is all too random, for God to know the future. But can we know all the possible outcomes of a computer chess game by looking at it, no not at all we are limited. God is unlimited.

God can KNOW, FOREKNOW all possible outcomes in life. He knew us before we were created, not because he made us for destruction, or made us for life, but because his power is infinite. For God can not sin, or tempt any to sin, man chooses to sin. Man also chooses or denies themselves salvation.

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Man's will is not free to choose anything but what serves his flesh (ego) until by divine mercy known as "grace" liberates it unto irresistible repentance.
No one is free to love Him until He allows it.
1Cor2:[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man
which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 9 explains further and deals with your questions regarding fairness of justice and jurisdiction, as well as God's reason for having things happen this way:
18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Think about it... if God is omniscient of all possibilities, and is omnipotent over all outcomes, it automatically subordinates and restricts the freedom of, willpower in His creation.