Third Temple is a Wrong Teaching

OneAccordRM said:

Yes or no, Does Israel contain a population of Jews in any capacity that have never left Israel.


We can dance all day, lets cut to the chase.

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Yekcidmij said:

This hasn't been a semantic dance either. I'm just reading what Amos says. I can see from Amos' own writing that he has the Northern Kingdom in mind. It's not semantics - it's reading in context, which in this case is thankfully easy.

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OneAccordRM said:

Yes or no, Does Israel contain a population of Jews in any capacity that have never left Israel.


We can dance all day, lets cut to the chase.

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Yekcidmij said:

Do you agree that Amos is talking about the Northern Kingdom?

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OneAccordRM said:

Not in verses 9:14-15, obviously.

Amo 9:9 "For behold, I am commanding, And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations As grain is shaken in a sieve, But not a kernel will fall to the ground.


If you dont want to answer, that is fine.

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Yekcidmij said:

Amos 1:1 The following is a record of what Amos prophesied. He was one of the herdsmen from Tekoa. These prophecies about Israel were revealed to him during the time of King Uzziah of Judah and King Jeroboam son of Joash of Israel, two years before the earthquake.
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We can see in 1:1 that the king of Israel is Jeroboam, king of the Northern Kingdom. Uzziah is king of Judah, the Southern Kingdom. Already, at the very outset in Amos, Israel is being identified as the Northern Kingdom.

Amos prophecies to Israel, but it should be noted that in that time Israel was synonomous with the Northern Kingdom:

2:6 This is what the Lord says:
“Because Israel has committed three covenant transgressions –
make that four! – I will not revoke my decree of judgment.

2:9 For Israel’s sake I destroyed the Amorites..

3:1 Listen, you Israelites, to this message which the Lord is proclaiming against you!
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For Amos, Israel is the Northern Kingdom. It's Samaria that's the problem:

3:9 ...“Gather on the hills around Samaria!
Observe the many acts of violence taking place within the city,
the oppressive deeds occurring in it.”
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It's Samaria, ie that city in the Northern Kingdom, that is in view here:

3:12 This is what the Lord says:
“Just as a shepherd salvages from the lion’s mouth a couple of leg bones or a piece of an ear,
so the Israelites who live in Samaria will be salvaged.
They will be left with just a corner of a bed,
and a part of a couch.”
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And it's Bethel, another city in the North that's in view:

3:14 “Certainly when I punish Israel for their covenant transgressions, I will destroy Bethel’s altars.
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Samaria again:

4:1 Listen to this message, you cows of Bashan who live on Mount Samaria!
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Bethel again, and Gilgal (also a Northern city):

4:4 “Go to Bethel and rebel!
At Gilgal rebel some more!
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These judgments are on the Northern Kingdom, which is identified by Amos as Israel:

4:12 “Therefore this is what I will do to you, Israel.
Because I will do this to you,
prepare to meet your God, Israel!
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Northern Kingdom cities again are in view regarding this exile:

5:5 Do not seek Bethel!
Do not visit Gilgal!
Do not journey down to Beer Sheba!
For the people of Gilgal will certainly be carried into exile;
and Bethel will become a place where disaster abounds.”
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Here we have the major Northern tribe of Joseph mentioned as the one's being punished for Israel's sin:

5:15 Hate what is wrong, love what is right!
Promote justice at the city gate!
Maybe the Lord, the God who commands armies, will have mercy on
those who are left from Joseph.
5:16 Because of Israel’s sins...

6:6 They drink wine from sacrificial bowls,
and pour the very best oils on themselves.
Yet they are not concerned over the ruin of Joseph.

6:8 ....I will hand over to their enemies the city of Samaria and everything in it.”
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Israel is identified as Jeroboam's kingdom again along with the northern city of Bethel and it's high priest. It's this northen kingdom of Israel that's being identified as the one that will be exiled:

7:9 Isaac’s centers of worship will become desolate;
Israel’s holy places will be in ruins.
I will attack Jeroboam’s dynasty with the sword.”

7:10 Amaziah the priest of Bethel sent this message to King Jeroboam of Israel: “Amos is conspiring against you in the very heart of the kingdom of Israel! The land cannot endure all his prophecies. 7:11 As a matter of fact, Amos is saying this: ‘Jeroboam will die by the sword and Israel will certainly be carried into exile away from its land.’”
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Amos is pretty much a wanted man in Israel and is told to run away to Judah, ie the Sourthern Kingdom centered at Jerusalem:

7:12 Amaziah then said to Amos, “Leave, you visionary! Run away to the land of Judah!
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But Amos refused to go to Judah, since he is called to be in Israel, ie the Northern Kingdom. And it's Israel that will be in exile here, Judah is later:

7:15 Then the Lord took me from tending flocks and gave me this commission, ‘Go! Prophesy to my people Israel!’

7:17 “Therefore this is what the Lord says:....
....Israel will certainly be carried into exile away from its land.’”

8:14 These are the ones who now take oaths in the name of the sinful idol goddess of Samaria.
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So when we arrive in 9:14, it's pretty clear that the prophecies of Amos are about the exile of the Northern Kingdom which is synonomous with Israel. I can only conclude that the restoration from this exile is also about the same Israel that is in view throughout the book:

9:14 I will bring back my people, Israel;
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It seem context is overwhelmingly on my side here. In Amos, Israel is the Northern Kingdom, the one under judgment and so the one that would one day be restored. We can see this in the identification of Israel with the Northern King Jeroboam, the tribe of Joseph, and the numerous cities of the North (Samaria, Bethel, Gilgal). This Israel is explicitly distinguished from the southern kingdom of Judah and it's king.

There can be no doubt that Amos intends 9:15 to be about Israel, the Northern Kingdom.

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Yekcidmij said:

There can be no doubt that Amos intends 9:15 to be about Israel, the Northern Kingdom.

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OneAccordRM said:

Uh.. I hate commentaries, but Im obviously not the first one to figure this out.

I will plant them upon their land - They shall receive a permanent establishment there.

And they shall no more be pulled up - Most certainly this prophecy has never yet been fulfilled. They were pulled out by the Assyrian captivity, and by that of Babylon. Many were planted in again, and again pulled out by the Roman conquest and captivity, and were never since planted in, but are now scattered among all the nations of the earth. I conclude, as the word of God cannot fail, and this has not yet been fulfilled

Clarke-



Amos 9:15

Israel will moreover remain permanently settled in its own land.
And I will plant them … and they shall no more be pulled up, &c.] Cf. Jer_24:6 (“I will plant them and not pull them up” Jer_42:10. For similar promises, see Jer_32:41; Eze_34:28; Isa_60:21; Joe_3:20; and elsewhere. On the question of the non-fulfilment of such promises, see Riehm, Messianic Prophecy (ed. 2, 1891), pp. 238–268. It is to be remembered (1) that they are conditional upon Israel’s worthiness; (2) that the question forms part of a larger one, viz. the nature and extent of the ideal element in the prophets’ pictures of the future, and the degree to which those pictures were coloured by the national and local limitations peculiar to their religion. Cf. p. 32 f., above, with the passages referred to in the footnotes; and comp. also F.H. Woods, The Hope of Israel (1896), chaps. 4 5 10.
thy God] the title, expressive of consolation and affection, as Isa_41:10; Isa_52:7; Isa_54:6; Isa_66:9. The restored nation is pictured naturally by the prophet as penitent and reformed (cf. pp. 31 f., 121); hence Jehovah is no longer its foe (Amo_9:4; Amo_9:8), but can acknowledge it again as His own.

Cambridge-


Amos 9:1-15

Contents: Final prophecy of dispersion of Israel and their ultimate restoration and blessing in the kingdom age.
Characters: God, Amos.
Conclusion: The sword of war is the sword of divine vengeance, for God will thoroughly sift His people who ignore His constant pleadings. Evil is often nearest those who put it at the greatest distance from them (Amo_9:10).
Key Word: Israel’s sifting, Amo_9:9.
Strong Verses: Amo_9:6, Amo_9:10, Amo_9:11.
Striking Facts: Amo_9:11-15. The bringing again of dispersed Israel to their own land is the sure promise of God’s Word. In the coming Kingdom of Christ, the Messiah, Israel shall take deep root in the world, never to be rooted out of it. They shall find in Him the happiness and rest they have so long sought, and God’s favor shall again be with them to give abundance of all good things.

SB-

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jsimms615 said:

I think the text that you quoted just show how courageous men like Amos had to be to preach the word when they faced such hostility.

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jsimms615 said:

I think the text that you quoted just show how courageous men like Amos had to be to preach the word when they faced such hostility.

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Yekcidmij said:

I suppose that can be seen in the text. He has a word of judgment for Israel (Jeroboam's Northern Kingdom) and is told to run away to Judah as he is accused of trying to undermine the king, but he stays in Israel and prophecies anway. That takes some guts.

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Yekcidmij said:

For Amos, "Israel" is the Northern Kingom, which was ruled by Jeroboam in Amos' day. His prophecies are to/for/about Israel-the Northern Kingdom. So when Amos says, "9:14 I will bring back my people, Israel," I can only conclude that he's talking about the Northern Kingdom.

What I am saying about the Samaritans (ie, the northern Israelites) is they never really completely left. They rebuilt their temple sometime in the 5th century BC and seem to have been there ever since. There is evidence in Nehemiah and Ezra that they were already there when the Jewish exiles began filtering back from Babylon, not to mention the records of Sennacherib and Sargon II that indicate they didn't exile all the Israelites/Northern Kingdom.

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OneAccordRM said:

So you refuse to answer the question?

One more chance.

Has any portion of Israel or Judea, prior to 1948 been continuously inhabited in any capacity by the Jews or Israelites, again, in any capacity.


Now, Im not a huge fan of commentaries, simply because Christ made good on his promise that the Spirit teaches all things.

In this case, Ive had to seek out continuity in the commentaries I have, and they in fact, confirm that I am correct.




Like I said, you dont have to answer the question, but its very interesting a Christian would refuse to give an account of the hope that is in him, as it is written.

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jsimms615 said:

Regarding the idea that they never left. When Assyria carried about the northern kingdom into captivity it is entirely possible that some of the poorest of the people were left to cultivate the land. In 2 King 24:14 it says,
"He carried all Jerusalem into exile: all the officers and fighting men, and all the skilled workers and artisans—a total of ten thousand. Only the poorest people of the land were left."
I realize that this is Babylon and not Assyria, but it shows that some nations did this and left the poorest of the people.
2 Kings 17:24 also tell us where some of the people who were in Samaria came from it says, "The king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Kuthah, Avva, Hamath and Sepharvaim and settled them in the towns of Samaria to replace the Israelites. They took over Samaria and lived in its towns."

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Yekcidmij said:

I think it's interesting you're attempting to divert attention from the prooftext you brought up. The text that was supposed to be giving me a hard time seems to be giving you a hard time instead since Amos' prophecy about the Northern Kingdom doesn't fit your eschatological scheme. It seems you didn't consider, or possibly just forgot, that in Amos' time Israel was the Northern Kingdom and Judah was the Southern Kingdom. Amos' prophecies about the judgment and restoration of Israel are about that Northern Kingdom which was ruled by Jeroboam at the time. The text is pretty overwhelmingly clear on this one. Accepting your view on 9:15 would require completely ignoring the rest of what Amos wrote.

The modern state of Israel cannot be the Israel that's in view in Amos 9:14-15. It's never been identified in any way with the Northern Kingdom and it doesn't control much of the territory of the northern tribes. Much of those areas are now controlled by Syria, Jordan, and Palestinian authorities. If you're looking for Nothern Israelites that returned after the Assyrian exile of 721BC, rebuilt and never moved again there is at least some sembance of a candidate in the Samaritans living in the area. They were living in the land after the Assyrian conquest, they did rebuild, and they are still there. Many of them seem to have even been pursuaded in early Christianity that Jesus is the Messiah.

I'm not sure what else there is to look for in regard to Amos 9:15.

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Yekcidmij said:

The modern state of Israel cannot be the Israel that's in view in Amos 9:14-15. It's never been identified in any way with the Northern Kingdom and it doesn't control much of the territory of the northern tribes.

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Originally Posted by jsimms615

Regarding the idea that they never left. When Assyria carried about the northern kingdom into captivity it is entirely possible that some of the poorest of the people were left to cultivate the land. In 2 King 24:14 it says,
"He carried all Jerusalem into exile: all the officers and fighting men, and all the skilled workers and artisans—a total of ten thousand. Only the poorest people of the land were left."
I realize that this is Babylon and not Assyria, but it shows that some nations did this and left the poorest of the people.
2 Kings 17:24 also tell us where some of the people who were in Samaria came from it says, "The king of Assyria brought people from Babylon, Kuthah, Avva, Hamath and Sepharvaim and settled them in the towns of Samaria to replace the Israelites. They took over Samaria and lived in its towns."
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Yekcidmij said:

Right. That was one of my points.

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Interplanner said:

What if the "land" they were expecting after exile was not of this earth?.

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