12th February 2003 at 05:53 AM Rize said this in Post #144
...So where did this great multitude from all the nations come from if they aren't the raptured church?...
I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).
12th February 2003 at 05:53 AM Rize said this in Post #144
...Revelation 6 does not have to show Jesus coming. The sign in the sun, AND moon and stars makes the location unmistakable...
Note again that the fact that the sun is darkened at the 6th seal may not be prima facie evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as in Matthew 24:29, for the sun is equally darkened in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2). So the sun may be darkened more than once: twice in the tribulation and then again after the tribulation. Also, at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all (Matthew 24:29). So I think the 6th seal event may not be the same event as the one after the tribulation.
Again, we know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So the 6th seal meteoritic event may not be the same as the one after the tribulation.
12th February 2003 at 05:53 AM Rize said this in Post #144
...the people of earth cowering in fear since "the great day of [the Lamb's] wrath has come, and who can stand?"...
I think that Revelation 6:16-17 could be the terrified hyperbole of the unsaved, that they can't actually see the face of the Father sitting on his throne in heaven (Revelation 5:7), and that the 6th seal may not actually be God's wrath. Note that those in heaven don't say God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 16:1).
I think John could be seeing a cataclysmic event that precedes the trumpets, which may be an historically unprecedented volcanic eruption which will trigger devastating earthquakes all around the world, and which will fill the atmosphere with ash, blocking the light from the sun and making the moon appear blood red. I think this could be accompanied (possibly triggered) by a storm of large meteorites, "falling stars," which will hit the ground, and atmospheric explosions of those which don't make it to the ground.
When they see these horrors, the unsaved will no doubt believe they're all going to die, as "seeing the face of God" means death (Exodus 33:20), and that these events are God's wrath. But God's wrath may not be come in the 6th seal, nor in the 7th, nor in the 7 trumpets. God's wrath may not be come until the final stage of the great tribulation, the 7 vials (Revelation 16), which aren't directed at believers.
12th February 2003 at 05:53 AM Rize said this in Post #144
...the last trumpet of God is distinguishable from the trumpet judgments which are executed by angels...
Does Revelation say the trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? Isn't it possible that God's judgment may not begin until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and that none of them will be directed at us Christians?
I personally don't believe that the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) is the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), but that the rapture trumpet will sound "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 vials are finished. I don't believe that Revelation shows Jesus coming or the Antichrist being destroyed at the 7th trumpet, for the Antichrist is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21), after the vials (Revelation 16). I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.
Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:12, so that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).
12th February 2003 at 05:53 AM Rize said this in Post #144
...But they have bodies! If they were just tribulation martyrs, they would merely be souls...
Note that the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) don't have to have resurrected bodies in order to wear white robes, for the souls under the altar also wear white robes (Revelation 6:11).
12th February 2003 at 05:53 AM Rize said this in Post #144
...we are to keep watch...
Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).
Compare: "Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). I believe Matthew 24:44 is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Jesus will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise we would be saying that as long as we're ready and thinking he will come he can't possibly come.