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The Revlation of the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by carlaimpinge, Jan 18, 2003.

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  1. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that the great multitude being in heaven doesn't require that the rapture has occurred, for when their bodies die, the spirits of believers go into heaven to be with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:21-24, Luke 23:43, Luke 23:46, Acts 7:59).

    Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds. And if Christ is in heaven with the great multitude (Revelation 7:17), and they had to have been raptured, then Christ would have had to have "descended from heaven" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) to rapture them, then ascended back into heaven, only to have to descend from heaven all over again to destroy the Antichrist at Armageddon (Revelation 19:19-21), making the 2nd coming (parousia) really the 3rd coming (parousia). I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.

    Note that nothing requires that the total number of martyrs has been fulfilled (Revelation 6:11) by the time the great multitude is seen in heaven (Revelation 7:9). I believe the martyrs who are under the altar before the throne (Revelation 6:9) could still be under the altar before the throne by the time the great multitude is seen in heaven.
     
  2. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but in the 5th seal they are under the throne waiting for the number of martyrs to be completed!  After the 6th seal they are out from under the throne (implying the completion of martyrs and thus the ending of the AC's persecution), and they are identified as a great multitude who came out of the great tribulation.  And this immediately after the sign of Jesus' coming (sign in the sun moon and stars, Mathew 24, Rev 6:15-17).  This is rock solid man.

    The higher than the clouds thing is circumstantial.  No verse says that anyone's going back down either.  As for the location of Christ, do you think heaven was vacant when Jesus was on Earth?  :)  Come on.  Jesus said that he is in the father and the father is in him.  How can we look upon Jesus and say, "show me the father?"  Additionally, how could we look upon the father in heaven and ask "show me Jesus".

    I believe that Christ's parousia begins with the Day of the Lord and rapture (pretty much simultaneous) and doesn't end until it ends.  Christ does not have to be bodily present on earth (though he may very well be in one place or another) for his presence to be there.

    We probably have a different understanding of the "trinity".

    Ok, so who is this multitude if there is still another (very similar) multitude under the throne?  The guys under the throne are martyrs waiting for their numbers to be completed.  If the people in front of the throne aren't martrys, then why are they "come out of the great tribulation"?  If they aren't martyrs, then they were raptured for sure!  If they are martyrs, then they're not under the throne which strongly suggests that their number is complete (meaning the AC's persecution is over and the rapture has occured at the onset of God's wrath).

    You're in a spot here.

    And why do you hold to extreme post-trib (which lets us know the day and hour of Jesus coming pretty well)?

    I've come to terms with the meaning of parousia and what it means for Christ to be "present", and also with the "coming" in Revelation 19:11-16 which I don't believe is necessarily a coming at all.  If there was no evidence for pre-wrath, then I wouldn't have looked so closely at those thing.  But there is so much info that pegs the rapture as between the 6th and 7th seals (and thus before the trumpets)

    The only thing that goes against me is the "last trump" thing.  However, I believe there is some OT scripture where God himself is using a trumpet.  The trumpet judgments are ministered by angels, so perhaps there is a difference there.
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that Revelation 7 doesn't say that the martyrs under the altar (Revelation 6:9) are out from under the altar, or that they are the great multitude (Revelation 7:9), or that the number of martyrs has been fulfilled (Revelation 6:11), or that the Antichrist himself has even begun his persecution of believers (Revelation 13:7-10).

    Note that Revelation 6 doesn't show Jesus coming or the Antichrist being destroyed at the 6th seal, for the Antichrist is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21), after the vials (Revelation 16). I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.

    The fact that the sun is darkened at the 6th seal may not be prima facie evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as in Matthew 24:29, for the sun is equally darkened in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2). So the sun may be darkened more than once: twice in the tribulation and then again after the tribulation.

    Also, at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all (Matthew 24:29). So I think the 6th seal event may not be the same event as the one after the tribulation.

    We know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So the 6th seal meteoritic event may not be the same as the one after the tribulation.

    I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).
     
  4. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    The great multitude may not be the martyrs.  I just realized that the martyrs are resurrected (bodily) at the start of the 1000 year kingdom and at that point they are still referred to as souls.

    So where did this great multitude from all the nations come from if they aren't the raptured church?  I don't believe the Bible teaches a second and third coming of Christ either.  And neither did the old testament, but that didn't stop Jesus from coming once, leaving and then promising to come again (to fulfill the rest of the prophecies).  Whenever Jesus' coming is referred to, the word is "parousia".  This word isn't used in Revelation anywhere, but Jesus told us when it would begin.  At the sign in the sun moon and stars.  The presence of the wrath of God is a clear indication that the parousia has begun.  As Christ physically coming and going during this period, it appears that he may need to do this a few times.

    You should read Robert Van Kampen's The Sign.  If you've already read it, you should read it again.

    Revelation 6 does not have to show Jesus coming.  The sign in the sun, AND moon and stars makes the location unmistakable.  As does the last seal being broken which clearly initiates God's wrath.  The 5th trumpet merely darkens the sun, moon and stars by 1/3, this is not the same as the clear sign in the sun, moon and stars that is spoken of all over the Bible.  Additionally, this trumpet does not also have the people of earth cowering in fear since "the great day of [the Lamb's] wrath has come, and who can stand?"

    Exactly why do you choose to ignore this?  It must be the last trumpet thing.  Well, what you feel to realize is that it is not just the last trumpet, but the last trumpet of God (1 Corinthians 15:52).  God actually uses a trumpet in Zechariah 9-14-15.  Thus the last trumpet of God is distinguishable from the trumpet judgments which are executed by angels.

    PostTrib said: "I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6)."

    But they have bodies!  If they were just tribulation martyrs, they would merely be souls!

    As for the day and hour, that is just wishful thinking.

    Mathew 25:13 make sit clear that we are to keep watch because we won't know the day or hour.  As for the spirit guiding us into truth, that is out of context.  I think that it is clear that we are not going to know exactly when Jesus is coming back.  That's why we have to keep an eye out for the signs.  Jesus didn't even know!  How much clearer can you get!  The clear teaching is that we were going to have to keep watch and be faithful.

    Now the book of Daniel is another story entirely.  Apparently, there will be a group of unsaved Jews that Jesus will save after the rapture.  This is the group who are instructed by the book of Daniel to persevere to the end of the 1290 days.

    You need to read The Sign (again if necessary).
     
  5. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).

    Note again that the fact that the sun is darkened at the 6th seal may not be prima facie evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as in Matthew 24:29, for the sun is equally darkened in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2). So the sun may be darkened more than once: twice in the tribulation and then again after the tribulation. Also, at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all (Matthew 24:29). So I think the 6th seal event may not be the same event as the one after the tribulation.

    Again, we know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So the 6th seal meteoritic event may not be the same as the one after the tribulation.

    I think that Revelation 6:16-17 could be the terrified hyperbole of the unsaved, that they can't actually see the face of the Father sitting on his throne in heaven (Revelation 5:7), and that the 6th seal may not actually be God's wrath. Note that those in heaven don't say God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 16:1).

    I think John could be seeing a cataclysmic event that precedes the trumpets, which may be an historically unprecedented volcanic eruption which will trigger devastating earthquakes all around the world, and which will fill the atmosphere with ash, blocking the light from the sun and making the moon appear blood red. I think this could be accompanied (possibly triggered) by a storm of large meteorites, "falling stars," which will hit the ground, and atmospheric explosions of those which don't make it to the ground.

    When they see these horrors, the unsaved will no doubt believe they're all going to die, as "seeing the face of God" means death (Exodus 33:20), and that these events are God's wrath. But God's wrath may not be come in the 6th seal, nor in the 7th, nor in the 7 trumpets. God's wrath may not be come until the final stage of the great tribulation, the 7 vials (Revelation 16), which aren't directed at believers.

    Does Revelation say the trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? Isn't it possible that God's judgment may not begin until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and that none of them will be directed at us Christians?

    I personally don't believe that the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19) is the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), but that the rapture trumpet will sound "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 vials are finished. I don't believe that Revelation shows Jesus coming or the Antichrist being destroyed at the 7th trumpet, for the Antichrist is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21), after the vials (Revelation 16). I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.

    Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:12, so that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    Note that the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) don't have to have resurrected bodies in order to wear white robes, for the souls under the altar also wear white robes (Revelation 6:11).

    Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

    Compare: "Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). I believe Matthew 24:44 is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Jesus will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise we would be saying that as long as we're ready and thinking he will come he can't possibly come.
     
  6. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    It seems like you're ignoring what I'm saying and repeating what you're saying which is making me repeat what I'm saying.

    "Note again that the fact that the sun is darkened at the 6th seal may not be prima facie evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as in Matthew 24:29, for the sun is equally darkened in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2). So the sun may be darkened more than once: twice in the tribulation and then again after the tribulation. Also, at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all (Matthew 24:29). So I think the 6th seal event may not be the same event as the one after the tribulation.

    Again, we know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So the 6th seal meteoritic event may not be the same as the one after the tribulation."


    I've already addressed this.  The 5th trumpet is only a third darkening of the heavenly bodies.  And the Revelation six passage is accompanied by people who are saying that the great day of the lord's wrath has come.  Certainly you're not implying that the 5th trumpet is that sign?

    Revelation 6 repeats (using very similar language) to Mathew 24, that the stars will fall from the sky.  It could be a meteor shower, but there are only three meteoric events among the trumpets.  No showers.

    As for the "terrified hyperbole of hte unsaved" I think you're stretching things terribly.  And I don't understand why (other than that you are defending extreme post-trib, but I don't see why you are defending it against clear scripture which teaches the contrary).

    I just don't have the energy to keep at this (primarly Sauron's fault, not yours; check my thread history and look for the Islam thread :sigh: ).

    Go read The Sign if you want to learn more.
     
  7. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    I really dont mean to bud in here, which i am not since now Rize said he is finished with this, even still its a discussion board.

    Posttrib and Rize, you both are correct(and this is my belief here, which i have studied carefully).  How can you both be correct? Because something was missed here.  The lamb holds a scroll written on inside and on the back, and sealed. He holds this one object in His hand.

    Have each of you yet noticed that the seals reveal events seen from heavens perspective?  Each seal reveals what happens in heaven, nothing seen by earth.  When the last seal is openned what is left? The contents of the scroll are now visible.  And is marked by 'silence in heaven'. Heavens view of the 7 years is finished, and the scroll is revealed. What are the contents of the scroll?  The trumpets.  They are not trumpets that belong to the angels, they are "given" to them, they are Gods trumpets.  The trumpets reveal what happens on earth. The seals are heavens view, the trumpets affect those on earth. In a sequential timeline, if the trumpets are FOLLOWED by the seals, why such a shift in perspective?  Why does the heavenly view suddenly end and a new view begin if they follow each other as happening 'one after the other'?   Because they dont.

    The Lamb is openning AND reading the entire scroll, and i believe its openned on the day of the Lord itself, since John is in the spirit 'on the Lords Day'. It is openned AFTER the events recorded in and on it, are completed.  Its a final decree, the judgement of the times recorded therein. The beginning of Chapter 4 shows the throne room, complete with elders, like as a day of court.  The scroll gives account of all that took place throughout the 7 year period, one from heavens view(the seals of God), the other from earths view(the trumpets of God) like evidence presented to the judge which justifies the wrath to follow.

    So when Rize sais the 6th seal is after the rapture, he is correct. And when Postrib sais the rapture is after the trumpets he is also correct.  

    Consider:

     1st seal(heavens view):the white horse sent to conquer

     1st trumpet(earths view) vegetation burned and destroyed 

     2nd seal: horse causing conflict on earth. 2nd trumpet, seas are bloodied(war does this, like Normandy beach in Germany)

    3rd seal: rider causing scarcity. 3rd trumpet, bitter water, no clean water? scarcity is not conflicting here

    keep in mind, during the 4th year, the middle of the 7 years begins(3 and a half) 

    4th seal: rider Death, killing.  4th trumpet the days are shortened to a third(Matt. sais the days are shortened) and the 3 woes announced(3 woes? trumpets 5, 6 and 7).

    5th seal: martyrdom begins.  5th trumpet locusts from the botomless pit. Note the Jews who are sealed does not omit Christians who are sealed..Eph.4:30 sais we are ALREADY sealed by the Holy Spirit. Also note, this would be the first full year of the beasts reign and the 1st woe.

    6th seal: actually covers 2 years(6 and 7, combined into one time, as in 'time, times and half a time') At its conclusion, the sun is darkenned, the moon gives no light and the heavens depart. The end of this time is completed, the multitude "serve Him day and night in His temple". The 6th trumpet, the angels from Euphrates, and the announcement of why time is delayed and the 7th trumpet warning is not sounded. The 2 witnesses time is also concluded.

    note: the second woe is past, and the third woe is coming quickly. "Behold, I come quickly".   

    the 7th seal: silence in heaven.  the 7th trumpet: end of the mystery, the Lord comes into His Kingdom, the ark of the covenenant is seen. The spiritual picture of the beasts persecution of the remnant of the womans seed, the end of sin, and the reaping of the earths vine. Jesus is the true vine.

    The seals show us the time from heaven, the trumpets show us the time in earth, which heaven of course also sees.  If the last trump is heard by that which is spiritual, then all of them are. I believe, as each trumpet is sounded at the beginning of each year, it is heard by unseen spirits(angels, devils, God, etc...) AND the saints who have the Holy Spirit.  I could be wrong there, and it may be heard by ALL. They are a call to repent and wake up.  Notice during the trumpet accounts, it keeps saying, "and they did not repent".   The final trumpet is not blown to warn, as the others, but it waits till the end of the year, to finish the mystery.

    This view coincides perfectly with Matthew 24 btw. Check it out.

    There's my very brief conclusion of the scroll as it pertains to the 7 year period.  If you can find any conflict as to how this is not possible, please show me.

    EveOfGrace

             

     
     
  8. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    I suppose this is possible, but I really don't agree with it.

    Read Revelation 8 again.  The trumpets are clearly (imo) after the seals in sequence.  They also represent clear judgments of God imo.  This goes with my supposition that the Day of the Lord has begun at this point.

    The 7th trumpet represents the end of the 7 years.  The opening of God's temple goes with the start of the bowl judgments (which occur in the 30 day period after the 7 years I think)

    Finally, I think the 5th Trumpets refererence to "seal of God on their forehead" is a clear reference to only the 144,000.  Going to a different author (Paul) and book (Ephesians) isn't likely to be relevant when Paul wasn't even talking about end-times to begin with.

    I want to try and move all of this to the new thread I made.  The Pre-wrath verses Posttrib thread.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/35690.html
     
  9. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that it doesn't refer to "a third darkening" in Revelation 9:2.

    Don't unbelievers say all sorts of wrong things in John's writings that aren't corrected? Should we believe that Jesus "deceiveth the people" because of what some unbelievers say in John 7:12? Should we believe that "out of Galilee ariseth no prophet" because of what some unbelievers say in John 7:52? Should we believe that because "we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is" (John 7:27) that Jesus must not be the Christ? If not, then should we necessarily believe that "the great day of his wrath is come" in the 6th seal because of what some unbelievers say in Revelation 6:17?

    Note that just as "the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth" (Revelation 12:4) doesn't have to be referring to Matthew 24:29, so "the stars of heaven fell unto the earth" (Revelation 6:13) doesn't have to be referring to Matthew 24:29.
     
  10. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that the seals also affect those on the earth (Revelation 6:8, 13-14). 

    Note that the seals are followed by the trumpets, for the 7 angels aren't given the 7 trumpets until after the 7th seal has been opened (Revelation 8:1-2, 6-7).

    I believe that in Revelation 1:9-10 John is simply saying that he was on the Isle of Patmos in a spiritual trance (compare Acts 10:10, 11:5, 22:17) on a Sunday (compare Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2).

    I believe that each of the seals, trumpets, and vials brings a different event. Comparing the 1st seal (Revelation 6:2), 1st trumpet (Revelation 8:7), and 1st vial (Revelation 16:2), note that there's no correlation between the events.

    Comparing the 2nd seal (Revelation 6:4), 2nd trumpet (Revelation 8:8-9), and 2nd vial (Revelation 16:3), note that there's no correlation between the 2nd seal and the 2nd trumpet. While there's some correlation between the 2nd trumpet and the 2nd vial insofar as they both affect the sea, I believe these are separate events because at the 2nd trumpet only 1/3 of the sea turns to blood, while at the 2nd vial, at the end of the tribulation, the entire sea turns to blood.

    Comparing the 3rd seal (Revelation 6:5-6), 3rd trumpet (Revelation 8:10-11), and 3rd vial (Revelation 16:4), note that there's no correlation between the 3rd seal and the 3rd trumpet. While there's some correlation between the 3rd trumpet and the 3rd vial insofar as they both affect the waters, I believe these are separate events because at the 3rd trumpet only 1/3 of the waters are turned into wormwood by a star falling from heaven, while at the 3rd vial, at the end of the tribulation, all the waters are turned into blood by an angel pouring out a vial.

    Comparing the 4th seal (Revelation 6:8), 4th trumpet (Revelation 8:12), and 4th vial (Revelation 16:8), note that there's no correlation between the 4th seal and the 4th trumpet, and the 4th vial affects the sun in the opposite manner as the 4th trumpet.

    Comparing the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1-11), and 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), note that there's no correlation between the 5th seal and the 5th trumpet. While there's some correlation between the 5th trumpet and 5th vial insofar as they both bring darkness and pain, I believe these are separate events because the 5th trumpet doesn't mention the kingdom of the beast and the 5th vial doesn't mention the locusts.

    Comparing the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-17), 6th trumpet (Revelation 9:13-19), and 6th vial (Revelation 16:12), note that there's no correlation between the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet. While there's some correlation between the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial insofar as they both refer to the Euphrates, I believe these are separate events because the 6th trumpet refers to the army of horseman as being of the four angels in the Euphrates and they slay 1/3 of mankind, whereas the 6th vial refers only to the kings of the east and it doesn't say they slay anyone, but are most likely slain by Christ (Revelation 19:21).

    Comparing the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1-2), 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19), and 7th vial (Revelation 16:17-21), note that there's no correlation between the 7th seal and the 7th trumpet. While there's some correlation between the 7th trumpet and 7th vial insofar as they both refer to an earthquake and great hail, I believe these are separate events because the 7th trumpet doesn't mention Babylon (Revelation 16:19), and the 7th vial doesn't mention the opening of the temple in heaven (Revelation 11:19), out of which opening I believe the 7 vials subsequently come (Revelation 15:5-6).
     
  11. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    I meant the 4th trumpet not the 5th.  Revelation 8:12.  In the 5th trumpet, there is simply a general darkening of the sky.  Neither of these are the same as the explicit sign that Jesus gave which is repeated clearly in Revelation 6 at the sixth seal's breaking.

    I answer the rest of this in the new thread.  Basically, there is no indication that the unbelievers are wrong in saying the day of the Lord has come.  On the contrary, there is every indication that they are right.

    As for all of your obfuscating references to other times in which heavenly bodies are merely "darkened" or that stars fall from the sky, the very clear sign of the Day of the Lord is still perfectly distinguishable from these events because it involves a dramatic event involving the complete darkening of the sun, the moon not giving it's light, and the stars falling all in conjunction.  This is word for word, what jesus said in his olivet discourse in three of the gospels.  Look at Luke 22:25-28. 

    The only thing that is preventing you from seeing this as the same sign as in Revelation 6 is the doctrine you are peering through.
     
  12. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Does Revelation say the trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? Isn't it possible that God's judgment may not begin until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and that none of them will be directed at us Christians?

    I believe the day of the Lord will begin at the 2nd coming, and is the day we wait for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), watch for (1 Thessalonians 5:2-6), and will rejoice in (2 Corinthians 1:14).

    "Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord" (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

    "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

    "We are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord" (2 Corinthians 1:14).

    Paul said the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) and the Lord said he will come as a thief (Matthew 24:43-44), and there's no 3rd coming of the Lord.

    I believe the subject of 2 Peter 3:4-10 is the promise of the Lord's 2nd coming: "Where is the promise of his coming?... The Lord is not slack concerning his promise... the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night" (2 Peter 3:4, 9, 10).
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that if "the sun and the air were darkened" of Revelation 9:2 doesn't have to be referring to "the sun be darkened" of Matthew 24:29, then "the sun became black as sackcloth of hair" (Revelation 6:12) doesn't have to be referring to "the sun be darkened" of Matthew 24:29.

    Note that Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't mention the earthquake of the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12); he only refers to the powers of "the heavens" being shaken. Could the earthquake of the 6th seal be included in the earthquakes of Matthew 24:7, and the war and famine of the 2nd and 3rd seals (Revelation 6:3-6) be included in the wars and famines of Matthew 24:6-7, all of which occur prior to the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15, just as all of the seals of Revelation 6 occur prior to the rule of the Antichrist of Revelation 13?

    Could the fearful signs in the sun, moon, and stars in the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) be the "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (Luke 21:11) which will occur before the 42-month treading down of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2) during the 42-month reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5)?

    Note that those in heaven don't say God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 16:1).

    Again, don't unbelievers say all sorts of wrong things in John's writings with no indication given by John at that time that they are incorrect? Should we believe that Jesus "deceiveth the people" because of what some unbelievers say in John 7:12 with no indication given by John at that time that they are incorrect? Should we believe that "out of Galilee ariseth no prophet" because of what some unbelievers say in John 7:52 with no indication given by John at that time that they are incorrect? Should we believe that Jesus must not be the Christ because some unbelievers say "we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is" (John 7:27) with no indication given by John at that time that they are incorrect? If not, then why should we necessarily believe that "the great day of his wrath is come" (Revelation 6:17) simply because of what some unbelievers say?

    Note that at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all (Matthew 24:29). So I think the 6th seal event may not be the same event as the one after the tribulation.

    Note just as "the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth" (Revelation 12:4) doesn't have to be referring to Matthew 24:29, so "the stars of heaven fell unto the earth" (Revelation 6:13) doesn't have to be referring to Matthew 24:29.
     
  14. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    US-Libertarian
    We believe the same things post-trib.  Only you place the Day of the Lord at Revelation 19 and I place it at the 7th seal.

    That's the only difference.

    Your compelling reason for accepting Revelation 19 as the only possible candidate is that there will be only one second "coming" of Christ.  My reason for accepting the 7th seal is the compelling similarity between Mathew 24 and Revelation 6-8 which focuses on the sign in the sun, moon and stars.

    Your answer to me is that the people on earth who say that the day of the Lord's wrath has come are simply mistaken and that the trumpets, no matter how wrath-like they appear, are not really God's wrath (not the Day of the Lord wrath anyway).

    My answer to you is that Jesus appears on Mount Zion before armageddon anyway (Revelation 14) and that "coming" is really the Greek word parousia which means presence (thus allowing for multiple comings and goings during the Day of the Lord pariousia of Jesus).

    I like my answer to you better than your answer to me :)
     
  15. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    US-Libertarian
    You want my honest opinion?  Then no it couldn't.  Jesus wouldn't have given all of those details of a sign if it were that easy to mistake.  If it is, then it's a really stupid sign.  There is only one candidate in Revelation that fits the sign Jesus described and it's at the 6th seal.  It fits like a well made glove.  I can not reject it without extraordinary evidence to the contrary.  The absence of the earthquake is incidental.  There are many earthquakes all throughout Revelation.  The 6th seal is when all of the signs of the Day of the Lord (Old and New Testament) come together.  I'm not going to reject it just because a measily earthquake isn't mentioned (though the shaking of the powers of heaven could refer to an earthquake).

    Did you read all of those OT references I gave you?  Especially Isaiah 34:4 which includes yet another clear sign of the Day of the Lord (the sky rolling of like a scroll).  If you have a study Bible, trace all of the study notes concerning the sixth seal.  It is unmistakable.  That is the sign of hte Day of the Lord.

    There is compelling evidence that the activities of the Beast described in Revelation 12 - 14 do not occur chronologically in that location.

    Also, those in heaven say that God's wrath "came" according to my NASB.  I've ordered an extremely literal Bible with emphasis marks (for things that don't translate into English).  Perhaps that'll shed some light on things like that.

    And when is the moon's light blood red?  That is not the moon's light, it is something else which looks like the moon.  Anyway, it doesn't say that it stays red, and additionally, in Luke 21, it's simply referred to as a general sign in the sun moon and stars.

    Again, with all of the other indicators, it is unmistakable.

    And you are side tracking again.  Revelation 12:4 has none of the other signs of the day of the Lord associated with it.  Revelation 6:13 has pretty much everything.  So I link it to Mathew 24.
     
  16. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that the sun being darkened (Revelation 6:12) is not compelling evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as in Matthew 24:29, for the sun is equally darkened in the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2). So the sun could be darkened twice during in the tribulation and then again after the tribulation.

    Note that the moon appearing blood red (Revelation 6:12) is not compelling evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as is Matthew 24:29, for after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all (Matthew 24:29). So the moon can appear blood red during the tribulation and then not give any light at all after the tribulation.

    Note that stars falling from heaven (Revelation 6:13) is not compelling evidence that the 6th seal is after the tribulation, as is Matthew 24:29, for we know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites, and there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So there can be three meteoritic events during the tribulation and then one after the tribulation.

    Yes, I think that Revelation 6:16-17 could be the terrified hyperbole of the unsaved, that they can't actually see the face of the Father sitting on his throne in heaven (Revelation 5:7), and that the 6th seal may not actually be God's wrath. Note that those in heaven don't say God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 16:1).

    I think John could be seeing a cataclysmic event that precedes the trumpets, which may be an historically unprecedented volcanic eruption which will trigger devastating earthquakes all around the world, and which will fill the atmosphere with ash, blocking the light from the sun and making the moon appear blood red. I think this could be accompanied (possibly triggered) by a storm of large meteorites, "falling stars," which will hit the ground, and atmospheric explosions of those which don't make it to the ground.

    When they see these horrors, the unsaved will no doubt believe they're all going to die, as "seeing the face of God" means death (Exodus 33:20), and that these events are God's wrath. But God's wrath may not be come in the 6th seal, nor in the 7th, nor in the 7 trumpets. God's wrath may not be come until the final stage of the great tribulation, the 7 vials (Revelation 16), which aren't directed at believers; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12).

    Note that just as Jesus "opening" the seals (Revelation 6:1) doesn't require that they be God's wrath, so the angels "sounding" the trumpets (Revelation 8:7) doesn't require that they be God's wrath.

    I believe there is a heavenly mount Sion and Jerusalem which we have already come to in a spiritual sense: "Ye are come (perfect tense in the Greek) unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" (Hebrews 12:22). Compare: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

    I believe Revelation 14 later shows the 144,000 "before the throne of God" in heaven (Revelation 14:1-5) while other of us Christians are still suffering and dying on the earth under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13).

    I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't the "great earthquake" and fearful signs in the sun, moon, and stars in the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) be included in the "great earthquakes" and "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (Luke 21:11) which will occur before the 42-month treading down of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2) during the 42-month reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5)? Note again that Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't mention the earthquake of the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12); it only refers to the powers of "the heavens" being shaken. Couldn't the earthquake of the 6th seal be included in the earthquakes of Matthew 24:7, and the war and famine of the 2nd and 3rd seals (Revelation 6:3-6) be included in the wars and famines of Matthew 24:6-7, all of which occur prior to the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15, just as all of the seals of Revelation 6 occur prior to the rule of the Antichrist of Revelation 13?

    I believe Isaiah 34:2-3 refers to the armies the Lord will slaughter at the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:19-21), so that Isaiah 34:4 would be a sign associated with Armageddon. Note that neither Isaiah 34:2-4 nor Matthew 24:29-31 refer to the great earthquake of Revelation 6:12.

    Does anything require that they occur before the trumpets?

    Note that Revelation 11:18 says "thy wrath is come," which is in the aorist tense, not the past tense, for I believe it means that after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15) will be the time when the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 16) is come.

    Then who's light is it?

    Then the 6th seal doesn't refer to the moon?
     
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