The Revlation of the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition
- Thread starter carlaimpinge
- Start date
- Status
Rize,
You showed up on the thread, then decided to "check" my attitude. You shouldn't have. I requested that you stay in the Bible. Your discussion then wanted to go to RAILING on the errors of the King James bible. There is no more discussion for us. You have no Book from which to base your beliefs and believe every bible is error filled. I don't and it's that simple. You think you're smart enough to correct it, and I don't.
Yes, you should have remained focused on the subject of this topic. You started throwing out the little tidbits of sarcasm. I responded to them.
Yes, I am "in Christ", and I can put that before my name. You're judgment of "how you feel about my speech" is of no matter. The Corinthians didn't like Paul's either. (2 Cor.10) He was pretty tough.
I've got no problem personally with you. Your apology is accepted.
Good day.
In Christ Jesus,
Carl
You showed up on the thread, then decided to "check" my attitude. You shouldn't have. I requested that you stay in the Bible. Your discussion then wanted to go to RAILING on the errors of the King James bible. There is no more discussion for us. You have no Book from which to base your beliefs and believe every bible is error filled. I don't and it's that simple. You think you're smart enough to correct it, and I don't.
Yes, you should have remained focused on the subject of this topic. You started throwing out the little tidbits of sarcasm. I responded to them.
Yes, I am "in Christ", and I can put that before my name. You're judgment of "how you feel about my speech" is of no matter. The Corinthians didn't like Paul's either. (2 Cor.10) He was pretty tough.
I've got no problem personally with you. Your apology is accepted.
Good day.
In Christ Jesus,
Carl
Upvote
0
Rize
Well-Known Member
quote:
You couldn't tell my daughter how to pick her nose.
Good day.
In Christ Jesus,
Carl
So you think that this is ok?
I said I was sorry. I'm sorry I made assumptions based on unclear understandings of things. Will you forgive me?
And to clarify my position since you continue to distort it, I said nothing about the Holy Bible, only the quality of a certain translation. Which you still
haven't given any reasons for using above other translations. What gave you the idea that it is perfect?The KJV issue must be settled if we are going to debate about this, and that's off topic for this forum. Yet I know I won't change your mind on that issue, so it looks like our discussion here is over.
Where can we discuss the KJV thing BlackHawk?
Upvote
0
I am refreshingly posting on the main POINT of this discussion. If no one objects that is.
The revelation of the man of sin, the son of perdition.
2Thess 2:1-8
In order to even interpret these scriptures you have to consider its context. What is Paul referring to in this whole section. Verse 1 tells us.
...concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our gathering together to Him...
to separate that sentence into two separate events lacks understanding of it not to mention some pretty fancy non-mentioned additions. First, the gathering together is TO Him, which is referenced BY the coming. How can this refer to being gathered to something else that does not appear?
if english isnt enough to plainly state it, then lets see what the greek sais: gatherring=episunigoge means: a complete collection. That word comes from episunigo which means:to collect upon the same place.
Does that say a separte collection? or partial? or just COMPLETE, and UPON THE SAME PLACE.
the coming referred to was stated well:QUOTE]The parousia of a King did not merely refer to the day he arrived, but the presence of the King from the moment he arrived until he left. It literally means presence not coming. But since it is future tense, it probably should have been translated as "coming presence" in English rather than just coming or just presence, both of which are misleading. [/QUOTE] amen to that.
Alright then, it can ONLY mean what it sais, the coming(presence) and the gathering(complete collection upon the same place) is what the chapter refers to.
Paul then asks (entreats) them (in verse 2)not to be shaken or troubled as if the DAY,(coming and gathering) had already happened.
verse 3 then sais; Let no one deceive you by any means: for that Day(coming and gathering) will not come UNLESS...
Hmm, dont be troubled by the deception. What deception?
...the falling away comes FIRST, and the man of sin is reavealed, the son of perdition,(note a comma)4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, SHOWING himself that he is God.
the falling away(rebellion) by the ungodly, or even saints who ARE decieved, and follow this new Christ causes an APPEARANCE that indeed He is God himself, and none other than Christ returned, a deception.
What he just sais, is dont be fooled (by this rebellion and this false christ) into thinking Christ has already come. For it HAS to happen, it will happen FIRST, before Christs return.
Then he sais in verse 5: Do you not remember that when i was still with you i told you these things?
and verse 6: and now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. Revealed? The rebellion reveals? Yes, it reveals who is faithful to the true God and who is not. The Antichrist reveals his own nature, (and everyone elses) THROUGH his deception. He is REVEALED, his blasphemy SHOWS hisself.
then verse 7: For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He(captilized indicating the true God, not a man) who now restrains will do so until He(capitlized again) is taken out of the way.
How can God be taken out of the way? It just showed us. Antichrist sets himself up and exalts himself as God, and takes the real God out of the way.
And THEN the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with brightness of His coming.
During the falling away, which ultimately reveals who AntiChrist is, the lawless mystery will work full force. There is no need to go searching in any other books to understand what Paul is saying here.
He goes on to say that this lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with signs, wonders and all manner of deception among THOSE WHO PERISH, because they dont recieve the truth, and they will be condemned. But we are bound to give thanks for salvation, to God, for we are called to obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus. So stand fast, and hold fast to these teachings of the gospel and the Lord Himself will comfort and establish us.
Hey, thats the whole chapter.
EveOfGrace
The revelation of the man of sin, the son of perdition.
2Thess 2:1-8
In order to even interpret these scriptures you have to consider its context. What is Paul referring to in this whole section. Verse 1 tells us.
...concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our gathering together to Him...
to separate that sentence into two separate events lacks understanding of it not to mention some pretty fancy non-mentioned additions. First, the gathering together is TO Him, which is referenced BY the coming. How can this refer to being gathered to something else that does not appear?
if english isnt enough to plainly state it, then lets see what the greek sais: gatherring=episunigoge means: a complete collection. That word comes from episunigo which means:to collect upon the same place.
Does that say a separte collection? or partial? or just COMPLETE, and UPON THE SAME PLACE.
the coming referred to was stated well:QUOTE]The parousia of a King did not merely refer to the day he arrived, but the presence of the King from the moment he arrived until he left. It literally means presence not coming. But since it is future tense, it probably should have been translated as "coming presence" in English rather than just coming or just presence, both of which are misleading. [/QUOTE] amen to that.
Alright then, it can ONLY mean what it sais, the coming(presence) and the gathering(complete collection upon the same place) is what the chapter refers to.
Paul then asks (entreats) them (in verse 2)not to be shaken or troubled as if the DAY,(coming and gathering) had already happened.
verse 3 then sais; Let no one deceive you by any means: for that Day(coming and gathering) will not come UNLESS...
Hmm, dont be troubled by the deception. What deception?
...the falling away comes FIRST, and the man of sin is reavealed, the son of perdition,(note a comma)4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, SHOWING himself that he is God.
the falling away(rebellion) by the ungodly, or even saints who ARE decieved, and follow this new Christ causes an APPEARANCE that indeed He is God himself, and none other than Christ returned, a deception.
What he just sais, is dont be fooled (by this rebellion and this false christ) into thinking Christ has already come. For it HAS to happen, it will happen FIRST, before Christs return.
Then he sais in verse 5: Do you not remember that when i was still with you i told you these things?
and verse 6: and now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. Revealed? The rebellion reveals? Yes, it reveals who is faithful to the true God and who is not. The Antichrist reveals his own nature, (and everyone elses) THROUGH his deception. He is REVEALED, his blasphemy SHOWS hisself.
then verse 7: For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He(captilized indicating the true God, not a man) who now restrains will do so until He(capitlized again) is taken out of the way.
How can God be taken out of the way? It just showed us. Antichrist sets himself up and exalts himself as God, and takes the real God out of the way.
And THEN the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with brightness of His coming.
During the falling away, which ultimately reveals who AntiChrist is, the lawless mystery will work full force. There is no need to go searching in any other books to understand what Paul is saying here.
He goes on to say that this lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with signs, wonders and all manner of deception among THOSE WHO PERISH, because they dont recieve the truth, and they will be condemned. But we are bound to give thanks for salvation, to God, for we are called to obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus. So stand fast, and hold fast to these teachings of the gospel and the Lord Himself will comfort and establish us.
Hey, thats the whole chapter.
EveOfGrace
Upvote
0
Carl you referred to Isaiah 10 as showing the wrath of God being used against the righteous?
5Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hand in My indignation
uhhh, that sais Woe to the very one that He uses, so not only are those that recieve it ******, but Assyria himself.
6 I will send him against an UNGODLY nation, And against the people of my wrath
No mention of wrath on the righteous....maybe if i keep reading?
I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey, And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
the spoil and prey? still not the righteous
hm, the rest talks about how Assyria thinks he does it of it his own heart, he thinks he destroys as his OWN conquest. Then further God sais, "i will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria.
NO wonder God sais, WOE to Assyria. God gives it unto him to send wrath and anger against the ungodly, then the arrogant Assyria thinks it is HIMSELF who does the destruction and claims to own it all!!!!
EveOfGrace
5Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger
And the staff in whose hand in My indignation
uhhh, that sais Woe to the very one that He uses, so not only are those that recieve it ******, but Assyria himself.
6 I will send him against an UNGODLY nation, And against the people of my wrath
No mention of wrath on the righteous....maybe if i keep reading?
I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey, And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
the spoil and prey? still not the righteous
hm, the rest talks about how Assyria thinks he does it of it his own heart, he thinks he destroys as his OWN conquest. Then further God sais, "i will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria.
NO wonder God sais, WOE to Assyria. God gives it unto him to send wrath and anger against the ungodly, then the arrogant Assyria thinks it is HIMSELF who does the destruction and claims to own it all!!!!
EveOfGrace
Upvote
0
Rize
Well-Known Member
EveOfGrace, unfortunately, Carl will only follow his own interpretation of the 1611 KJV translation of the Bible (also known as the AV). Though I do agree with much of what you wrote.
In any case, I have to wonder.
Why are we spending so much time arguing over when the rapture will be? If it's before all of the bad stuff, we have nothing to worry about. So, it will not hurt to assume that this position is wrong and prepare for the worse.
In any case, I have to wonder.
Why are we spending so much time arguing over when the rapture will be? If it's before all of the bad stuff, we have nothing to worry about. So, it will not hurt to assume that this position is wrong and prepare for the worse.
Upvote
0
I think the rapture may not be at the 6th seal, but will be "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 trumpets and 7 vials are finished. My concern is that if some mistakenly believe that Jesus promised to rapture us right after the cataclysm of the 6th seal, and then he doesn't, and then month after month continues to pass by without any rapture, some may begin to think that something has gone wrong, that maybe Satan has somehow thwarted the rapture. But if we go into the tribulation believing that we must wait 1,335 days after the abomination of desolation for Jesus to rapture us (Daniel 12:11-12), then we'll be prepared to endure to the very end without our faith being shaken.
I believe it's possible that those of us Christians who are not one of the 144,000 could suffer under the locusts of the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:4), just as we will suffer in many other ways during the tribulation, none of which ways will be the wrath of God, as I believe only the 144,000 will receive the particular seal referred to in Revelation 7: "I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel" (Revelation 7:4). I believe there will be more than 144,000 of us Christians on the earth at that time. Note that later when the 144,000 are already before the throne in heaven (Revelation 14:1-3), there are other of us Christians still suffering and dying on the earth under the Antichrist (Revelation 14:12-13).
Does Revelation say the trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? Could God's judgment not be come until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), none of which are directed at us Christians?
Upvote
0
Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)? Don't we Christians have to go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13)?
I believe the gathering is at the destruction of the son of perdition because he is destroyed by Jesus' coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8), and we are gathered at Jesus' coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:29-31), and there's no 3rd coming.
Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), and we must be his bride (Ephesians 5:30-32), and we must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).
Upvote
0
I am surprised the light bulb has not clicked on over your head yet posttrib.
I think it would be a good idea for you to take the time to study Carl's website.
In Christ,
Mr. John
PS Rize, if you want to prepare for the worst then ignore this thread.
I think it would be a good idea for you to take the time to study Carl's website.
In Christ,
Mr. John
PS Rize, if you want to prepare for the worst then ignore this thread.
Upvote
0
JesusServant
do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER
We know God's children by their fruit Carl. Could you please refrain from being condescending and calling people names? It would make for more people giving your views and posts a chance I assure you.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Just a brief question for the original poster - carlaimpinge (and any others, if they so desire)...
Do you believe that the man of sin is a single man? Just curious partly because you said that you were taught that the first reading of scripture usually is the right one. But I'm also curious because most people seem to believe that it is a single man (like the AntiChrist...).
Do you believe that the man of sin is a single man? Just curious partly because you said that you were taught that the first reading of scripture usually is the right one. But I'm also curious because most people seem to believe that it is a single man (like the AntiChrist...).
Upvote
0
Rize
Well-Known Member
I think the key is in Revelation 6:15-17.
The day of God's wrath has come. And after the sealing of the Jew and the rapture of the church in chapter 7 (which would probably be pretty much instantaneous) the seventh seal is opened in chapter 8. That pretty much tells me that the trumpets begin the "great day of God's wrath".
Upvote
0
Rize
Well-Known Member
You should read Revelation 7:14 again. The great multitude are those who have come out of the great tribulation!
The Anti-Christ isn't destroyed at the moment of Jesus' coming. He's destroyed by "the splendor" of his coming (parousia which means presence). The destruction of the Anti-Christ does not happen the moment Jesus comes, even in post-trib theology. First there is the Battle of Armageddon, then he's dropped into the lake of fire after that.
If we aren't raptured out of the tribulation and sores start breaking out on everyone who has the mark, then I'll know you're right and go with the flow.
Until that happens though, I don't agree with you there.
Upvote
0
Rize
Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Mr. John
I am surprised the light bulb has not clicked on over your head yet posttrib.
I think it would be a good idea for you to take the time to study Carl's website.
In Christ,
Mr. John
PS Rize, if you want to prepare for the worst then ignore this thread.
Carl's website is based on a faulty translation though.
Upvote
0
Rize
Well-Known Member
I would say it's definitely a single person. There is a spirit of anti-christ mentioned in John's epistles, but there are numerous references to a single individual which we call the Anti-Christ. I don't think he's ever actually referred to as the Anti-Christ in the Bible though. He has names like the beast, son of perdition, man of lawlessness, little horn etc. etc.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Upvote
0
Rize
Well-Known Member
Since this argument starts out with a poor understanding of a poorly translated verse, the entire argument needs to be rethought.
Yet, all Christians know that God's laws change at various times in the Bible depending on people. Even so, I think that people overstate dispensationalism and use it incorrectly.
Whatever the case is, it doesn't matter much since we're all in the same dispensation now.
"dispensation is the word that God chose"
ugh Dispensation is the word that the KJV translators chose, and as far as I can tell, they botched that whole verse (or else the writer botched the interpretation of the KJV verse).
*sigh*
The thing goes on to talk about progressive revelation whereby new info is added. But this isn't true even in their example. The laws go back and forth. God simply gave different people different commandments depending on His ultimate purpose. This is not progressive. It is based on circumstance.
So the author follows this up by trying to make part of the NT not applicable to us today. Just because this guy hasn't realized that people are still filled with the Spirit, still lay hands, still heal etc. doesn't mean it's not true. So he uses the dispensation teaching to throw it out because he hasn't come to terms with the truth.
We only need to recognize what teachings have been given in general to all Christians. If you want to call this a dispensation, go right ahead. That doesn't mean I have to agree with this guy's "dispensation" or yours.
Yet, all Christians know that God's laws change at various times in the Bible depending on people. Even so, I think that people overstate dispensationalism and use it incorrectly.
Whatever the case is, it doesn't matter much since we're all in the same dispensation now.
"dispensation is the word that God chose"
ugh
Dispensation is the word that the KJV translators chose, and as far as I can tell, they botched that whole verse (or else the writer botched the interpretation of the KJV verse).*sigh*
The thing goes on to talk about progressive revelation whereby new info is added. But this isn't true even in their example. The laws go back and forth. God simply gave different people different commandments depending on His ultimate purpose. This is not progressive. It is based on circumstance.
So the author follows this up by trying to make part of the NT not applicable to us today. Just because this guy hasn't realized that people are still filled with the Spirit, still lay hands, still heal etc. doesn't mean it's not true. So he uses the dispensation teaching to throw it out because he hasn't come to terms with the truth.
We only need to recognize what teachings have been given in general to all Christians. If you want to call this a dispensation, go right ahead. That doesn't mean I have to agree with this guy's "dispensation" or yours.
Upvote
0
Rize
Well-Known Member
This guy makes me mad.
I can't believe he quoted Mathew 19:16-17 in support of point 16. If he would have included verse 18 and 19 as well, it would be clear that Jesus also said that the man must sell all of his possesions and "follow me (Jesus)."
Then point 17
Paul was talking about a false gospel (kinda like this one 
) not "another" gospel, as if there is more than one correct gospel. Observe Galations 1:6-7.
(righteous indignation).
THIS VERY VERSE CONDEMNS THOSE WHO TURN TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL WHICH IS "NO GOSPEL AT ALL".
I don't use caps often people.
This very scripture which is misquoted from Galations, when read in its entirety, falsifies this person's teaching.
I don't want to read the rest of this junk
"How is it that Christ had sent the apostles out to preach when they obviously did not understand the cross? It must be that they were not preaching the cross. The gospel preached by the twelve apostles was something other than the death, burial, and resurrection."
Yeah it was something different! It was preaching salvation in the name of Jesus. Whether he had died yet or not, Jesus was sufficient to save a person (observe the thief on the cross in Luke). Thus Abraham's faith saved him as well (as I explained in detail in the posts above), also through Jesus.
There is only one Gospel folks. Reread Galations 1:6-10). There is only one gospel, any other gospel is really no gospel at all.
Mr. John, please become like the Bereans! (Acts 17:10-15). Always search the scriptures to see if a teaching is true. Especially if it is a rogue teaching that most don't agree with.
This guy makes me mad.
I can't believe he quoted Mathew 19:16-17 in support of point 16. If he would have included verse 18 and 19 as well, it would be clear that Jesus also said that the man must sell all of his possesions and "follow me (Jesus)."
Then point 17
Paul was talking about a false gospel (kinda like this one
) not "another" gospel, as if there is more than one correct gospel. Observe Galations 1:6-7. (righteous indignation). THIS VERY VERSE CONDEMNS THOSE WHO TURN TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL WHICH IS "NO GOSPEL AT ALL".
I don't use caps often people.
This very scripture which is misquoted from Galations, when read in its entirety, falsifies this person's teaching.
I don't want to read the rest of this junk
"How is it that Christ had sent the apostles out to preach when they obviously did not understand the cross? It must be that they were not preaching the cross. The gospel preached by the twelve apostles was something other than the death, burial, and resurrection."
Yeah it was something different! It was preaching salvation in the name of Jesus. Whether he had died yet or not, Jesus was sufficient to save a person (observe the thief on the cross in Luke). Thus Abraham's faith saved him as well (as I explained in detail in the posts above), also through Jesus.
There is only one Gospel folks. Reread Galations 1:6-10). There is only one gospel, any other gospel is really no gospel at all.
Mr. John, please become like the Bereans! (Acts 17:10-15). Always search the scriptures to see if a teaching is true. Especially if it is a rogue teaching that most don't agree with.
Upvote
0
I personally don't believe that the church is raptured in chapter 7, but that the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, persecution, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Rize
Well-Known Member
Too much circumstantial evidence.
In the 5th seal, they are awaiting God's wrath upon the earth. Then they are out from under the throne (implying that the number of martyrs is complete), and this is right after the sign in the sun moon and stars. The number of martyrs being complete implies that the great tribulation has been ended (by the rapture) and that God's wrath has begun.
The great multitude may not include the raptured saitns who didn't die, but it implies that the rapture has already occured at this point.
In the 5th seal, they are awaiting God's wrath upon the earth. Then they are out from under the throne (implying that the number of martyrs is complete), and this is right after the sign in the sun moon and stars. The number of martyrs being complete implies that the great tribulation has been ended (by the rapture) and that God's wrath has begun.
The great multitude may not include the raptured saitns who didn't die, but it implies that the rapture has already occured at this point.
Upvote
0
- Status
