Most Israelis - fake Jews?

I don't know, myself, but I believe Koestler made a compelling case for it.

It seems that the earthly promise of Israel, to be numbered as the grains of sand and through whom all the earth would be blessed (from an earthly perspective) and that Israel was to lose its identity (not Judah, but most of the rest of God's people on earth) points to many others who aren't reckoned as Jews still being Israelites. There are such all over the world.

But he who is a Jew outwardly isn't necessarily one inwardly, so racial stock does lose significance in the light of Christ. Those who believe a renewed temple sacrifice in Jerusalem somewhere is a good thing are no closer to God than such a sacrifice can provide. Whether Khazars or not.

A good essay touching on this subject can be found here...

http://associate.com/ministry_files/The_Reading_Room/Doctrines_n_Theology_2/The_future_Of_Israel_Reexamined.shtml From the essay.....What this means is that very few Jews at the time of Christ had any of Abraham's blood in them. They were a nation formed by covenant, not a race formed by blood. To be sure, Jesus Himself was a true blood descendant of Abraham, and His genealogy is important for theological reasons, but few other Jews could trace their genealogy to Abraham. What I seek to establish by this survey is this: With the passing away of the Old Covenant, there is no longer any such thing as a Jew in the Biblical sense, unless by "True Jews" we mean Christians. There is no covenant, and therefore there is no nation, no "race."

The literal Nation of Israel was destroyed by God at the hand of the Roman armies under General Titus in 70 C.E. Their geneological records were also destroyed.  As mentioned by undead, those in the middle east are not the Israel of God, that priviledge now belongs to the Christian Congregation "The Israel of God" (Gal 6:16.)

Romans 2:28-29
"For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God".

Galatians 3:26-29
"YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise.


Gal. 6:15, 16.
"Neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is something. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God."

So "the Israel of God" is no longer determined on the basis of conforming to the requirement laid upon Abraham for all the males of his household to be circumcised. Rather, as stated at Galatians 3:26-29, those who belong to Christ and who are spirit-begotten sons of God "are really Abraham's seed".

Let me ask: Does this matter one bit?

<>< said

Are Israelis that are not "blood Jews" (descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) really Jews? Are they really Israel


Eph writes...

Well first mistake is calling all Israelis.." Jews "...and for using Abraham..Isaac..and Jacob as examples OF Jews...!

JUDAH is the "forefather" of the Jews..but was never called one himself..!

The descendants of Abe and Isaac can rightly be called Hebrews...Only the descendants of Jacob..can be called "Israelites"...Jacob's name having been changed in the night he wrestled with God...!

Jacob had a son he named Judah...and about 1000 yrs later they became known as Jews..! It never ceases to amaze me how many people don't actually READ the info from God's word on all this...and still to this day confuse the names...!

Repeat after me....

""ALL JEWS are Hebrews...but not all Hebrews are Jews...All Jews are Israelites...but not all Israelites are Jews""..!

Therefore Jews make up only 1/12th of who Israel is..!

... Joseph for example never had "Judah's" blood in his veins....Joseph and Judah had te same father..Jacob..but had different moms...Judah's mom was Leah..Joseph's mom was Rachel..!

They were HALF brothers to each other.. Joseph went on to marry an EGYPTIAN woman and have children with her...So EPH was only half Hebrew..and Half Egyptian..but NONE of Judah's blood was in him..! Judah had TWINS with Tamar who was a Canaanite..so Jews are half Canaanite..half Hebrew..but again..THAT doesn't mean ALL Hebrews are part Canaanite either..!

Whew..!

There ....NOW ya got at least THAT much straightened out..!

undead writes...

The only true Israel is the son of the promise, the nation of the faithful, of which all true believers are members.


(Just my thoughts on the matter.) [/B]



Eph writes..

God is not finished with ISRAEL..and God is not finished with the Jews...

He will deal with BOTH in the Great Tribulation...! So I'd have to disagree here with you..The sons of promise ARE true Israel in the "spiritual sence"...But not in the literal..!

Remember many who are of Israel..and of the Jews...will become "believers" during the Great Trib.

So to say "only true Israel" is incomplete in your thoughts above.....!

Eph,

Actually, your math might be a bit off. Weren't the tribes of Benjamin and some of Levi also considered Jews?

nikolai_42 said

Eph,

Actually, your math might be a bit off. Weren't the tribes of Benjamin and some of Levi also considered Jews?

Eph says...

Nik..?? Were they considered part of the House of Judah..or were they considered Jews...?

Answer : Benjamin was considered H O J...but Jewish by "religion" not by Tribe...!

Paul brings all this to light in ACTS 22:3..22:25...ROM 11:1..PHIL 3:5....He's an Israelite..of Benjamin..a Hebrew..a Pharisee..A Jew..a Roman..!

He was a Jew by religion..but not of the tribe of Judah...!

The Levites were Priestly in nature and had no certain "House"....they were located in both groups..Judah and Israel...( till all the split ups of course )...!

undead said
As an amillenialist, believing that the events of Revelation have been going on since the resurrection, I would agree that many Jews (i.e. descendants of ancient inhabitants of Israel) will, and are, being brought to the faith.

Eph writes...

Well I like animals too Undead...but thats not the subject here..!

( just kiddin )

The Jews only make up a small portion of the ENTIRE group..!

The Bible says that the 10 Northern Tribes known as House of Israel...never returned to that area of the world...I believe history shows they spread into W. Europe...So the descendents of "ancient Israel"...aren't made up of Jews only..There are many other Hebrews who aren't Jews..!

The Bible says the House of Judah returned to that area of the world..but doesn't say the House of Israel returned...!

Undead writes..
But those descendants of the ancient Israelites who are not Christians are not any different before God from the rest of the pagan nations. They who are "of Israel" have no continuing right to refer to themselves as "Israel", because they are not "Israel". There is only one Israel, not two, as Paul says

Eph writes...

Well GOD didn't forget about em..so in that way they are a bit special..just like the Jews..God won't forget them either...REV 7 shows that God will deal with BOTH during the Great Trib.. ( all the Tribes are represented not just Jews )......The sad part is because they reject him now..they get to go thru the "Thunder Dome" type conditions of the Great Tribulation...!

Those that jump onboard NOW with Jesus..before all that happens..not only are lucky ( blessed really )...but are like lil "jems" that shine forth God's mercy..in the Church today..!

When I see a Jew who comes to Christ in church...I kinda smile inside..because I can gather strength from that witness of God's mercy to that individual..and possibly his or her family..!...(( As long as they don't bring an attitude of "I'm better than you"..or "I'm special" ))..THEN they really are "special" but only in a spiritual way...!

PS...
..God forbid if their "messianic judiaisers"... in nature.....then they become a thorn in the BODY of Christ...that needs quick removal and pruning...!

undead said

Animals?

Eph writes...

It was a joke..a play on words.."amillenialist"...is what you wrote..I tried a lil joke a lil kiddin around get it..?? .....ahh never mind ok..forget it...!


Undead writes...
In the same vein, "THE great tribulation" is not the subject and neither is it found in the bible (KJV). The words are "great tribulation", of which their have been many for believers since Christ, the first one being at the destruction of Jerusalem. [/B]


Eph writes...

This being another thread...I'll just quickly say Great Tribulation....is different than regular ol "tribulation"..that Jesus said we WILL have...!

Those 2 ( Jews and Israel )..show up in the Great Tribulation..because of their NON Faith in Jesus Christ now..!


we ( those of HIS church ie.."christians" )..
don't go thru the " G T "...because Jesus said we don't...!

Indeed it does. Because when you see the huge infatuation with "Israel" by the USA, and especially churchmen in the USA, you have to ask yourself, is this biblical or are these guys just cranks.

My opinion is the latter. All this Israel infatuation is just absurd.

undead said

I cannot agree. First, there is only one Israel, the child of the promise. No biblical prophecy about Israel, as fulfilled in the NT, can by definition refer to any other Israel than the one true Israel.

Eph writes...

....and THIS shows ya don't know yer Bible...!