To Rapture Believers: 1 Thess. 4:16 vs John 6:39-40,44,54

Bible2 said:

The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

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Im still learning and had to research, but is it not the other way around?
"• Airo means 'to take away, put away, loose, and remove.' [Strong's G142]
• Paralambano means "to receive near, i.e., associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); receive, take unto, take with." [Strong's G3880]

The taken as used in those verses indicates accepted by Jesus, the ones left rejected. So those taken are his bridegrooms, are they not?

When noting the meaning of "one will be left"
G863 From G575 and hiemi (to send; an intensive form of eimi (to go)); to send forth, in various applications: - cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

And if I have it mixed forgive me.


I agree with the obvious one goes with The Lord, the other remains until either killed or repents if still possible for them.

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

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I have issues with this. Maybe you miss worded your intent? Why would Jesus force an unsaved person (I know the premise that those born under Jesus' reign would not "need" a reason to get saved) to worship/praise him/God? Are we not given a choice, did Lucifer not still have a choice? I understand the iron rod as in no uprising, no disobedience without punishment, but for everyone not just the new "offspring". I don't grasp the notion of Jesus making us go against our will, we love him freely or won't G part of it. As well as those who are in that reign are his children/believers. Evil has been bound, defeated once. Those who are a part of the reign are his elect, their are no unsaved, we've all been married.

I do agree those deceived will G the offspring who never experienced "sin".
And agree with the marriage. Even agree with how the antichrist will obtain current unbelievers "faith" even though he technically has it already.

Personal opinion, I don't think it's so much the world won't lose confidence in the antichrist "winning", as much as I feel they chose an allegiance and are bound by it. Great civil war reference, I've always imagined some on lucifers side just sitting down knowing they chose wrong.


And thanks for the reply.

Krazed


Your millennium age idea is Plausible, but if your statement is correct it creates one heck of an issue. So the spirits of those who are given righteous robes and reign with Christ who've overcome evil and the world once already will succumb to evil again? Sounds like the fall of lucifer again, except it's "man" again( being with God/Jesus and knowing him and rejecting him after being in his presence). I think not.

It's more plausible and likely, some will have "flesh" bodies(some if not all) and reproduce as the numbers of sand of the sea. And the ones capable of getting deceived are those who've never experienced sin/evil first hand



Is their mortal flesh with souls or not during the millennial reign, seems your contradicting yourself here.

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At the 7th trump all are changed,Christ comes here...There will be no flesh in the milennium.....

The difference is those who overcame will have no worries about the 2nd death,those who did not overcome,their souls will be mortal,meaning they stand the chance of dying the 2nd death....

In other words you will have a mortal or an immortal soul....

Bible2 said:

Whereas there is the figurative resurrection of initial salvation (e.g. Ephesians 2:5-6), the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal in the sense of bodily (cf. Romans 8:23). For Revelation 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished", meaning that the 1st resurrection will be the same, bodily type of resurrection as will occur sometime after the 1,000 years (Revelation 20:7-15). For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15), and Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Also, the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 will be literal/bodily because it won't occur until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), and the resurrection of the church that will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming will be a literal/bodily resurrection, just like Jesus' literal/bodily resurrection at his 1st coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39).

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You're certainly free to believe that but that's not how our Lord put it. You come to Jesus to have LIFE first...that's the first resurrection. If you die before the Lord returns, upon his return you will have a second resurrection which is the bodily resurrection.

Also, NO 1000 year reign Bible2! Jesus is reigning now! Please spare me your "defacto reign" response.

Bible2 said:

But in John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Also, the "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' 1st coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' 1st coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

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All you have to do is read it in context Bible2...the "last day" is a time and an event.

It's the "last day" because no one else can be saved, and it's an event because judgment starts on the last day. Jesus said it four time in John 6...so believe him.

ebedmelech said in post 43:

Also, NO 1000 year reign Bible2!

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Note that there is a 1,000-year reign in Revelation 20:4-6. Also, there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21.

First, this is in accord with how the rest of Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are in chronological order, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

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Second, the 1,000 years in Revelation 20:2-6 is when Satan will be literally bound with a chain, and cast into and locked within the literal bottomless pit, whereas currently he's walking about freely on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet. But their beginning after Jesus' 2nd coming makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Third, during the 1,000 years, Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Revelation 20:3), whereas currently he is able to deceive the world (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Corinthians 11:3,14,15; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:14, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 20:10). So the 1,000 years can't have started yet.

Fourth, the defeat of Satan in Revelation 20:1-3 is in chronological accord with the immediately preceding defeat of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet, and the world's armies, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21). Indeed, there's no chapter break between Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 in the original Greek manuscripts, so that Revelation 19:19 to 20:3 can be taken together as a unit, showing how every power of evil will be defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming.

Fifth, reading Revelation 20:4-6 as Jesus and the bodily resurrected church reigning 1st on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches Jesus reigning 1st on the present (not the new) earth after his 2nd coming in Zechariah 14:3-21. For Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth, because it refers to a temple building in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:20-21), whereas there will be no temple building in New Jerusalem on the new earth (Revelation 21:22). Also, Zechariah 14:8-21 can't be referring to the new earth because it refers to surviving unsaved people from the present earth being forced to come up to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19), whereas by the time of the new earth, all the unsaved people from the present earth will have already been cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15 to 21:8).

Sixth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) matches other verses which show that the bodily resurrection of the church will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Seventh, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:5, which must refer in its entirety to only bodily resurrection. For not every dead person is going to be figuratively resurrected in the sense of becoming saved (Revelation 20:15). And Revelation 20:5 means that the rest of the dead (i.e. all the non-church dead of all times) will be resurrected in the same manner that the church will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6, but the rest of the dead won't be resurrected until sometime after the 1,000 years.

Eighth, reading the 1st resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6 as the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming is in line with Revelation 20:4, which shows that the people in the 1st resurrection will include those in the church who will have been beheaded by the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) for not worshipping him or his image, or receiving his mark on their hand or forehead. This refers back to the details of Revelation 13:4-18, which have never been fulfilled. So the 1st resurrection can't have happened yet. But its occurring at Jesus' 2nd coming, when he will defeat the Antichrist, makes perfect sense (Revelation 19:20 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9).

ebedmelech said in post 43:

Jesus is reigning now!

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Amen, but he isn't yet exercising his power to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

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As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the 1st century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7) so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now there ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he's Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

To random person :

The last day is a general term used to indicate the end of something . I actually believe it to be the end of the church age on earth. However, God does not remain ' in time ' like we do. I believe that the term' the last day' used in this passage of John proves to us that there will be a resurrection . I do not think that it was Jesus 's point to mention a rapture in these passages.

In the book of 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, the rapture is called a mystery by Paul . ( something newly revealed). I believe that Jesus alluded to the rapture in some of His parables and also in John 14 1-3, but it was still a mystery to the disciples . However, they understood what the resurrection was and that was not a mystery to them like the rapture mentioned by Paul .

The First Resurrection doesn't happen all at once, it began with Jesus and many other OT Saints in 30 A.D.

Bible2 said:

Note that there is a 1,000-year reign in Revelation 20:4-6. Also, there are at least 8 scriptural reasons to read the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:2-6 as not beginning until after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7-21...

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We've heard you "eight scriptural reasons" which are not scriptural...many times Bible2.

You keep ignoring how God uses perfect thousands to represent long periods of time or eternity...passages like.

*God keeps his promises to the "thousandth generaltion".

*God owns the cattle on a "thousand hills".

*A day in God's courts are better than a "thousand".

*A day is like a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years like a day.

These are ways God uses a thousand...and when he mentions a thousand year reign in Revelation 20...John supposes you understand that...obviously you don't.

Bible2 said:

Amen, but he isn't yet exercising his power to the extent of physically subjugating the kings of the earth, like he will do during the millennium (Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Micah 4:1-4, Zechariah 14:9-21).

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As God the Word, Jesus was the Creator of everything in heaven and earth (Colossians 1:16-18, John 1:1,3). And in the 1st century AD, he became a flesh and bones human being (John 1:14; 2 John 1:7) so that he could die on the Cross for our sins and rise from the dead on the 3rd day (Hebrews 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and become our eternally-human high priest/mediator (Hebrews 7:24-26; 1 Timothy 2:5).

After his resurrection into immortality in his fully-human flesh and bones body (Luke 24:39), Jesus the man was given ultimate spiritual authority over heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18). He ascended bodily into heaven (Acts 1:9-10), and is now there ruling spiritually over everything (1 Peter 3:22, Ephesians 1:20-23, Colossians 2:10,15, Philippians 2:9).

But he won't take ultimate, de facto, physical authority over the earth until his 2nd coming, when, still as a flesh and bones human being (Zechariah 13:6, Zechariah 12:10-14), he will descend bodily from heaven (Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) to physically reign on the earth (Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:9-21) with a rod of iron with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4, Micah 4:1-4, Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:6-7).

After his 1,000-year reign and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Jesus will resurrect and judge everyone who wasn't resurrected at his 2nd coming (Revelation 20:11-15). Everyone who has ever lived will have to bow down before him and admit that he's Lord of everything (Philippians 2:10-11, Acts 10:36).

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This is pure error Bible2! It is Jesus that said in Matthew 28:18-20...let's look at each verse:

18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Jesus announces to the apostles He has received the reign...ALL means ALL!

On the basis of hvaing all authority, He send the apostles out to preach to ALL NATIONS!!! Jesus also tells them He is with them to the END of the age. Matthew 28:19, 20:
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Jesus reigns Bible2...UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE!!! Now you can try to say "not yet" but there are too many examples of Jesus exercising His authority on earth.

Do I need to provide you with them?

The Thousand years can't begin until Jesus is reigning on Earth with the Resurrected Saints. Amilenialims requires allegorizeing the Resurrection.

random person said:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 can be cross-referenced with 1 Thessalonians 4:17! Not all of mankind will be dead at Christ's appearing, however the dead will precede the living (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Christ will gather His dead and living.

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This is true. The above are both rapture passages. Only believers in Christ will be resurrected. Yes, the dead will be raised before the living, just like the scripture says. There will be a rapture.

MithrandirOlorin888 said:

The Thousand years can't begin until Jesus is reigning on Earth with the Resurrected Saints. Amilenialims requires allegorizeing the Resurrection.

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No it doesn't...once again Matthew 28:18:
18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Amils simply beieve what Jesus said..."in heaven and ON EARTH".

Nothing to allegorize...it's right there!

So perhaps now, you can explain how one can have "all authority" and not be reigning...

bibletruth469 said in post 51:

There will be a rapture.

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Amen.

For the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

random person said:

Does the bodily resurrection occur 1,003.5 or 1,007 & 1,000 years before the LAST DAY? (That is two resurrections before the last day!)

Or does it occur on the LAST DAY?

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Judgement Day.
We cannot split the climactic, inescapable, and final events of 'Judgement Day' into separate events like premil, pre-trib, or however else you want to classify it. It's all the one great and terrible day of the Lord and it all happens together. The 'Day of the Lord' raises all the dead, judges the living and the dead, separates every saint from every sinner that has ever lived, judges Satan and his minions, and ends sin, sickness and death and this entire Universe and results in a New Heavens and New Earth, an eternal home for God's Kingdom. The 'rapture' and 'last day' and 'age to come' are all wrapped up in this one climactic, final event.

First, let me explain one presupposition I have. I believe in doing something radical, and that is using the *clear* statements of scripture to interpret the less clear. Reading John's own gospel is a clearer interpretative grid to try and understand Revelation than the other way around! John's gospel is the lens through which we interpret his less clear symbolism in Revelation. Many would rather allegorise and tone down the *clear* teaching of scripture to squish the clear stuff into their bizarre end times tables, but it just doesn't fit.

1: BOTH BELIEVERS AND UNBELIEVERS ARE RAISED TOGETHER ON THE LAST DAY!
(not 1000 years apart)

John explains that the LAST DAY is when us Christians are raised to eternal life.

John 6:39
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the LAST DAY. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 11:24
24 Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY.”

2: WE ARE SAVED OR JUDGED on the LAST DAY
John 12:48
48 There is a JUDGE for those who reject me and do not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the LAST DAY.

John 5
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Where's the 1000 years above? Nope, none. We are raised on the LAST DAY and judged on the LAST DAY.

Luke 17
"24 For the Son of Man in HIS DAY will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. THEN the flood came and DESTROYED THEM ALL.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all."

Believers are rescued, unbelievers judged. Noah didn't enter the ark and wait 1000 years for the flood! Lot didn't leave Sodom and wait 1000 years for the fire!

Does Matthew 25:31-46 (the sorting of the sheep and the goats) mention 1000 years between the sheep being raised and the goats?

What about Matthew 13:24-29 and the Parable of the Sower? "First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."
Are you really arguing that there is 1000 years in the word 'then'? Who's really reading the bible literally here?

Likewise in 1 Thess 4 Christians are raised and gathered together with the living, and in 1 Thess 5 the ungodly are immediately judged!

4. SIN, SATAN, AND DEATH ARE DEFEATED AND BANISHED FOREVER, AS IS MORTAL FLESH AND MORTAL PROCESS LIKE HAVING BABIES.

(Right now I don't have time to look up verses for Sin and Satan banished and judged, so let's continue...)

The Age to Come banishes death.
Mark 10:30 "...will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life."

Or 1 Cor 15: "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death"

There's no mortals in the age to come. Getting there depends on resurrection!
Luke 20:35: "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come AND IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"

The Millennium cannot have both immortal resurrected Christians and mortal sinners living along side each other, because after 70 years there would be no more sinners. They can't have babies! Resurrection = age to come = no babies.

1 Corinthians 15
"50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Therefore the so called Millennium cannot have mortals and immortals living together AFTER the resurrection because the resurrection is Judgement Day, the final separation of sheep and goats (above), the ushering in of God's New Kingdom when Death itself is destroyed. How Dispy's assert mortals live alongside immortals in the Millennium blows my mind in the light of these clear verses!


4. FINALLY THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS UPGRADED AS CHRISTIANS GO TO OUR PERMANENT HOME

But there is one more BIG THING that still happens. What is it? It happens on the Day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:3-10
"3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly....
....10 But the DAY OF THE LORD will come LIKE A THIEF. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare....
...13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

Last Day = Last Trumpet = Resurrection = Age to Come = No marriage & no babies = No Mortals = Judgement Day! = 'in His Day' = Day of Lord = New Heavens and New Earth = SECRET!

Can it be any clearer? It all happens at once, suddenly, when life is going along more or less 'normally'. There is no warning. And it is instantaneous!

So what do we make of the Millennium in Rev 20? Indeed, what do we do with the entire book of Revelation?

Well, I'd recommend '666 and all that' by Dr Greg Clarke and Dr John Dickson.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/666-All-Tha...7800/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1293364899&sr=1-1

http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/life/resources/666_and_all_that/

I would also recommend 'Apocalypse Now and then' by Dr Paul Barnett, which is a bit partial preterist and a bit Symbolist.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421

Or if you don't have the time buy and read these books, try the free audio at Sydney Anglicans. The following link has sermons listed by book of the bible. Scan down to the end and download the sermons. You'll be amazed at the consistency of reading Revelation with the REST of the New Testament!
Synod 2013 Bible study 3 | Audio

Or if you REALLY want to go deep, check out the free audio lectures by Dr Kim Riddlebarger. There's probably about 30 hours of material entitled "Amillennialism 101" on the down the right hand column here.
Riddleblog - The Latest Post

eclipsenow said in post 55:

Luke 17
"24 For the Son of Man in HIS DAY will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. THEN the flood came and DESTROYED THEM ALL.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all."

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Note that Luke 17:27,29, like Matthew 24:39, doesn't mean that all unsaved people will be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming. For Luke 17:34-36 and Matthew 24:40-41 go on to show that some unsaved people will be left alive at that time (Zechariah 14:16-19). So in Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-39, the point of the comparison isn't that all unsaved people will be killed at the 2nd coming, but that none of them will be expecting to be killed, but will be eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the 2nd coming.

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

The 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the temporal (i.e. not the eternal) judgment of the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before its temporal (not its eternal) judgment (cf. Ezekiel 16:53-56), so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming, temporal (not the eternal) judgment of the unsaved world alive at that time (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

eclipsenow said in post 55:

Does Matthew 25:31-46 (the sorting of the sheep and the goats) mention 1000 years between the sheep being raised and the goats?

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Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to when the "nations" will be finally-judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will finally-judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to when the unsaved of all times, whether Jews or Gentiles, will be sent into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment will include those, whether Jews or Gentiles, who will become believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

eclipsenow said in post 55:

What about Matthew 13:24-29 and the Parable of the Sower?

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Regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) will be created, and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

eclipsenow said in post 55:

What about Matthew 13:24-29 and the Parable of the Sower?

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Regarding the parable of the sower (Luke 8:4-15), the last 3 types of people all received God's Word and came into faith. The one who came into faith on stony ground believed for awhile, but then subsequently committed apostasy (Luke 8:13; cf. 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), which ultimately results in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b). The one who came into faith on weed-choked ground subsequently neglected to patiently continue in good works, neglected to bear fruit to perfection (Luke 8:14, Colossians 1:10, Revelation 3:1b-2). And the one who came into faith on good ground subsequently brought forth fruit with patience (Luke 8:15), which is required in order for believers to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21, James 2:24), and not to ultimately lose their salvation (John 15:2a,6, Matthew 25:26,30).

eclipsenow said in post 55:

Likewise in 1 Thess 4 Christians are raised and gathered together with the living, and in 1 Thess 5 the ungodly are immediately judged!

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Note that 1 Thessalonians 5:3 doesn't require that the eternal judgment of the unsaved (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's (temporal) judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming (yet still temporal) judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

Between the temporal, 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of Revelation 19:11 to 20:3, and the eternal judgment and wrath of Revelation 20:11-15, will occur the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:4-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

eclipsenow said in post 55:

Mark 10:30 "...will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life."

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Mark 10:30 isn't contradicting that obedient believers will be in immortal bodies during the current age's final stage, i.e. the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), just as Mark 10:30 isn't contradicting that believers have eternal life in a spiritual sense currently (1 John 5:13).

eclipsenow said in post 55:

Or 1 Cor 15: "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death"

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1 Corinthians 15:26 refers to when the 1st death will be cast into the 2nd death, the lake of fire, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). The resurrection at the great white throne judgment is the resurrection at "the end" (1 Corinthians 15:24), and it will include everyone who won't be part of the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:5), the bodily resurrection of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

eclipsenow said in post 55:

Luke 20:35: "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come AND IN THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"

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Luke 20:35 isn't contradicting that there will be mortal, married, unresurrected, unsaved people in the current age's final stage, i.e. the future millennium (e.g. Zechariah 14:16-19).

eclipsenow said in post 55:

2 Peter 3:3-10
"3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly....
....10 But the DAY OF THE LORD will come LIKE A THIEF. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare....
...13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

Click to expand...

Regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the 1st heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it's not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

Bible2 said:

Note that Luke 17:27,29, like Matthew 24:39, doesn't mean that all unsaved people will be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming. For Luke 17:34-36 and Matthew 24:40-41 go on to show that some unsaved people will be left alive at that time (Zechariah 14:16-19). So in Luke 17:26-30 and Matthew 24:37-39, the point of the comparison isn't that all unsaved people will be killed at the 2nd coming, but that none of them will be expecting to be killed, but will be eating and drinking without worry right up to the day of the 2nd coming.

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You're lying to yourself here mate. I'm quite happy to be reminded of some symbolism or other that I might be missing, but you're reading of these Luke and Matthew passages is a long, long stretch. You actually defy the plain meaning of the text. How many people survived Noah's story? How many people survived Sodom and Gomorrah?

THEN the flood came and DESTROYED THEM ALL.
28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all."

You're lying to yourself. Both the sudden surprise and comprehensive defeat of evil are in mind in these verses. You're just forcing your own interpretative grid onto these verses.

Originally Posted by Interplanner

All the Thess material should be read in light of the DofJ. The 2nd coming was expected right after it, but allowed to be delayed.
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Originally Posted by AJCServant

Hi all,
and Hi again Interplanner,

Valid points that so many refuse to, or can not "see" for some spiritual reasons, that cause many doctrines- of- men to become used by Beelzebub to steal, kill, and destroy Jesus' inheritances throughout the earth, as he compels many "religious" and unlearned people to be spiritually indolent towards God's plights in destroying the works of the Devil in the earth - I think.

Will anyone rise up and stand in the gap with me for our nations to work to see that Zechariah 14:10 does not occur before 2Peter 2 is to be fulfilled by The Prince of Peace Himself in a surgical and orderly way, and would thereby only be done after we are "all"
[*] evacuated for a short season?


More called-out "believers" truly need to become holy [+] as our God is holy for this to occur - I think.

[+: Holiness defined via scripture is - - "set apart for service" to "all" of mankind, and the Trinity does this without favoritism so that eventually 1 John 3:8b would be fulfilled in the earth as more "believers" would become "Holy" disciples of Jesus.]

Originally Posted by AJCServant

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So I encourage you to "worship" God with your life and He will make His presence known in a deeper more relational and covenantal way every day you will be in His service during your short sojourn here.

I hope I have encouraged some of you a little today and whoever might someday read this post in the future.

God bless.

Into Jesus' love - we should "all" put our trust eternally,
AJCServant
John 10 & 15 & 17 & Revelation 21
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*: Colossians 1:20 - - And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, OR things in heaven.


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]+: 1 John 3:8b - - [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
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Marana tha, INSHALLAH, Amen.
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random person said:

If there were a rapture, then, the resurrection wouldn't be the last day as spoken by Jesus, what we have here is Darby's aberration conflicting with the very teachings of Christ during His first advent. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is speaking of the LAST DAY. Not an imaginery Rapture. These two verses from Thess are speaking of the same event as 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, the same event as Matthew 13:36-43; the same event as Matthew 13:47-52; the same event as Matthew 25:31-46; the same event as Romans 2:5-10; the same event as 2 Timothy 4:1; etc. And I could prove it! 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Now lets read the rest of the passage in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2... that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Revelation 20:9-11; 2 Peter 3:7-13] even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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I do not believe that the ' last day' is one 24 hour period, but it encompasses all the resurrections. There is a resurrection of the righteous that is divided up between the rapture and the second coming of Christ etc. Just like ' the hour of trial', same analogy , it is not a literal hour, but it is the tribulation period ( rev 3) I will keep you from the hour.

Also, look at the day of The Lord . It is not just one 24 hour day. A day is like 1000 years and a 1000 years is like a day in The Lord .

Let's look at Matt 13 , it is about the people who enter the 1000 year period. ( wheat and tares) It is not about the rapture. These are different events you can't group all that you said above into one event( rapture, resurrection of the just) and the great white throne,( resurrection of the wicked) .

In conclusion , there will be a rapture and everything is not just grouped into the same event.

bibletruth469 said in post 59:

Just like ' the hour of trial', same analogy , it is not a literal hour, but it is the tribulation period ( rev 3) I will keep you from the hour.

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Note that the 7 epistles to 7 churches in Revelation chapters 2-3 were sent to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) (what's today western Turkey).

Revelation 3:10 meant that the literal, 1st century AD local church congregation in the city of Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) would be kept safe from a persecution which came upon all the Roman world during the time of the Roman emperor Domitian. For the apostle John saw his Revelation vision (Revelation 1:1) near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), and Domitian persecuted the church toward the end of his reign. The righteous, literal, 1st century local church congregation in the city of Smyrna (Revelation 2:8) in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11) had to suffer and die in that persecution over a period of 10 literal days (Revelation 2:10).

The 1st century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be taken out of the world to be kept safe from (Greek: "ek") that persecution. For, as Jesus prayed for the church in general: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from (ek) the evil" (John 17:15,20). Also, the 1st century church in Philadelphia didn't have to be removed from time itself or from the earth in order to be kept from the "hour" (or the "time") of that persecution, just as, for example, a student in a classroom who has been excused from taking a test doesn't have to be removed from time itself or from the classroom in order to be excused from that time of testing. For he can be made to sit at his desk reading during that time, which won't be a time of testing for him.

Also, the 1st century persecution of Revelation 3:10 (and Revelation 2:10) was only "world"-wide in the sense of the Roman "world" (cf. Luke 2:1). So the subsequent reference to those on the "earth" in Revelation 3:10 should be understood as those Christians living on the earth during that time in the Roman empire, as opposed to those Christians who had already died and gone to heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23).

bibletruth469 said in post 59:

Just like ' the hour of trial', same analogy , it is not a literal hour, but it is the tribulation period ( rev 3) I will keep you from the hour.

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Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus when the catching up together (rapture) of the church will occur (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).