Main arguments against Angels (Gen 6)

yeshuasavedme · Feb 26, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
Brother Tangible, this thread's emphasis on angels and giants is what one gets when one relies on a 'prophet' to guide one's religion. No surprises in the outcome when the beginning is in error.

Jesus is the Prophet we are to listen to and obey.
We rely on Jesus who all the prophets since the first one mentioned by Him, [Abel], testified of.

Jesus called Enoch Scripture -as in sacred writing- when rebuking the Sadducees for not knowing the facts written only in Enoch that in heaven the angels do not marry nor are they given in marriage and that those who attain that kingdom are one with/like/equal to the angels in heaven.

Enoch gives the complete foundational layout received by all after him who had his book to read and who refer to what is written there about the fallen angels before the flood and after. And right down to today, Enoch has been preserved by those who kept it in their Bibles/collection of manuscripts considered sacred and those who have added it to theirs, since discovering it for themselves.

TillICollapse · Feb 26, 2014

Tangible said:
Maybe.

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Heb 13:2

But I know for certain you can't show me a scripture showing that angels are capable of reproduction.

I didn't focus on any part of your posts that dealt with reproduction.

Discussing that would be an aside to what I *was* focussing on, to where you said angels have no physical bodies.

TillICollapse · Feb 26, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
And you'd be right to point to them. Now a Question: Do we presume a spirit does not eat?

I don't know if you presume that or not lol ... I don't presume that. I presume a spirit can eat, though I don't think our physical/fleshly digestive process is a direct reflection of it.

Lion King · Feb 26, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
They were created. If you believe Adam to be a literal person, I ask: Was Adam born?

Yes, Adam was born by God. The Scriptures refer to Adam as God's son:

Kenan was the son of Enosh. Enosh was the son of Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God. Luke 3:38

Sounds like two seperate groups. The morning stars and the sons of God. I think that's why there is an "and" included. We still shout for joy.

Did you shout for joy when the foundations of the universe were being created? I know the angels did.

Anyway, Job 1:6 also calls angels sons of God:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 26, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
And you'd be right to point to them. Now a Question: Do we presume a spirit does not eat?

Food and drink to the satans who are created evil spirits in heaven, and to the demons who are the disembodied spirits of the nephillim, roaming earth until their doom is sealed, is to torture, torment, and afflict those over whom they get to curse, as their prey.

Food and drink to the Holy angels who do not sleep or eat physical food -a class separate from the Watchers, for instance- is to worship and praise the Great God of Glory before His throne, night and day. They do not rest, eat, or sleep, but are wholly sustained in their being by worship and praise offered to God the Great Glory -who also "eats" that sacrifice

and is satisfied with it -pleased with it.
But we who are ransomed will worship, labor, serve, and eat, sleep, and rest, in heaven, just like the Son of Man will also do, in His second creation human being flesh body which we will be adopted into the likeness and image of.

And the Watcher angels do eat food, for manna is angels' food -but only one kind.

Psalm 78:23 Yet He had commanded the clouds above,
And opened the doors of heaven,
24 Had rained down manna on them to eat,
And given them of the bread of heaven.
25 Men ate angels’ food;
He sent them food to the full.

Tangible · Feb 26, 2014

I don't really see why this is such a big deal. IF fallen angels mated with human women, and IF they produced offspring, any of their descendants would have been destroyed in Noah's flood, so they no longer exist. Assuming, I suppose, that demons have not continued to interbreed with humans.

But there has to be some grand, hidden, theological truthiness in all this that is really important to you. What do you hope to prove from this line of hypothetical conjecture?

MoreCoffee · Feb 26, 2014

Considering what a backwater of theology this thread is about it seems to me that it has become way too popular. It ought not to be fed so generously.

Tangible · Feb 26, 2014

True again. I was just curious as to what kind of whacko theorizing was being perpetrated on us this time.

MoreCoffee · Feb 26, 2014

Tangible said:
I don't really see why this is such a big deal. IF fallen angels mated with human women, and IF they produced offspring, any of their descendants would have been destroyed in Noah's flood, so they no longer exist. Assuming, I suppose, that demons have not continued to interbreed with humans.

But there has to be some grand, hidden, theological truthiness in all this that is really important to you. What do you hope to prove from this line of hypothetical conjecture?

Don't forget the genetically engineered giants produced by the fallen angelic scientists in their pre-flood labs who were forced to use gene-splicing to insert angel-genes into human eggs so that they could 'reproduce' because they had no 'seed sacks'.

TillICollapse · Feb 26, 2014

Tangible said:
I don't really see why this is such a big deal. IF fallen angels mated with human women, and IF they produced offspring, any of their descendants would have been destroyed in Noah's flood, so they no longer exist. Assuming, I suppose, that demons have not continued to interbreed with humans.

But there has to be some grand, hidden, theological truthiness in all this that is really important to you. What do you hope to prove from this line of hypothetical conjecture?

Personally, I would like to understand the nature of all things, especially things which may have practical application or relevance to the present day.

Tangible · Feb 26, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
Don't forget the genetically engineered giants produced by the fallen angelic scientists in their pre-flood labs who were forced to use gene-splicing to insert angel-genes into human eggs so that they could 'reproduce' because they had no 'seed sacks'.

Great antediluvian anthropomorphic antics, Batman!

Mama Kidogo · Feb 26, 2014

TillICollapse said:
I don't know if you presume that or not lol ... I don't presume that. I presume a spirit can eat, though I don't think our physical/fleshly digestive process is a direct reflection of it.

I presume a spirit's limitations and abilities are unknown to us in any great detail and would say the same of the substance of Angelic beings.
We know we are both flesh and spirit. We know God is spirit and was made flesh. We know angels are spirit and have appeared to some men and women, most often in a vision but not always. We know they have substance. we do not know what substance the have with any certainty.
But we do speculate a lot. Speculation is not a good source for Christian theology.

Tangible · Feb 26, 2014

TillICollapse said:
Personally, I would like to understand the nature of all things, especially things which may have practical application or relevance to the present day.

What practical application or relevance to the present day could this stuff possibly have?

Are the giants still among us, hiding their identities, fighting amongst each other for dominance, matching each other face to face and sword to sword?

Until finally ... THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE !!!1!!1!one!!!!11!!!

Cue the theme song.

HERE WE ARE! BORN TO BE KINGS! WE'RE THE PRINCES OF THE UNIVERSE!

yeshuasavedme · Feb 26, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
Poetry is lovely.

Obviously you did not even read the Scriptures I posted nor the links which link to a thread I posted years ago on the created temple of God in the created heavens, using much Scripture and the ancient writings to prove God said it, and meant it, and men believed it.
I have lots of corroborating Scripture in that thread that confirms what God has said from the beginning, in the original language of Hebrew, and translated correctly to the Greek of the Septuagint, and translated correctly to the Latin Vulgate, and translated correctly by the Douay-Rheims English.
Only modern men who have hardened their hearts by unbelief and taken the words of fallible men, like Galileo, have changed the Word of God to nonsense in that Psalm and in the Isaiah passage and in others.

TillICollapse · Feb 26, 2014

Tangible said:
What practical application or relevance to the present day could this stuff possibly have?

Are the giants still among us, hiding their identities, fighting amongst each other for dominance, matching each other face to face and sword to sword?

Until finally ... THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE !!!1!!1!one!!!!11!!!

Cue the theme song.

HERE WE ARE! BORN TO BE KINGS! WE'RE THE PRINCES OF THE UNIVERSE!

There are people who experience all manner of "supernatural" types of phenomena. There are people who believe in/pay homage to/ worship/acknowledge/ all manner of things which they attribute spiritual significance to as well. Personally, I would like to understand such things for a variety of reasons and, when/if possible, help in such cases.

TillICollapse · Feb 26, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
I presume a spirit's limitations and abilities are unknown to us in any great detail and would say the same of the substance of Angelic beings.
We know we are both flesh and spirit. We know God is spirit and was made flesh. We know angels are spirit and have appeared to some men and women, most often in a vision but not always. We know they have substance. we do not know what substance the have with any certainty.
But we do speculate a lot. Speculation is not a good source for Christian theology.

I don't dig on speculation much myself either. I typically prefer eye-witness testimony, and revelations from God on issues. Although I recognize that "digging" in pursuit of understanding can be helpful.

Tangible · Feb 26, 2014

I would say that belief in demon-human hybrids would be one thing that would signify the need for spiritual help and guidance. Such a person would greatly benefit from a clear presentation of Law and Gospel.

SummaScriptura · Feb 26, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
They were created. If you believe Adam to be a literal person, I ask: Was Adam born?
Sounds like two seperate groups. The morning stars and the sons of God. I think that's why there is an "and" included. We still shout for joy.

Actually, this is an example of a Hebrew parallelism, not two distinct groups. One group.

yeshuasavedme · Feb 26, 2014

TillICollapse said:
Personally, I would like to understand the nature of all things, especially things which may have practical application or relevance to the present day.

The demons are disembodied spirits of the nephillim, roaming earth and allowed to seduce and to tempt and then to curse sinners and their offspring to the fourth generation, who sin against the Light, so as to torment and afflict them, which is their food and drink.

The demons are disembodied, but the "after that" of Genesis 6 are among the wheat planted in the world, as the tares. the giants spread over the world before the flood and after, being destroyed by David, totally, from the Holy land, were spread over the earth. The ruins of their cites and megaliths are all over the globe.
They are not as tall today as they were in the past, but who knows: they may yet return to that size.

They are evil, without conscience or conviction. They practice witchcraft, sodomy, cannibalism, murder, torture, infanticide, abortion, drug taking, worship of satans, human sacrifice; and all manner of idolatry is taught by them. They form secret societies where all these things are practiced, even to human sacrifice and even in near cities to me, that is done by secret cults.
Some who were victims were selected by neighbors when they were yet children to be "groomed" to be used by them for their evil practices [rape/ impregnation for human sacrifice and drinking of blood in their ceremonies] and have escaped and lived to tell the tale -and to be delivered themselves, from the curses put upon them by those evil sons of the niphilliim blood.

In the Word of God, a nephillim born in flesh is a liar from birth, and the dead nephillim are the bodies that will not rise, as all Adam flesh will.

Tangible · Feb 26, 2014

yeshuasavedme said:
The demons are disembodied spirits of the nephillim, roaming earth and allowed to seduce and to tempt and then to curse sinners and their offspring to the fourth generation, who sin against the Light, so as to torment and afflict them, which is their food and drink.

The demons are disembodied, but the "after that" of Genesis 6 are among the wheat planted in the world, as the tares. the giants spread over the world before the flood and after being destroyed by David, totally, from the Holy land, were spread over the earth. The ruins of their cites and megaliths are all over the globe.
They are not as tall today as they were in the past, but who knows: they may yet return to that size.

They are evil, without conscience or conviction. They practice witchcraft, sodomy, cannibalism, murder, torture, infanticide, abortion, drug taking, worship of satans, human sacrifice; and all manner of idolatry is taught by them. They form secret societies where all these things are practiced, even to human sacrifice and even in near cities to me, that is done by secret cults.
Some who were victims were selected by neighbors when they were yet children to be "groomed" to be used by them for their evil practices [rape/ impregnation for human sacrifice and drinking of blood in their ceremonies] and have escaped and lived to tell the tale -and to be delivered themselves, from the curses put upon them by those evil sons of the niphilliim blood.

In the Word of God, a nephillim born in flesh is a liar from birth, and the dead nephillim are the bodies that will not rise, as all Adam flesh will.

They're easy to spot, actually, if you know what to look for. They all come out at night on a full moon to howl, have no reflections in mirrors and have a particular dislike of crucifixes and garlic.

Main arguments against Angels (Gen 6)

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