Question for Christians

2PhiloVoid · Dec 8, 2013

quatona said:
Can´t speak for the OP, but I sense that the question comes down to

"Is your first and foremost virtue blind obedience, in your worldview?",

or, alternatively,

"Is God himself exempted from (or above) the "objective" moral commands he gave to humans?",

and, in case the answer is "yes", the follow-up question:

"How are we to deal with a divine command that is immoral by the standards given to humans but not immoral for the god (since he´s above that morality). Does a direct command override the general moral rules given out by the same entity?"

We also may want to ask as to WHY God even gives commands to human beings in the first place? Why did God think commands are needed?

quatona · Dec 8, 2013

2PhiloVoid said:
We also may want to ask as to WHY God even gives commands to human beings in the first place? Why did God think commands are needed?

Yes. When it comes to the concept of an omnimax-creator God we even may want to ask why God intentionally created the world in a fashion that made him think commands were needed (i.e. why he intentionally created a problem just so there could be solution).
We may want to ask many of such questions - but here I just tried to interpret the question asked in the OP.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 8, 2013

quatona said:
Can´t speak for the OP, but I sense that the question comes down to

"Is your first and foremost virtue blind obedience, in your worldview?",

or, alternatively,

"Is God himself exempted from (or above) the "objective" moral commands he gave to humans?",

and, in case the answer is "yes", the follow-up question:

"How are we to deal with a divine command that is immoral by the standards given to humans but not immoral for the god (since he´s above that morality). Does a direct command override the general moral rules given out by the same entity?"

I like your ending question. I think it deserves a thread of its own, Quotona.

HitchSlap · Dec 9, 2013

2PhiloVoid said:
Okay...so YOU would have committed a murder. But, it is illogical to create a hypothetical for something that the religious system or belief you are testing already precludes that very hypothetical. Don't you think this hypothetical is inconsistent thinking?

Peace

Yes, as a "sold out" fundamental follower of Christ, I would have to say that indeed if god willed me to murder/kill for reasons unknown, I would be obligated. As a Christian, it is a sin to disobey the will of god.

To suggest your god would never make such a request presumes you know the mind of god. As for precedent, we have examples in the OT where god by divine command requested this very thing. He used his "chosen" people as hit men to murder infants, women and children.

As I said, when I was a Christian, I just knew god wouldn't ask me to do such a thing. However, if a god exists, who is omni everything, then by definition, whatever it decrees is moral, and those who choose to follow it would be obligated to do it's bidding, necessarily.

So, then, the question to which you're hesitant to answer is: If your god asked you to murder someone for reasons unknown, would you?

2PhiloVoid · Dec 9, 2013

HitchSlap said:
Yes, as a "sold out" fundamental follower of Christ, I would have to say that indeed if god willed me to murder/kill for reasons unknown, I would be obligated. As a Christian, it is a sin to disobey the will of god.

To suggest your god would never make such a request presumes you know the mind of god. As for precedent, we have examples in the OT where god by divine command requested this very thing. He used his "chosen" people as hit men to murder infants, women and children.

As I said, when I was a Christian, I just knew god wouldn't ask me to do such a thing. However, if a god exists, who is omni everything, then by definition, whatever it decrees is moral, and those who choose to follow it would be obligated to do it's bidding, necessarily.

So, then, the question to which you're hesitant to answer is: If your god asked you to murder someone for reasons unknown, would you?

Oh...here we go again.

Ok. I see what is going on here. You think Capital Punishment is a form murder. Now the plot thickens............................................

quatona · Dec 10, 2013

2PhiloVoid said:
Oh...here we go again.

Ok. I see what is going on here. You think Capital Punishment is a form murder. Now the plot thickens............................................

Well, personally I am convinced that violence is the last resort of the incompetent, and this appears to be even more the case when the violent person/entity is allegedly omni-competent. But that´s another discussion.

Anyway, I´m not seeing why God would/should/need to appoint individual humans the henchmen for his divine judgements. God could just strike the perpetrators with lightning, or something.

mathetes123 · Dec 10, 2013

2PhiloVoid said:
We also may want to ask as to WHY God even gives commands to human beings in the first place? Why did God think commands are needed?

Do you give commands and make rules for your kids? Why?

2PhiloVoid · Dec 10, 2013

quatona said:
Well, personally I am convinced that violence is the last resort of the incompetent, and this appears to be even more the case when the violent person/entity is allegedly omni-competent. But that´s another discussion.

Anyway, I´m not seeing why God would/should/need to appoint individual humans the henchmen for his divine judgements. God could just strike the perpetrators with lightning, or something.

God likes to use multi-media to teach His lessons to the world. Sometimes He does does use lightning strikes (or burning sulfur, meteors, or other plentiful materials at hand--like water). During the Israelite era, He ALSO used His people, kind of the way Mayors do with city police officers.

But, yes, I agree, this would make for a separate threaded discussion.

quatona · Dec 11, 2013

2PhiloVoid said:
God likes to use multi-media to teach His lessons to the world. Sometimes He does does use lightning strikes (or burning sulfur, meteors, or other plentiful materials at hand--like water). During the Israelite era, He ALSO used His people, kind of the way Mayors do with city police officers.

Sorry, but "he does because he likes to (when he doesn´t happen to like something else)" isn´t much of an explanation, and not really addressing the problem I tried to point out.
On another side-note, I personally reject the validity of any analogy between the relationship of an omni-all creator of everything to his creation and creatures, and parents-children or any inter-human relationship. Just too many essential differences.

quatona · Dec 11, 2013

mathetes123 said:
Do you give commands and make rules for your kids? Why?

Because I am not omnipotent, because I just procreated (instead of creating), because I haven´t created their environment, and because I haven´t created the conditions of (human existence). I have to deal with what´s already there.

Eudaimonist · Dec 11, 2013

mathetes123 said:
Do you give commands and make rules for your kids? Why?

I don't have children myself, but my goal for children would be for them to mature and to learn how to make their own decisions as adults. Yes, this may require some rules while they are little, but they would gradually need to see the sense in those rules and become principled, judging adults rather than mindlessly following orders like good Nazi soldiers.

I have no problem with God making rules for children. But where adults are concerned, why all of the Commandments?

eudaimonia,

Mark

leftrightleftrightleft · Dec 12, 2013

HitchSlap said:
If God told you to murder someone, would you? Why or why not?

This was brought up in another thread, and I think it deserves some serious discussion. Christians claim to have a personal and loving relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Ghost, and are instructed to communicate via prayer on a daily basis (without ceasing), and to cultivate a sensitivity to that still small voice of the Holy Spirit. Christians also claim that to not follow the will of God is a sin. So, my question is this; if during your conversations with God, and he instructs you to murder someone, would you?

Bllind Post

If I was sure 100% it was God, I'd probably say, "Why don't you do it?"

I'd prefer not to have blood on my hands. God can just give the guy a heart attack or something and save me the ruined life and potential jail time.

HitchSlap said:
Additionally, is one's willingness to commit murder as a direct order from God, directly proportional to their spiritual maturity and devotion?

No.

Gottservant · Dec 12, 2013

It depends on the way in which He said it.
So far He has said "Thou shalt not murder" so that makes it impossible for Him to say anything else to the contrary, in any way.
If He had not said "Thou shalt not murder" and he told me to murder I would report myself to a psychiatrist (believe me, talking with them is murder).

The conscience is independent of "title", anything which would have you confuse this is madness.
You will probably ask "but would that mean you stopped believing in God?"

The answer to that last question is "as much".

brightlights · Dec 13, 2013

HitchSlap said:
For the purposes of this hypothetical, I would define murder as killing someone for reasons you do not understand.

Would you obey God under those circumstances?

Basically yes. But you have to deal with my previous comment about the OP's misconceptions.

mathetes123 · Dec 14, 2013

Eudaimonist said:
I don't have children myself, but my goal for children would be for them to mature and to learn how to make their own decisions as adults. Yes, this may require some rules while they are little, but they would gradually need to see the sense in those rules and become principled, judging adults rather than mindlessly following orders like good Nazi soldiers.

I have no problem with God making rules for children. But where adults are concerned, why all of the Commandments?

eudaimonia,

Mark

Because of sin, such as lying, theft, adultery, murder, rape, etc. with all that is wrong in the world are you going to suggest that man is inherently good and therefore does not need rules? The facts don't bear that out.

ThinkForYourself · Dec 28, 2013

mathetes123 said:
Because of sin, such as lying, theft, adultery, murder, rape, etc. with all that is wrong in the world are you going to suggest that man is inherently good and therefore does not need rules? The facts don't bear that out.

People know these are wrong without Christianity and the ten commandments.

ThinkForYourself · Dec 28, 2013

Gottservant said:
It depends on the way in which He said it.
So far He has said "Thou shalt not murder" so that makes it impossible for Him to say anything else to the contrary, in any way.
...

The bible contradicts your statement:

Numbers 31: And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 2 Take vengeance on the Midianites for the children of Israel. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.

God told Moses to murder.

Eudaimonist · Dec 29, 2013

mathetes123 said:
Because of sin, such as lying, theft, adultery, murder, rape, etc. with all that is wrong in the world are you going to suggest that man is inherently good and therefore does not need rules? The facts don't bear that out.

No, you've missed my point entirely.

I'm saying that we need thinking adults who are capable of making moral judgments and having an understanding of why certain actions are or are not justified, not just obedient soldiers who mindlessly follow orders and salute at the right times. It's the difference between being a human being and being a robot.

eudaimonia,

Mark

steve_bakr · Dec 30, 2013

HitchSlap said:
If God told you to murder someone, would you? Why or why not?

This was brought up in another thread, and I think it deserves some serious discussion. Christians claim to have a personal and loving relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Ghost, and are instructed to communicate via prayer on a daily basis (without ceasing), and to cultivate a sensitivity to that still small voice of the Holy Spirit. Christians also claim that to not follow the will of God is a sin. So, my question is this; if during your conversations with God, and he instructs you to murder someone, would you?

Additionally, is one's willingness to commit murder as a direct order from God, directly proportional to their spiritual maturity and devotion?

Such situations call for a psych eval. and the close scrutiny of one's clergy.

Cearbhall · Dec 30, 2013

steve_bakr said:
Such situations call for a psych eval. and the close scrutiny of one's clergy.

Did you mean to say "of," or did you mean "by?"

If you mean the latter, I hope that the clergy members wouldn't actually get any say in the proceedings. If someone is hearing voices that are commanding the person to commit murder, leave it to the psychologists for the sake of the public (and the police, if it's serious enough).

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