Question for Christians

[HitchSlap]

Kill, yes. Murder, no.

And since Christ hasn't shown up asking anyone to kill anyone for the last 2000 years, I'm fairly sure I won't be seeing him do so.

And is there a moral problem with God showing up and asking someone to enforce capital punishment? Being that God has the authority and the wisdom, I don't see how this is a moral problem.

Peace

So, you would kill someone for reasons unknown to you at god's request?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So, you would kill someone for reasons unknown to you at god's request?

Oh...for reasons unknown? HMMMMM. Let me think, HitchSlap!

Yes, IF God had already shown up several times and promised me to be a Father of many nations, and miraculously enabled my wife to become pregnant in old age, after menopause. THEN, yes, I might consider it.

But we both know that God won't do that with me specifically. (You do know that right?)

Peace

 

[HitchSlap]

Oh...for reasons unknown? HMMMMM. Let me think, HitchSlap!

Yes, IF God had already shown up several times and promised me to be a Father of many nations, and miraculously enabled my wife to become pregnant in old age, after menopause. THEN, yes, I might consider it.

But we both know that God won't do that with me specifically. (You do know that right?)

Peace

This is hard for you to answer, isn't it?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is hard for you to answer, isn't it?

No, it isn't that difficult. It only becomes difficult if a person is FORCED to consider it in a philosophical vacuum, by wrenching what seem to be problematic concepts from their narrative and/or historical context. This contortion of logic is not much different that what illusionists do with their slight of hand on the stage. They are successful when they get the audience to make certain assumptions about what they think they are seeing.

So, in essence, IF some being showed up, and I had had absolutely no contact with that same being previously, and that being claimed to be God, and it asked me to kill (or even murder), THEN, no I would not.

Again, as a Christian, I can conclude that this kind of thing IS NOT going to happen, and I can do this since I take the entire Bible as my contextual basis for contemplation. So, if Krishna showed up and asked me to kill my cousins, I wouldn't feel compelled to do so, since I'm a Christian.

Peace

 

[HitchSlap]

No, it isn't that difficult. It only becomes difficult if a person is FORCED to consider it in a philosophical vacuum, by wrenching what seem to be problematic concepts from their narrative and/or historical context. This contortion of logic is not much different that what illusionists do with their slight of hand on the stage. They are successful when they get the audience to make certain assumptions about what they think they are seeing.

So, in essence, IF some being showed up, and I had had absolutely no contact with that same being previously, and that being claimed to be God, and it asked me to kill (or even murder), THEN, no I would not.

Again, as a Christian, I can conclude that this kind of thing IS NOT going to happen, and I can do this since I take the entire Bible as my contextual basis for contemplation. So, if Krishna showed up and asked me to kill my cousins, I wouldn't feel compelled to do so, since I'm a Christian.

Peace

Then my question does not apply to you. My hypothetical was geared for those Christians who claim to have a "close personal relationship," with god. The variety who claim to know god's voice and commands, the one's who think god formed them in the womb and knows the number of hairs on their head at any given time.

I shared your POV when I was a Christian too. I just knew that my understanding of god precluded him from asking me to do any sort of injustice. I now realize that my view of god aligned nicely with morals I already held, and that, in fact, if he did ask me to commit a murder, as my "lord and savior," I would be obligated.

 

[Received]

Haven't read anything but a fraction of this thread, but:

I think this thread could be helped if we first imagined any possibilities (if any) where murder is allowable or even moral.

 

[quatona]

Haven't read anything but a fraction of this thread, but:

I think this thread could be helped if we first imagined any possibilities (if any) where murder is allowable or even moral.

Never. "Murder" is defined as unlawful, immoral killing. That´s how we know it´s always wrong. (Of course, people have different opinions as to what makes a particular case of killing "murder").

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Then my question does not apply to you. My hypothetical was geared for those Christians who claim to have a "close personal relationship," with god. The variety who claim to know god's voice and commands, the one's who think god formed them in the womb and knows the number of hairs on their head at any given time.

I shared your POV when I was a Christian too. I just knew that my understanding of god precluded him from asking me to do any sort of injustice. I now realize that my view of god aligned nicely with morals I already held, and that, in fact, if he did ask me to commit a murder, as my "lord and savior," I would be obligated.

Okay...so YOU would have committed a murder. But, it is illogical to create a hypothetical for something that the religious system or belief you are testing already precludes that very hypothetical. Don't you think this hypothetical is inconsistent thinking?

Peace

 

[Received]

Never. "Murder" is defined as unlawful, immoral killing. That´s how we know it´s always wrong. (Of course, people have different opinions as to what makes a particular case of killing "murder").

Sorry, I was literally thinking of Iraq while I was typing this.

 

[Received]

So if murder is defined as unlawful, immoral killing (works for me), then the OP is basically asking about God commanding evil stuff.

 

[MoneyGuy]

Yes.

I can't believe you folks would disobey.

And dodging the question with, "it's not God."

 

[quatona]

So if murder is defined as unlawful, immoral killing (works for me), then the OP is basically asking about God commanding evil stuff.

Can´t speak for the OP, but I sense that the question comes down to

"Is your first and foremost virtue blind obedience, in your worldview?",

or, alternatively,

"Is God himself exempted from (or above) the "objective" moral commands he gave to humans?",

and, in case the answer is "yes", the follow-up question:

"How are we to deal with a divine command that is immoral by the standards given to humans but not immoral for the god (since he´s above that morality). Does a direct command override the general moral rules given out by the same entity?"

 

[Erth]

I think that in any group of people, atheists included, there are mentally ill people who hear voices that they attribute special significance to, and I guess that in some cases these people have commited murder thinking that they were doing the right thing.

I think it would be a serious mistake to take the question as an inquiry into the spiritual lives of Christians specifically.

 

[quatona]

I think that in any group of people, atheists included, there are mentally ill people who hear voices that they attribute special significance to, and I guess that in some cases these people have commited murder thinking that they were doing the right thing.

Most certainly.
We have to keep in mind, though, that hearing voices nobody else hears and having "personal relationships" with non-physical entities is what certain branches of Christianity take for granted and downright consider the criterium for being a true Christian.
So I think it makes a difference to ask this question about a worldview that generally accepts and even promotes such phenomena, as opposed to worldviews that don´t have such stuff in their repertoire, anyway.

I think it would be a serious mistake to take the question as an inquiry into the spiritual lives of Christians specifically.

I think it´s a question that demonstrates specific problems within some Christian doctrines.

 

[Erth]

Most certainly.
We have to keep in mind, though, that hearing voices nobody else hears and having "personal relationships" with non-physical entities is what certain branches of Christianity take for granted and downright consider the criterium for being a true Christian.
So I think it makes a difference to ask this question about a worldview that generally accepts and even promotes such phenomena, as opposed to worldviews that don´t have such stuff in their repertoire, anyway.


I think it´s a question that demonstrates specific problems within some Christian doctrines.

I would appreciate it if you could be specific about which worldviews and doctrines it is that you are talking about. In the past I have personally attended the services of at least seven distinct denominations of Christianity, and I never heard any preacher say that a Christian should try to identify with his/her faculties of perception a certain voice that says things to the individual that noone else can hear, let alone that one should obey it when such a voice is heard. I have never heard or read about it as something that should be a part of any Christian way of life or doctrine.

 

[quatona]

I would appreciate it if you could be specific about which worldviews and doctrines it is that you are talking about. In the past I have personally attended the services of at least seven distinct denominations of Christianity, and I never heard any preacher say that a Christian should try to identify with his/her faculties of perception a certain voice that says things to the individual that noone else can hear, let alone that one should obey it when such a voice is heard. I have never heard or read about it as something that should be a part of any Christian way of life or doctrine.

Yes, fortunately you an I live in Western Europe where those denominations are fringe groups.
You´ll find a lot of that stuff here on CF, though.

 

[Received]

Can´t speak for the OP, but I sense that the question comes down to

"Is your first and foremost virtue blind obedience, in your worldview?",

or, alternatively,

"Is God himself exempted from (or above) the "objective" moral commands he gave to humans?",

and, in case the answer is "yes", the follow-up question:

"How are we to deal with a divine command that is immoral by the standards given to humans but not immoral for the god (since he´s above that morality). Does a direct command override the general moral rules given out by the same entity?"

Agreed, but I think the OP, by appealing to murder (which is intrinsically defined as wrong), is asking for a contradiction: you know, God who is good commands a bad thing.

 

[Arcwood]

God cannot command a bad thing.

A sin is not in fact any specific action. But is an action taken in contradiction to God.

 

[Received]

Right.

So then the OP has to step back a bit and speak about "killing", which (unless you're a ridiculous pacifist extremist) has its justifications at times, or admit to an impossible demand (a "by definition" good deity commanding something bad).

 

[quatona]

Agreed, but I think the OP, by appealing to murder (which is intrinsically defined as wrong), is asking for a contradiction: you know, God who is good commands a bad thing.

Well, I can´t read the mind of the OP. All I can do is to charitably interpret his post in the way that makes most sense to me.
And this is what makes most sense to me:
Is (bible)god himself bound by the morality he dictates as objective to humans?
There are many instances which suggest he´s not (e.g. he tells us not to judge others but clearly reserves the right for himself to judge us).
This creates a dilemma, in that a spontaneous command (based on god´s authority) may contradict the morality he has dictated.
The problem here is not that god may command a "bad thing", but that there are two different standards for what´s "bad". E.g. judging is not bad per se, but only when humans do it. Now, if god asks a human to carry out his divine judgement...you get the idea.