Tithing and income

Billy Bayou · Nov 19, 2013

These are the words of the wisest man that ever lived. Written in Proverbs which are timeless words to live by.

If my giving is based on these words of wisdom and you consider it foolish, I will take my punishment when I face the only one that matters, at the judgement seat.

Proverbs 3:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the first fruits of all thine increase:
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

Studious One · Nov 19, 2013

Billy Bayou said:
These are the words of the wisest man that ever lived. Written in Proverbs which are timeless words to live by.

If my giving is based on these words of wisdom and you consider it foolish, I will take my punishment when I face the only one that matters, at the judgement seat.

Proverbs 3:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the first fruits of all thine increase:
10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.

The question arises: Was the wise king Solomon speaking of tithes? If so, then this would line up with Malachi 3:10-11

Malachi 3:10-11 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

They both appear to be speaking about tithes. The substance of the tithe under the Law was not money though... it was agricultural produce and livestock.

As GaryArnold so rightly pointed out, tithes and firstfruits were not the same. The children of Israel were responsible for bringing firstfruits into the storehouse, but the Levites were responsible for bringing tithes into the storehouse. The children of Israel were not required to tithe to the storehouse.

Nehemiah 10:37-38 And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage. And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.

This means that only 1% (not 10%) of the children of Israel's total agricultural produce and livestock went to the Temple storehouse. And it was not the children of Israel who were responsible for bringing that 1%... it was the Levites, the staff of the Temple.

The blessings promised in both passages (Prov. 3:8-10; Mal 3:8-11) are the same... an over abundance of agricultural produce.

Now, can you produce a Scripture that says God amended His tithe of crops and livestock to a tithe of money?

Can you produce a Scripture that says God promises a financial or spiritual blessing if one tithes their money?

Can you produce a Scripture that says God amended His Law so that it is no longer Levites who are qualified to receive the tithe, but that it can be received by anyone who is pastoring a Church?

I have searched throughout my Bible and find no such Scriptures. I do, however, find a Scripture that says we are not to add to God's Word. That Scripture, by the way, is from Proverbs as well...

Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

So, where is this Scripture that gives man right today to collect monetary tithes?

GaryArnold · Nov 19, 2013

Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) “Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:”

The verse reads HONOUR the Lord with thy substance (wealth), not give to the Lord your wealth. The verse does not say honour the Lord with a tenth of your wealth, or give to the Lord a tenth of your wealth.

How does one honor the Lord with their wealth? I believe the best way I can honor the Lord with my wealth is to be a good steward of that wealth and use it to glorify the Lord the best I can.

The verse reads AND with the firstfruits of all thine increase. In other words, HONOUR the Lord with the firstfruits of all your produce, or crops (Hebrew word definition). Doesn’t say give to the Lord the firstfruits of your produce, or crops. That comes later in the Word.

For those who say that all thine increase can also mean all your income, read the next verse:

Proverbs 3:10 (KJV) “So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.”

Verse 10 makes it clear that increase in verse 9 is referring to the crops and not income.

Leviticus 23:10 (KJV) “Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:”

The above verse tells us that the Children of Israel were commanded to take the firstfruits of their harvest to the priests.

Numbers 18:21 (KJV) “And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.”

The above verse tells us that the Children of Israel were commanded to take the tithe to the Levites.

Nehemiah 10:37 (KJV) “And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.”

Nehemiah 10:37 confirms that the firstfruits were taken to the Temple for the priests, and the tithe was taken to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities.

TheDag · Nov 19, 2013

GaryArnold said:
Are pastors liars, or are they just plain ignorant as to what the Word says?
Answer: Some are liars (I know some, personally), and some are ignorant.
Some pastors are honest and teach the truth. They don't need to lie about tithing in order to bring in enough to finance the church.

What about you? Some of the claims you have made simply are not supported by the scripture you quoted. You are making assumptions about what the situation was and declaring ministers are wrong. You need to check the scriptures you are quoting more carefully to be certain they do say what you claim they say.

GaryArnold said:
2 - The organized church takes the donation, pays for the building, salaries, utilities, etc. etc. IF there are is anything "left over," they may give it to the poor.

evidence of this claim please otherwise withdraw it. by evidence of this claim I expect you to prove how the churches I have attended have done this. You will find only one of the five churches I have attended has done this. Do not assume that just because some churches do the wrong thing that all churches do the wrong thing. That is bearing false witness.

TheDag · Nov 19, 2013

Studious One said:
Now, can you produce a Scripture that says God amended His tithe of crops and livestock to a tithe of money?

Can you produce a Scripture that says God promises a financial or spiritual blessing if one tithes their money?

Can you produce a Scripture that says God amended His Law so that it is no longer Levites who are qualified to receive the tithe, but that it can be received by anyone who is pastoring a Church?

I have searched throughout my Bible and find no such Scriptures. I do, however, find a Scripture that says we are not to add to God's Word. That Scripture, by the way, is from Proverbs as well...

Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

So, where is this Scripture that gives man right today to collect monetary tithes?

You are asking the wrong question. The question is should we be giving to God? If so then how. If you want to take the bible literally and say that is the only acceptable way to tithe then go ahead but you will run into many problems and bring far greater condemnation on yourself for sticking to that literally.

Are you really so blind you can not see that you defeated your own argument with the scripture you yourself provided to prove your point? You say only the priests tithed and it was 1%. Guess what have a closer look and you will see that the priests were to give a tithe from the tithes they received. That is why it is 1%. Yes the bible does call what the people bought to the priests a tithe. So lets have an example. Say a person had 100 new sheep. They tithed 10 of them. The priest would then tithe 10% of that 10 which is 1. Do you not see the connection. Did you not read the passage where the priests were instructed to tithe 10% of what was given to them for support because the law forbid them from so much that they would have been homeless and starved to death if these allowances had not been made in the law.
Do we still need to give 10%? No not according to the bible.

GaryArnold · Nov 19, 2013

The Levites and the priests worked at the Temple only ONE WEEK OUT OF EVERY 24. The rest of the time they lived in homes on land they were given to live on rent free. They didn't live at the Temple.

The Old Testament tithe was NEVER giving to God. This is the opposite of what the scriptures tell us. The people didn't give the Levitical tithe to God. GOD GAVE THE TITHE TO THE LEVITES. It never did belong to the Israelite farmers.

Read Leviticus 27:30-33. God said the tenth WAS HIS. He reserved that tenth when he gave the Eleven tribes the promised land.

In Numbers 18, GOD GAVE the tithe to the Levites, and told the Levites TO TAKE THE TITHE. No one gave a tithe to God. God did the giving.

Jesus told us only ONE way to give to Him - what we do for the needy/poor we do for Him. That's it. Period.

Giving to a corporation doing business as a church is NOT giving to God. It is giving to man.

The priest did NOT tithe. Period. The NON-priest Levites received the tithe, and the NON-priest Levites gave a tenth of that tithe to the priest. The priests did NOT tithe. Numbers 18. The priests were NEVER instructed to tithe.

If I have misquoted scriptures, show me where.

Studious One · Nov 19, 2013

TheDag said:
You are asking the wrong question. The question is should we be giving to God? If so then how. If you want to take the bible literally and say that is the only acceptable way to tithe then go ahead but you will run into many problems and bring far greater condemnation on yourself for sticking to that literally.

Are you really so blind you can not see that you defeated your own argument with the scripture you yourself provided to prove your point? You say only the priests tithed and it was 1%. Guess what have a closer look and you will see that the priests were to give a tithe from the tithes they received. That is why it is 1%. Yes the bible does call what the people bought to the priests a tithe. So lets have an example. Say a person had 100 new sheep. They tithed 10 of them. The priest would then tithe 10% of that 10 which is 1. Do you not see the connection. Did you not read the passage where the priests were instructed to tithe 10% of what was given to them for support because the law forbid them from so much that they would have been homeless and starved to death if these allowances had not been made in the law.
Do we still need to give 10%? No not according to the bible.

Why are you twisting my words? I did not say only the priests tithed. I said only the Levites tithed to the Temple.

The children of Israel were never told to tithe to the Temple... Never!

RDKirk · Nov 19, 2013

TheDag said:
You are asking the wrong question. The question is should we be giving to God? If so then how.

Answers to that question:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. -- Acts 2

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And Gods grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them.

For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. -- Acts 4

Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, as it is written: The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little. -- 2 Corinthians 8

Interestingly, "tithing" is never mentioned, and the OT reference given is Exodus 16, not Malachi 3.

That's because the Church is not mapped to Israel in the Promised Land, but to Israel in the wilderness, and the Church should be handling its resources like Israel in the Wilderness, which is what is happening in Acts 2 and Acts 4.

thatforumguy77 · Nov 20, 2013

Peace, all.

Ah, now I understand, what is trying to be said here is that we should not give to the institution, aka the Church, but instead, to the needy - for whatever we give to the least of our brethren, we also give unto Him, correct? A reflective giving. According to the statements I gathered above, the Church of Christ, namely all believers, even the instituted groups of all denominations, is to give, not receive. Thus, tithing to the Church (thus the Church receiving bounty) is seen as wrong by some posters here.

I attached some honest questions below, they are not hostile and is fuelled completely by curiosity. So basically, some posters here wants to say that:
- 10% of your "tithe" must instead be given to the poor, this is your
offering to God. This is what the New Testament Pauline Churches practiced.
(This seems true. 2 Corinthians 9:12 pretty much sums this up. Yet, what
then, about Abel, whom God blessed, there is no reference that
he gave his offering to the poor. Why was God so pleased with him?)
- You do not need to give to the Church, but instead, safeguard your wealth
and use it for ministry. (Selective passages used, what about selling all your
belongings and following Christ? Or those other passages RDKirk so quoted?)
- Levites gave 10% as a "tax" for taking something from Israel, and thus,
is separate from actual "tithing." (Sounds about right.)
- The Collection of the saints outlined by Paul was, historically, only used to
support a church undergoing difficult times. And thus, separate from the
tithing required by Old Testament. (Should we completely ignore the old
testament though? What about the principles behind such commands, like
those posted here - gratitude, honouring God, etc.)
- Tithing is outdated. It is replaced by the New Covenant. (I thought no law was
abolished through Christ? But instead fulfilled?)
- Tithe is a sin because it is not God's Command. (I think we should back
away from this first. If we immediately label tithing as a sin, and yet it
exists in the old testament as a law of God given to Moses, are we to say
most written in the Mosaic Law is a sin? This is dangerous ground, I think.
True that the new testament promotes giving to the poor as a sacrifice for God,
but what of the law God gave to Moses, is it to be ignored?)
- We are to rebel against the laws provided by our church institutions and follow
Christ first. (What about the Pauline exhortation to support those in the
ministry? What about the Pauline exhortation to respect and submit to
authority, not only divine, but that of humans? For God instituted them?
There is no rebellion from authority in the Bible, except Macabbees, and thats
contested ground. Are we to ignore these things said of Paul too?)

Lets pray we do not debate and thus divide ourselves and instead get an answer together.

Studious One · Nov 20, 2013

thatforumguy77 said:
Peace, all.

Ah, now I understand, what is trying to be said here is that we should not give to the institution, aka the Church, but instead, to the needy - for whatever we give to the least of our brethren, we also give unto Him, correct? A reflective giving. According to the statements I gathered above, the Church of Christ, namely all believers, even the instituted groups of all denominations, is to give, not receive. Thus, tithing to the Church (thus the Church receiving bounty) is seen as wrong by some posters here.

Since the Word of God says the the Gentile Converts were not to be required to keep the Law of Moses, (Acts 15:28-29) and since the Word of God also states that the ordinances were abolished by Jesus Christ, (Eph. 2:14-15) and in the absence of any of the Pauline epistles instructing the Church to tithe, our belief is that tithing was indeed done away.

I attached some honest questions below, they are not hostile and is fuelled completely by curiosity. So basically, some posters here wants to say that:
- 10% of your "tithe" must instead be given to the poor, this is your
offering to God. This is what the New Testament Pauline Churches practiced.

No, we are not saying give 10% of a tithe to the poor. We do not teach the tithe at all for the reasons I stated above. There is no indication in the New Testament that the Pauline Churches practiced tithing at all. The Greek word for tithes (apodekatoo) is found nowhere in any of the Pauline epistles. Nor is the Greek word for tenth (dekate) found in any of the Pauline epistles. So how can it be said that the Pauline Churches tithed to the poor?

(This seems true. 2 Corinthians 9:12 pretty much sums this up. Yet, what
then, about Abel, whom God blessed, there is no reference that
he gave his offering to the poor. Why was God so pleased with him?)

2 Corinthians 9:12 doesn't speak of tithes. Abel's offering was not tithes. Abel offered firstlings of the flock. Tithes were not firstfruits.

- You do not need to give to the Church, but instead, safeguard your wealth
and use it for ministry. (Selective passages used, what about selling all your
belongings and following Christ? Or those other passages RDKirk so quoted?)

My belief is there is nothing wrong with paying light bills or sanitation bills for the building where the Church assembles. Other than that, moneys should be used to reach the community. But it should not be forced giving. Paul said to give as you purpose in your heart to give. This means the giver chooses for himself what he wishes to give. If he Loves the work of the Lord, he will give accordingly. Where his heart is, there will his treasure be also.

- Levites gave 10% as a "tax" for taking something from Israel, and thus,
is separate from actual "tithing." (Sounds about right.)

The 10% that the Levites gave to the Temple was presented to the Priests and then taken to the Temple storehouse to feed both the Levites and the Priests as they attended to their duties at the Temple in their courses.

- The Collection of the saints outlined by Paul was, historically, only used to
support a church undergoing difficult times. And thus, separate from the
tithing required by Old Testament. (Should we completely ignore the old
testament though? What about the principles behind such commands, like
those posted here - gratitude, honouring God, etc.)

There are no "principles" that warrant a continuation of tithing. Especially in light of the fact that Jesus abolished the ordinances. To start them back up is an affront to Christ and what He did. It is saying He was wrong to abolish them.

- Tithing is outdated. It is replaced by the New Covenant. (I thought no law was
abolished through Christ? But instead fulfilled?)

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

The Greek word for fulfil (kataluo) means "to bring to an end". Christ did not destroy the Law, but He did bring it to an end.

- Tithe is a sin because it is not God's Command. (I think we should back
away from this first. If we immediately label tithing as a sin, and yet it
exists in the old testament as a law of God given to Moses, are we to say
most written in the Mosaic Law is a sin? This is dangerous ground, I think.
True that the new testament promotes giving to the poor as a sacrifice for God,

Tithing today would be a sin since Jesus abolished the ordinances and tithing was an ordinance. As I said, it would be an affront to Jesus. You may as well slap Him in the face and tell Him He was wrong to abolish the ordinances if you are going to teach tithing. The Apostle Paul said if one subjected oneself to the Law, that one must adhere to the whole Law or be cursed. This would mean if you insist on tithing then you need to keep the other 612 ordinances withing the Mosaic/Levitic Law too. This means you must also take animals to the Aaronic Priests for burnt offerings and sacrifices. (yes, I know Jesus became a once for all sacrifice, but if you submit to the Law, you must keep all the Law or be cursed)

but what of the law God gave to Moses, is it to be ignored?)

Yes... unless you want to be held to keeping all the Law as Galatians 3:10 states.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

- We are to rebel against the laws provided by our church institutions and follow
Christ first. (What about the Pauline exhortation to support those in the
ministry? What about the Pauline exhortation to respect and submit to
authority, not only divine, but that of humans? For God instituted them?
There is no rebellion from authority in the Bible, except Macabbees, and thats
contested ground. Are we to ignore these things said of Paul too?)

If the Church is demanding anything that does not align itself with the instructions given for the New Testament Church found in the pages of God's Word, then yes... you should reject those demands.

Lets pray we do not debate and thus divide ourselves and instead get an answer together.

The answer is in the New Covenant. So many would rather leave the instruction found in the New Covenant and adhere to the Old though.

theophilus40 · Nov 20, 2013

Tithing was practiced before the Law was given. See Genesis 14:20 and 28:22. In the New Testament we are not commanded to give a specific amount but we should give as God leads us. If you believe God wants you to give a tenth that is what you should do.

What is commanded is that we put God first in everything we do, including our giving. Jesus promised that if we do that he will make sure we have everything we need. When you receive your paycheck you should give what you think God wants you to give, whether it is a tithe or some other amount, before spending anything on your own needs. Here is a Biblical example of someone who did that.

And as she was going to bring it, he called to her and said, Bring me a morsel of bread in your hand.

And she said, As the LORD your God lives, I have nothing baked, only a handful of flour in a jar and a little oil in a jug. And now I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it and die.

And Elijah said to her, Do not fear; go and do as you have said. But first make me a little cake of it and bring it to me, and afterward make something for yourself and your son. For thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, The jar of flour shall not be spent, and the jug of oil shall not be empty, until the day that the LORD sends rain upon the earth.

And she went and did as Elijah said. And she and he and her household ate for many days. The jar of flour was not spent, neither did the jug of oil become empty, according to the word of the LORD that he spoke by Elijah.
(1 Kings 17:11-16 ESV)

RDKirk · Nov 20, 2013

theophilus40 said:
Tithing was practiced before the Law was given. See Genesis 14:20 and 28:22.

Yep. That was by the Law of Hammurabi, which was the law of Ur, Abraham's hometown. Abraham's tithe as well as Jacob's vow to tithe, was precisely as the Law of Hammurabi specified.

There was no law from God for tithing until the Mosaic Law, but His tithe was entirely different from what Abraham did. God totally redefinied "tithing" for Israel.

In the New Testament we are not commanded to give a specific amount

Click to expand...

So that is not "tithing" by any scriptural definition. Scripturally, "tithing" is a specific amount and must be done in a specific way prescribed by God. If we do anything else other than what God specifically designated as "tithing," then it's not "tithing."

This is more than merely a matter of definitions of the word, because "tithing" is defined by God's word, and God's word carries heavy consequences. We should not play loosely with God's words and definitions, if we truly revere what He says.

GaryArnold · Nov 20, 2013

theophilus40 said:
What is commanded is that we put God first in everything we do, including our giving.

Not so.

OLD TESTAMENT
Proverbs 3:9 (KJV) Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

NEW TESTAMENT
2 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

1 Timothy 5:8 (KJV) But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Using the above principles, the New Testament makes it clear that we are to use the FIRST of our income to take care of ourselves and our family. We are talking about needs, here, not just anything we want. Then we should give generously from what is left.

TheDag · Nov 20, 2013

GaryArnold said:
The Levites and the priests worked at the Temple only ONE WEEK OUT OF EVERY 24. The rest of the time they lived in homes on land they were given to live on rent free. They didn't live at the Temple.

The Old Testament tithe was NEVER giving to God. This is the opposite of what the scriptures tell us. The people didn't give the Levitical tithe to God. GOD GAVE THE TITHE TO THE LEVITES. It never did belong to the Israelite farmers.

Read Leviticus 27:30-33. God said the tenth WAS HIS. He reserved that tenth when he gave the Eleven tribes the promised land.

In Numbers 18, GOD GAVE the tithe to the Levites, and told the Levites TO TAKE THE TITHE. No one gave a tithe to God. God did the giving.

Jesus told us only ONE way to give to Him - what we do for the needy/poor we do for Him. That's it. Period.

Giving to a corporation doing business as a church is NOT giving to God. It is giving to man.

The priest did NOT tithe. Period. The NON-priest Levites received the tithe, and the NON-priest Levites gave a tenth of that tithe to the priest. The priests did NOT tithe. Numbers 18. The priests were NEVER instructed to tithe.

If I have misquoted scriptures, show me where.

tell you what. You answer my questions first before you expect me to answer your questions since I asked mine first. I am waiting for you to provide evidence that the church does do what you claimed. You have condemned all churches for failing in this area so you must be certain and have evidence to make this charge otherwise you are clearly going against scripture. If you phrased things poorly and instead meant that every church you have attended has failed to do this then just say so. If you continue to insist that all churches do the wrong thing then provide evidence. Bear in mind I have been to churches that went without because they budgeted for an increase in support for missionaries and there was not enough money so they paid the missionaries first. Others have done similar things while others the ministers have worked as well as being ministers despite minister being entitled to payment as per the NT. You also made claims and quoted entire chapters as support. Well I read through those chapters. I see no evidence for the claims you have made.

Also please define needy/poor and explain why you are not supposed to help everyone.

Also since you have claimed the bible is irrelevant please do not quote any scripture to support your case. If you are wondering what I am talking about it is where you said you follow the law of the spirit as a reason for why you do follow NT instructions.

TheDag · Nov 20, 2013

Studious One said:
Why are you twisting my words? I did not say only the priests tithed. I said only the Levites tithed to the Temple.

The children of Israel were never told to tithe to the Temple... Never!

Yes I did get confused and thought you had said tithes in general rather than specifically to the storehouse. Sorry. I will try to keep better track of who said what in future.

Still you did not address my post. According to the NT is only right that you give money to those who teach you. So giving to those who teach you is expected. They can of course refuse like Paul did.

TheDag · Nov 20, 2013

RDKirk said:
Answers to that question:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. -- Acts 2

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And Gods grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them.

For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. -- Acts 4

Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, as it is written: The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little. -- 2 Corinthians 8

Interestingly, "tithing" is never mentioned, and the OT reference given is Exodus 16, not Malachi 3.

That's because the Church is not mapped to Israel in the Promised Land, but to Israel in the wilderness, and the Church should be handling its resources like Israel in the Wilderness, which is what is happening in Acts 2 and Acts 4.

Agree with this. Sadly it doesn't happen in most churches because well people don't want to. Mostly people seem content to say I'll pray for you and leave it at that. Don't get me wrong like many do. Praying is not a bad thing but because of the emphasis on being saved by grace through faith most go to the other extreme and forget the bible is very clear about providing practical assistance and doing works that God has prepared for us. You can have people who can't afford food to eat and they just get prayer and if only they would have enough faith but no practical help that meets them where they are.

GaryArnold · Nov 20, 2013

TheDag said:
I am waiting for you to provide evidence that the church does do what you claimed. You also made claims and quoted entire chapters as support. Well I read through those chapters. I see no evidence for the claims you have made.

Also please define needy/poor and explain why you are not supposed to help everyone.

Also since you have claimed the bible is irrelevant please do not quote any scripture to support your case. If you are wondering what I am talking about it is where you said you follow the law of the spirit as a reason for why you do follow NT instructions.

! - I should have said, GENERALLY SPEAKING the organized church takes the donation, pays for the building, salaries, utilities, etc. etc. IF there are is anything "left over," they may give it to the poor.

That statement is based on the many churches I have attended and the many others I am aware of.

2 - I NEVER said you aren't supposed to help everyone. It was Jesus who told us HOW to give or do for Him in Matthew 25:42-45. Nowhere else do I find in the scriptures where Jesus tells us how to give to Him.

Every time we give doesn't mean we are giving to the Lord.

3 - Where did I ever say the Bible is irrelevant? To follow the law of the spirit IS New Testament instructions. We are also under the law of love.

Romans 8:2 (KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 13:8 (KJV) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

GaryArnold · Nov 20, 2013

TheDag said:
You also made claims and quoted entire chapters as support. Well I read through those chapters. I see no evidence for the claims you have made.

Give specifics and I will back up my comments with the scripture.

RDKirk · Nov 20, 2013

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theophilus40 said:
What is commanded is that we put God first in everything we do, including our giving. Jesus promised that if we do that he will make sure we have everything we need. When you receive your paycheck you should give what you think God wants you to give, whether it is a tithe or some other amount, before spending anything on your own needs. Here is a Biblical example of someone who did that.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And as she was going to bring it, he called to her and said, Bring me a morsel of bread in your hand.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And she said, As the LORD your God lives, I have nothing baked, only a handful of flour in a jar and a little oil in a jug. And now I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it and die.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And Elijah said to her, Do not fear; go and do as you have said. But first make me a little cake of it and bring it to me, and afterward make something for yourself and your son. For thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, The jar of flour shall not be spent, and the jug of oil shall not be empty, until the day that the LORD sends rain upon the earth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And she went and did as Elijah said. And she and he and her household ate for many days. The jar of flour was not spent, neither did the jug of oil become empty, according to the word of the LORD that he spoke by Elijah.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1 Kings 17:11-16 ESV)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Looking first at your scriptural example, one fact is salient: The prophet of God told her precisely what to do. This really wasn't her thinking about what she should do, it was the known prophet of God giving her a specific direction--and I'd point out that it was her last morsel, not her first morsel.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It's the same miracle as those when Jesus fed multitudes with a few loaves and fishes. In all three cases, specific instruction was given to a specific person to multiply his resources exponentially.
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[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This miraculous multiplication of resources does still happen--I've seen it happen--but we have to understand where in the process the miracle takes place and what part the hierarchy of the Body has in this process.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]It does not happen with every single person for himself. The multiplication of resources is a spiritual gift that is delivered to some individuals by the Holy Spirit. It's the specific spiritual gift of giving:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us.
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[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] -- Romans 12[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have personally seen the multiplication of resources happen miraculously with individuals who have the gift of giving. They got through the Holy Spirit what needed to be given, and as much as they gave in obedience, that much more they received so their bottom line never showed a penny of decrease--their bank balances never decrease. The loaves and fishes miracle really does happen...today.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Once you actually see the miracle in action, you realize that what everyone else is saying is hooey--seeing the real deal happening for people who actually have that gift is astounding. This definitely does not work for everyone, nor does scripture say it should.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have no doubt there were such people in the congregation of Jerusalem as we read about their operation in Acts 2 and Acts 4.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul, OTOH, is talking about general giving over and above those who are specifically gifted for miraculous giving. But in his case, Paul speaks of redistribution of wealth within the Body of Christ from those who have a current excess to those who have a current lack:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, as it is written: The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little."--[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 2 Corinthians 8[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Paul emphasizes the point of equality in resources by repeating it. Paul even refers to the OT passage that emphasized every person having precisely the equal amount of manna.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes, this is precisely redistribution of wealth within the Body of Christ--and, oh, how Christians in America are loathe to consider that! Most would rather swallow broken glass without water.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Putting God first means doing with our money what God has explicitly told us to do with our money, and that means giving first where it is needed.[/FONT]

I just left a congregation--the only megachurch in our town--after they put in a high-priced Starbucks like coffee shop with a two-story, $2,000,000 water feature. The pastor had said that the water feature would double as a baptismal, but even that turned out to be a lie.

But...I brag about Calvary Chapel of Honolulu, which made a point of making sure that nobody in the congregation lacked--or had to worry about lacking--basic essentials. It was the only congregation I've ever been a member of that kept a widow's list.

Purge187 · Nov 21, 2013

"Yes, you should tithe, but you shouldn't leave the more important things undone either." (Matt 23:23)

I started tithing regularly four years ago, but I felt as though God would rather I donate to help needy Jews instead of greedy televangelists. I can honestly say that He blessed my finances just as He said He would in Genesis 12:3.

Tithing and income

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