Is Catholicism Christianity?

I am aghast that this thread was even posted. What makes a person a Christian? Is it the church they belong to? Nope. Is it the life that they live? Nope. Is it the relationship they have with Christ? YUP! I can tell you from experience that I have found more confessing Christians in the RCC that I have amongst the plethora of fundamentalist denominations.

I have to say how many people who claim to be Christian and are fundamentalists are actually Christians? Does reciting the “sinners prayer” make you a Christian and more than attendance in any church?

The devil would have us distracted from our own relationship with Christ by having us watching everyone else and wondering: are they walking with God?

Yes there are doctrinal differences between the Catholics and the Protestant churches – there are differences in doctrine between the Lutheran and the Presbyterian, the Baptist and the Methodist as well. ON all the ESCENTIAL doctrines ALL Christians agree:

We all agree that God is a trinity and salvation comes from God alone through Christ alone by GRACE alone through faith UNTO good works. Issues of who is in charge here on earth are SECONDARY and cannot save or unsave anyone’s soul.

Most of the divisions between us are rooted in misunderstanding. I’ll wager that if you as a evangelical would take a little time and do a bit of honest research AVOIDING jack chick and other anti-catholics you will find that you are not as different as you at first supposed.


I tell you honestly as a non-catholic with no interst in converting (so no one tries) that I am more comfortable with Catholics in fellowhsip issues than with fundamentalists.

Br. Max, we were having a civilized conversation up to now. It was our first civilized conversation in a long, long time.

Please don't start yelling or bringin personal prejudices. Please.

That you prefer Catholic fellowship to non-catholic is not the question we are discussing.

Originally posted by Athlon4all
This is an issue that I think is a major one for Protestantism/Evangelicalism. I am not trying to come to a conclusion that every Catholic is not saved (there are definately some), but the question is "Is what the RC Church teaches offically, is it Christianity?" I mean doctrines like Papal infallibility, the Papcy, Baptismal regeneration, that only the RC Church can interprete scripture, purgratory (and the doctrine that says that accepting Christ only cleanses us from original sin, and that sins done in this life are not cleansed by accepting Christ), etc. What do people here think? Is the RC Church the woman that's riding the beast in Revelation 17/18?

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I have never seen a single Catholic teaching which contradicts the core of Christianity. Is every one of their teachings "part of Christianity"? I don't think so. Every church has local inventions and rules which are not "part of Christianity" but "additional doctrines believed by this denomination".

Some of what you said strikes me as poor representations of Catholic teaching.

Anyway, no, the RC Church is not the wh*re of Babylon. To the best of my knowledge and understanding, most of Revelation is a reference to immediate issues of the 1st century church, and even if it weren't, it's simply LAUGHABLE to claim that a Christian church, built around worship of and service to Christ, would be considered anything but Christian.

Lambslove: Personal prejudices? Sir, that is my point - this whole topic is prejudiced. The opening thread begins the topic by saying we are too different to be reconciled. I say that you (since I don't truly qualify as a member of EITHER side of this issue) are much more the same than different. My experiences with Catholics have shown me that even when we disagree we can still be brethren in Christ. I have not had similar reception from those of the fundamentalist ilk. I have just as much in common with Pentecostals as with Catholics experientially coming from a Charismatic church with ties to the ministry of Kathryn Coleman. Catholics more often than not are willing to overlook what divides us to focus on what we share in common. Fundamentalists tend to tell me that I need to get saved and be delivered from my popery and I'm not now nor have I ever been RC!! I'm sorry if this appeared to be a generalization of those here in this forum. I am speaking of total experience not just Christian forums experience. Thankfully this community tends to be far less nasty than people in general when it comes to these issues.

I agree that a christian is one who's accepted Jesus as their savior, etc. . That is one reason I don't understand why people think Catholics.. or even JW's, LSD and those sort of religions/denominations aren't christian. We all go to church to learn and have fellowship, don't we? Does it mean that because someone belongs to a certain church they fall into some stereotype that others may have? It really is a personal thing.

Originally posted by Br. Max
Lambslove: Personal prejudices? Sir, that is my point - this whole topic is prejudiced. The opening thread begins the topic by saying we are too different to be reconciled. I say that you (since I don't truly qualify as a member of EITHER side of this issue) are much more the same than different. My experiences with Catholics have shown me that even when we disagree we can still be brethren in Christ. I have not had similar reception from those of the fundamentalist ilk. I have just as much in common with Pentecostals as with Catholics experientially coming from a Charismatic church with ties to the ministry of Kathryn Coleman. Catholics more often than not are willing to overlook what divides us to focus on what we share in common. Fundamentalists tend to tell me that I need to get saved and be delivered from my popery and I'm not now nor have I ever been RC!! I'm sorry if this appeared to be a generalization of those here in this forum. I am speaking of total experience not just Christian forums experience. Thankfully this community tends to be far less nasty than people in general when it comes to these issues.

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Yes, this thread was started with evil intent, but if you had read the posts that followed, you would have seen Catholics and non-catholics getting along for the first time in a long time. We were building comraderie and finding common ground. No one was yelling.

Your personal opinion on fundamentalists doesn't belong here, this is not thread on fundamentalism at all. If you want to bash fundamentalists, judge them or put them in their place, you'll have to open a new thread for that.

If you have something calm and thoughtful to say about whether or not Catholicism can be considered Catholic, we'd love to hear it.

Some people believe that Catholicism violates too much of what they feel are the "fundamental doctrines" of Christianity. A good example of this is Sola Scriptura. Some people think that the Bible as the sole source of revealed Truth is *essential* to Christianity, and because Catholics don't believe this, that alone makes them not Christian.

Many of the "Catholics are not Christians" statements are based on misonceptions or misunderstandings about what Catholicism teaches, though.

-Chris

Maybe this is a good place to calmly set misunderstandings straight.

There are references to babylon throughout the bible, starting with REV. 17:5, then looking at 1 Peter 5:13, and even Isaiah 47:1 -48.

Which though having plenty of analogies to The Catholic Church, even as sitting on seven hills, and keeping in mind that REV was written in 95 ad or so... as would reference other items there... But and the big BUT being that also if you continue, it says "Come out of her my people.." which would indicate that even though the church as an institution may be in the wrong, there are faithful believers within it.

Personally and you all know my position on idolatry I'm sure... but I see the harlot not as the Catholic Church per se, but the roman church that preceded her, of which there remains a remant mixing within the Catholic church... both in physical persons and in certain beliefs... of which some fall for and some escape from for whatever reason...

Personally I prefer to stay away because the theology strikes me as incredibly deceptive. It's the only church I've ever attended for instance, that during the last week of October, gave all the kids in sunday school, of which my daughter was one little 3 year old (we'd only been to the catholic church a couple times in her life though), a bunch of papers with ghosts and witches to color as their catechism lesson that day... in honor of all souls day of course, another grand church inspired institution....

Needless to say, we never went back. And I still don't think it's funny.

I don't think the word harlot here refers to anything sexual in literal terms, but rather means sort of... making one's bed with many diverse others...

Originally posted by lambslove
I understood that, but I wanted to steer him away from thinking that anything other than human Believers can be Christian. It is the state of your heart and soul that makes you Christian, not your theology.

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Yes and no I will explain below.

"Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately." Acts 18:24-28 NIV

Apollos's theology was perfect, but he wasn't a Christian at the time. [/B]

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First Apollo's theology was not perfect.  He knew much but the text states that "though he knew only the baptism of John."  If this is true then he lacked some information.  Basically his theology was good for as much as he knew but was ignorant about some of the important things in scripture.  That is why Priscilla and Aquila had to "explain some things to him more adequately."

Second no one's theology does not have ot be perfect to be a Christian but there are certain beliefs one must have.  For example I can't believe that Jesus was not God and be a Christian nor can I not believe that Jesus paid our debt on the cross and still be a Christian.  So theology is important and incorrect theology can make it so one is not a Christian.  For example look at the Jws or the Mormons.  They are not Christians because they believe in the wrong theology. 

But yes one does not have to have perfect theology.  Look at me I am still learning everyday how I was wrong the day before.  If we had to have perfect theology I would be still a long ways from the narrow road.  But then again so would Aquins, Luther, Calvin, Augustine and proabably even Paul, peter and John.  None of these had perfect theology.  The only human to have that was Jesus.  So I would say one needs adequate theology not perfect theology.  But we do need theology.  We can't believe what we do  not know and we can't put are faith in a Lord we do not believe in or even know. 

But again I believe the RCC is a Christian church and there are many Christians and many nonChristians who call themselves Catholics.  You are right again that one can have very good theology but not be a Christian.  That is if they know what is right but do not relly believe it then they are not saved. 

 

Ya know, I was going to post something here, but I really think it'd be best if I held my tongue.

Originally posted by Athlon4all
This is an issue that I think is a major one for Protestantism/Evangelicalism. I am not trying to come to a conclusion that every Catholic is not saved (there are definately some), but the question is "Is what the RC Church teaches offically, is it Christianity?" I mean doctrines like Papal infallibility, the Papcy, Baptismal regeneration, that only the RC Church can interprete scripture, purgratory (and the doctrine that says that accepting Christ only cleanses us from original sin, and that sins done in this life are not cleansed by accepting Christ), etc. What do people here think? Is the RC Church the woman that's riding the beast in Revelation 17/18?

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Athlon4all
If you're doing a study for school on the RCC, then I seriously suggest that you go to a library/bookstore and get the book Catechism of the Catholic Church. This explains the RCC's stance on pretty much everything. They also have this entire book at http://www.catholic.org . I also suggest that you make this decision on your own, as opposed to other people's opinions.

Originally posted by chelcb
 

 

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Chelsi, all is not lost. Remember Athlon did say that "(there are definately some)" Catholics who are saved.
All is not lost. Maybe it will be decided that we are one of the chosen "saved"! Maybe *they* will decide that we are REAL Christians.
Wouldn't that be nice?
But let's not interrupt the REAL Christians while they are discussing the fate of our souls.

So keep your fingers crossed Chelsi!

Annabel Lee,

My heart just breaks for what Jesus must be suffering because of this.

Originally posted by chelcb
Annabel Lee,

My heart just breaks for what Jesus must be suffering because of this.

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All sarcasm aside, I agree.
I don't think people realizes just how much it hurts to have your Christianity questioned.

I meet the criteria. I am not Catholic, nor have I ever been.

I was once a young teenager, recently born again in a Southern Baptist Church. An elder in the church took it upon himself to get me my own copy of "The Two Babylons" a classic text that shows the Catholic church as the harlot of Babylon and more. This book contends that communion in the Catholic church is modeled after the worship of Osiris. The elder wanted me to realize that all churches were not equal. Some were evil.

I read the book. I listened to my elders. I joined in hating Catholics. I hated homosexuals, abortion providers and recipients, Communists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Methodists, independent Baptists, and the people who split off from us and went to that "other" SBC church down the road. It is very tiring to hate so much.

It wasn't until much later in my life that I came to realize my own sin. I had been guilty of believing that God sent his Word to earth in print and that I had my own personal copy. (which I should thank a Catholic for) I came to realize that the way I characterized Catholics was not true to what Catholic people really were. To find out what Catholics believe, I had to ask one. I made friends with several. I even worked with a priest who was a mime. I was a clown and we did an act together.

So if you really want to know if Catholics are Christians, then change the thread. You need to talk to Catholics, not those who are not. How could those who are not answer you?

Regarding Revelation. It is an apocalypse. Apocalypse literature has several key characteristics. It is literature born out of opression and tribulation. It describes political happenings and using symbolism that is known to the people at the time. There are phrases like "seal this up until the time of the end", which, of course, is to be taken as the time that the audience is reading it. Martin Luther, father of the Protestant Movement of which you seem to be a part now, wanted Revelation taken out of the canon along with James and a couple of others. Later, the church adopted the protestant OT (missing the intertestament literature) but the Catholic NT. Weird. Catholics being condemned by a book they kept in the canon. Somedays, I wish Luther would have been successful in keeping Revelation out. For what it is worth.

Is Catholicism Chrisitianity?

Well, the Catholics I've met always identify themselves proudly as Catholics, not Christians, to distinguish themselves from protestants who have "gone astray".

Personally, I believe there are saved Catholics becos many of them do confess Jesus as their Lord and Saviour.

Originally posted by chelcb

My heart just breaks for what Jesus must be suffering because of this.

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He knew. He told us this would happen.

But it's one thing to be told, and another to experience it.

Originally posted by Stormy
Auntie: Please don't be so gullible. If this person were interested in the truth he would not have purposely exempted the Catholics from answering.

I can not see how it can be allowed that a Church can be attacked and its members are to say nothing?

If you are looking for something wrong... there's a good place to start!

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Sorry you think me gullible, Stormy!

I believe in giving everyone the benefit of the doubt. I would rather be "gullible" and wrong on occassion, than always assume the worst of people. I choose to assume Athlon4all is still learning and growing and seeking the truth(aren't we all??). If I am wrong about him, I will surely find out soon enough! But isn't it better to assume Athlon4all is sincere, and see this as an opportunity to show someone the truth? Instead of getting defensive, try answering his questions with a sincere desire that he would come to an understanding of the truth.

Galatians 5:22-23
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."


I was raised in a church that taught that salvation was thru the pysical act of water baptism, and not thru the Lamb of God my Jesus. When my husband and I first married, I went with him to his church. I was *appalled* to hear them say that salvation was thru Jesus! I had never heard such teachings! I confronted the Sunday School teacher, interrupting the class, demanding to know how in the world he could say that salvation was thru Jesus!! Thank God the teacher didn't take offense! Instead, he took a deep breath and began to witness the truth of the gospel to me, with patience, gentleness, longsuffering, meekness. Needless to say, I got saved that day. But if the teacher had become defensive, or ignored my rantings, only God knows when I would have heard the truth of Christ's salvation.

Stormy, many people are taught falsehoods about the Catholic Church, and believe those falsehoods to be the truth. You can take offense, or you can try to open their eyes and hearts to the truth. Even if the person turns out to be a troll, someone else will read your words and profit from them.