Thinking isn't doing :/

Lady Bug said:

Well, I managed to start peeking at Ware's book "The Orthodox Church" again (some of you may recall a thread I wrote about this, recently), and I think I would like to keep reading the parts I wanted to. But the problem with me is, I don't know if I could actually do the Orthodoxy even if I liked the theology, and I ask myself if I should continue reading about it to the best of my ability if I feel that I cannot commit to it the way you guys have? It looks very rigid to me and I don't want to feel like less of a Christian for saying this but it's not the theology I think I will have a problem with, but practicing it. I don't know if (practice-wise) it is for me, yet I don't want to abandon the theology aspect of it just yet. I still want to keep reading about it. Is there any point to doing this, when the thought of actually practicing Orthodoxy seems inconceivable to me right now?

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From what you've read thus far, which parts would you say look "very rigid"? I'd be interested to see your thoughts on that.

As far as whether or not you should keep reading, I don't think I'm qualified to say that you should or shouldn't do anything. It couldn't hurt, I suppose.

Lady Bug said:

Well, I managed to start peeking at Ware's book "The Orthodox Church" again (some of you may recall a thread I wrote about this, recently), and I think I would like to keep reading the parts I wanted to. But the problem with me is, I don't know if I could actually do the Orthodoxy even if I liked the theology, and I ask myself if I should continue reading about it to the best of my ability if I feel that I cannot commit to it the way you guys have? It looks very rigid to me and I don't want to feel like less of a Christian for saying this but it's not the theology I think I will have a problem with, but practicing it. I don't know if (practice-wise) it is for me, yet I don't want to abandon the theology aspect of it just yet. I still want to keep reading about it. Is there any point to doing this, when the thought of actually practicing Orthodoxy seems inconceivable to me right now?

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Is you're concern that there would be a lack of freedom in Orthodoxy compared to what Protestant/Evangelical churches typically have?

I can understand that rigidity POV~compared to the churches I've belonged to in the past (baptist/evangelical) it does appear rigid. But when I think about it those other churches actually required very little of the members beyond showing up, maybe volunteering for VBS, paying in offerings/tithes, etc. The difference I'm seeing is that Orthodoxy's rigidity is in working toward the growth and salvation of the individuals...it would be "easy" to say the fasts and liturgies are "outdated" and take the popular casual approach to worship but they refuse knowing if that is what is wanted there are places out there to fill the need.

Yes keep reading!

After thirty years I do not see Orthodoxy as rigid but liberating, nothing is forced, you go at the pace you can sustain. Everything is done because we choose to, want to get closer to God, not because we have to. That is why having frank discussions with your priest is important. We are in it for the long haul and do not want to burn out, but want a steady transformation.

I hope that makes sense!

Rigid is better than arbitrary; which is what I got growing up protestant.

I was worried about the rigidity as well before I converted. But I found it not so much rigid as structured, something I hadn't realized I needed until I got it. My analogy is based on child-rearing: children actually like structure, thrive on it. Studies have shown again and again that if children don't have structure in their lives they suffer for it later. In Protestantism, there wasn't any structure - we would search for whatever church fit what we *wanted*, what *we* believed. I know at least that I had no structure and a floundered in that environment.

Orthodoxy is structure - it gives us the Truth and says "Here's what you should do to grow closer to God" and gives us Fathers to help guide us along the way so we aren't overwhelmed by it all. It's the good Mother who tells us to eat our vegetables, even if we don't like them, and that we need a good night's rest and, no, we can't go out late with friends. It's hard, yes, but it also is *right*.

Are you referring to the fasting, OP???

Rigidity is an expression often used by psychologists to denote belief in Judeo-Christian morals such as found the Ten Commandments. I knew a wonderful young man who was kicked out of St. John's Seminary in Camarillo (3rd year theology student) simply because he believed that the homosexual lifestyle was sinful. The social worker "sister" who was in charge of screening pre-diaconate seminarians, was appalled that he had the guts to say that sodomy was a sin in homosexual relationships. She concluded that he would make a horrible confessor.

If rigidity is a concern, then kindly talk with your priest as an atheistic therapist or one who espouses secular humanism might be misguiding you. If you need to see a therapist, then seek out a Christian one.

MrJim said:

I can understand that rigidity POV~compared to the churches I've belonged to in the past (baptist/evangelical) it does appear rigid. But when I think about it those other churches actually required very little of the members beyond showing up, maybe volunteering for VBS, paying in offerings/tithes, etc. The difference I'm seeing is that Orthodoxy's rigidity is in working toward the growth and salvation of the individuals...it would be "easy" to say the fasts and liturgies are "outdated" and take the popular casual approach to worship but they refuse knowing if that is what is wanted there are places out there to fill the need.

Yes keep reading!

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That's kind of what I was going to say, that Orthodoxy may appear rigid from an Evangelical standpoint because we're often used to a very disorganized free-for-all style of church experience. However, I would suggest that the type of 'freedom' that we often associate with said free-for-alls is actually not much freedom at all, because it doesn't provide for the holistic growth in Christ that Orthodoxy seems to offer. The anarchic, whimsical style of Evangelicalism may get people in the doors and introduce them to Christ, but I don't think it has much "staying power".

Lady Bug said:

Yo everyone Yup I was referring to the fasting LOL, when I said rigidity.

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Funny what kind of bunny trails can spring up huh? Lol.

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Hey Lady Bug. I think the vast majority of Orthodox Christians struggle with fasting (I know I do!). It's a lifetime process. You start out new like a baby and you stumble a lot. As you go along in the years it becomes more familiar and you learn to walk. Then after so much a time you'll probably be able to run as fast as you can. From what I've seen, most of the great aescetic saints were well up in age. It took them a long time to get there and they got there very patiently.

MariaRegina said:

The social worker "sister" who was in charge of screening pre-diaconate seminarians, was appalled that he had the guts to say that sodomy was a sin in homosexual relationships. She concluded that he would make a horrible confessor.

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Yes, perhaps a horrible confessor of false teaching. Just my opinion.

The one definite Fast that is pretty non-negotiable except for serious health reasons is the Sunday morning fast. Initially, being a guy who REALLY LOVES HIS BREAKFASTS!!!!, I was blown-away and totally freaked-out about a Sunday morning fast. Basically "no way! no way!" was my response.

In reality, it is easy. Doesn't bother me at all now.

The other fasts my priest, Father George, recommends you work your way into gently over time. He reminds us that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. These fasts are to aid in our walk, strengthen us, bring us closer to Theosis, not torture. He advises people talk with their Spiritual Father (priest) and really work out these things, take things slow and steady, and remember what they're for. I wouldn't let fasting scare you away from Orthodoxy. There is economia and not the usual one-size-fits-all stuff you would see in Catholicism about these matters.

Best of luck

Lady Bug said:

Yo everyone Yup I was referring to the fasting LOL, when I said rigidity.

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Lady Bug said:

Yo everyone Yup I was referring to the fasting LOL, when I said rigidity.

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one of the Sundays before we start Lent, we read the Publican and the Pharisee, and it's a fast free week. we read this because fasting in of itself does nothing. we fast because it helps open us to God's grace. but the how and what of the fast is between each person and their priest depending on their personal condition. believe me I thought the fasting thing was daunting as well when I was looking into Orthodoxy, but my priest gave me some solid words when I asked him about it. he said the only way to fail a fast is to think you actually completed it.

so when you read about all the rules, don't worry about it. you do tha fasting, you fail, you confess, and you struggle slowly and patiently. don't worry about being uber correct in your fasting. there are plenty of saints who broke fasts I am sure.

as Fr Seraphim Rose points out, when we do things like fasting and prayers and such, we need to approach them on our own level, based on our circumstances. so just talk to your priest about this and don't worry too much.

Fasting from food, i have never done this, i wonder if i could gain anything from it.

weathered said:

Fasting from food, i have never done this, i wonder if i could gain anything from it.

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I'd say so. Christ fasted, certain demons can only be cast out by prayer and fasting, Christ said when (not if) you fast, etc.

ArmyMatt said:

I'd say so. Christ fasted, certain demons can only be cast out by prayer and fasting, Christ said when (not if) you fast, etc.

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Yes, i have heard the demon thing before many times, makes me think people think i have a demon. Im not thinking you are suggesting that though, what you say is sound doctrine.

But paul had thorn in his flesh sent from God i think, a messenger of some kind, not sure what that was.

But anyway i wonder if fasting can help spiritually as well as physically. I have fasted before but not on purpose, i just spent my food money on other things most of those times, i have health problems though and if i don't eat i don't feel good at all, i get all messed up. I don't know, just thinking out loud i guess.

I have fasted from things other than food though.