Is Faith A Gift Or A Work?

3rdHeaven · Jan 9, 2012

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (NASB)

We understand that God's grace is a gift, but what is faith?

Which is the gift, salvation or faith? Would a more accurate reading be:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, that is to say, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

If faith is a gift doesn't that mean men no longer bear the responsibility to believe the Gospel?

Faith is not a substance that can be transmitted is it?

But if faith is not a gift then is it a works? How can we then say we are not saved by works if faith is a works required to believe?

Waiting for a healthy workout here! What do you think and why?

DeaconDean · Jan 9, 2012

Salvation is the "gift" spoken of in Eph. 2:8-9.

See:

But also understand, true genuine "saving faith", the faith that renounces self, and takes ahold of Christ, is a gift also.

Everybody has some sort of faith, but genuine saving faith is a gift.

For example:

"And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." -Mk. 9:24 (KJV)

Here is a man who had some sort of faith, but even he admited that he lacked true faith.

God Bless

Till all are one.

jax5434 · Jan 10, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
We understand that God's grace is a gift, but what is faith?

Which is the gift, salvation or faith? Would a more accurate reading be:

Click to expand...

Faith, Grace and Salvation are all gifts of God.

If faith is a gift doesn't that mean men no longer bear the responsibility to believe the Gospel?

Click to expand...

There are many "faiths" that do not believe the gospel. A saving faith requires not just belief in the gospel message but also faith in the veracity of the gospel.

Faith is not a substance that can be transmitted is it?

Click to expand...

Transmitted by whom? From man to man no. From God to man yes.

But if faith is not a gift then is it a works? How can we then say we are not saved by works if faith is a works required to believe?

Click to expand...

Would you please give me a definition of "works" as it applies in this Statement?

God Bless
Jax

3rdHeaven · Jan 10, 2012

I would be interested in learning what verses you would use to support that faith is a gift, which would imply it is transmitted (given) to man from God. I'm surprised I had to clarify it is from God.

I noticed you and another have decided to call this type of faith, "saving faith" and play with the variations of types of faith (many faiths). Any scriptures to support this view?

Equally problematic is even if we say faith is not a gift as many hold the view,

God has sent His Holy Spirit into the world to convict men of sin and to enlighten darkened and depraved minds to the saving truths contained in Scripture (John 16:8; Rom 10:17; Eph 3:9). When one is regenerated, it is yieldedness to the filling ministry of the Holy Spirit, not infused faith, that results in good works. From Ephesians 2:8 and the collective whole of NT data, God is presented as the gracious initiator who, through His Holy Spirit, woos and wins men to Himself. Man is depicted as the responder who, in his spiritually destitute state, is convicted and enlightened by the Holy Spirit, and answers in simple faith to the promises of the Gospel. [(Source)

the problem with this view is it would imply that "works" is indeed needed and we could brag one had more faith then another.

I'm just genuinely interested how each school of thought address this topic.

DeaconDean · Jan 10, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
I would be interested in learning what verses you would use to support that faith is a gift, which would imply it is transmitted (given) to man from God. I'm surprised I had to clarify it is from God.

I noticed you and another have decided to call this type of faith, "saving faith" and play with the variations of types of faith (many faiths). Any scriptures to support this view?

Equally problematic is even if we say faith is not a gift as many hold the view,

the problem with this view is it would imply that "works" is indeed needed and we could brag one had more faith then another.

I'm just genuinely interested how each school of thought address this topic.

While in seminary, I was taught this:

Abstract of Systematic Theolgy, James P. Boyce, Chapter XXXIV, Faith.

And I might suggest:

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Part III, Soteriology, Chapter XVI, Faith.

And I believe it.

But, just an honest observation, I can see that this is going to go nowhere.

You have already made excuses for what has been presented thus far.

What will you do when those who are smarter and more educated than I on Reformed Theology give you the exact same answers?

Oh well, I shall refrain from further remarks until I see what others from Soteriology have to say and your objections to their arguments.

God Bless

Till all are one.

jax5434 · Jan 10, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
]I would be interested in learning what verses you would use to support that faith is a gift,

lets start with Hebrews 12:2 "....looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith"

which would imply it is transmitted (given) to man from God. I'm surprised I had to clarify it is from God.

If you spend much time in these forums you learn not to take anything for granted. I did not mean to offend you but; yes this type of clarification is often necessary.

I noticed you and another have decided to call this type of faith, "saving faith" and

play with the variations of types of faith (many faiths)

Click to expand...

.

Are you saying any kind of faith is sufficient? We are not saved by faith in faith, as you seem to imply but by a very specific faith in Jesus as our Lord and savior. That alone is what saves us thus "saving faith"

the problem with this view is it would imply that "works" is indeed needed and we could brag one had more faith then another.

Click to expand...

I agree, that is the problem with that view. However since I do not hold that view (nor i think any other baptist on this forum) I see no reason foe me to debate that position.

I'm just genuinely interested how each school of thought address this topic.

Click to expand...

I am not sure how many different school of thought you will find on this forum.I believe most baptist's at least are pretty much in agreement on this. But i have been wrong befor

God bless
Jax

bling · Jan 10, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
We understand that God's grace is a gift, but what is faith?

All mature adults have some degree of faith in the form of trust in themselves. This trust/faith does not appear in animals, so it is a natural gift from God to all mature adult human. Is there any mature adults in the world that do not have at least some trust in self?

Which is the gift, salvation or faith? Would a more accurate reading be:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, that is to say, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

Because of the grammar it is the whole phrase saved through faith, but the faith portion of the phrase is really describing the gift of salvation.
You can also look at the context with the next verse

9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Paul could not be talking about faith being worked for and thus boasting that you worked at and developed faith? That is totally not logical or possible. We do know people did tried to work (earn) their salvation, so Paul saying Dont try to earn (work for) your salvation is a logical warning.

If faith is a gift doesn't that mean men no longer bear the responsibility to believe the Gospel?

It only takes a very little natural trust to be directed toward the existence of a Benevolent Creator to allow a person to humbly accept Gods charity. The act of trusting in a benevolent Creator is a humbling activity (moving from trusting in your own ability to resolve your problem to turning to God for help) it is an activity the lowliest mature adult on earth can do.

Faith is not a substance that can be transmitted is it?

right

But if faith is not a gift then is it a works? How can we then say we are not saved by works if faith is a works required to believe

?

Faith in the form of trust is a gift all mature adults have, turning that faith away from self (trusting self is something you can take pride in, so this is like giving up on your own efforts [works]) and trusting a benevolent Creators enough to accept His Charity is not work. Humbly accepting Charity is never considered work and is really less than doing nothing.

nobdysfool · Jan 10, 2012

bling said:
All mature adults have some degree of faith in the form of trust in themselves. This trust/faith does not appear in animals, so it is a natural gift from God to all mature adult human. Is there any mature adults in the world that do not have at least some trust in self?

Trust in self is not a godly faith, and cannot save anyone. As for whether animals have this kind of faith, i think the jury is out on that one. Animals certainly have confidence in what they naturally do. Confidence would be another synonym for faith, if we're talking broad definitions.

However, saving faith is not a naturally-occuring response in the natural man (meaning the unsaved, unregenerate man). Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God. What kind of faith? Saving faith. Not ordinary "I believe the sun rises in the east, and gravity keeps me on the ground" kind of natural faith/confidence/trust in natural things, that which can be seen, touched and felt. The Gospel is supernatural in its content. The natural man cannot receive it, or understand it. God must open the heart, regenerate the man, in order for the gospel to do its work, that of causing saving faith to flow into the heart, and flow out in belief to God.

bling said:
Because of the grammar it is the whole phrase 

bling said:
saved through faith, but the faith portion of the phrase is really describing the gift of salvation.

bling said:
You can also look at the context with the next verse

9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Paul could not be talking about faith being worked for and thus boasting that you worked at and developed faith? That is totally not logical or possible. We do know people did tried to work (earn) their salvation, so Paul saying Dont try to earn (work for) your salvation is a logical warning.

Why did Paul say that? Because it is impossible to earn salvation. God has specifically set it up this way, so that he alone receives the Glory and credit for any man's salvation. It specifically removes any basis to boast on man's part, because if he is honest, he knows that saving faith did not come from himself, it came from God.

bling said:
It only takes a very little natural trust to be directed toward the existence of a Benevolent Creator to allow a person to humbly accept Gods charity. The act of trusting in a benevolent Creator is a humbling activity (moving from trusting in your own ability to resolve your problem to turning to God for help) it is an activity the lowliest mature adult on earth can do.

Then Paul lied when he said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That clearly states that saving faith does not come from within ourselves, it comes from God via His Word, when received in a heart opened by God to hear and understand that Word.

bling said:
right
?

No, you're not right on that.

bling said:
Faith in the form of trust is a gift all mature adults have, turning that faith away from self (trusting self is something you can take pride in, so this is like giving up on your own efforts [works]) and trusting a benevolent Creators enough to accept His Charity is not work. Humbly accepting Charity is never considered work and is really less than doing nothing.

No matter how many times you try to say it, and try to make it sound right, you miss the fact that you are claiming that man's own faith is enough to save him, thereby ignoring scriptures that specifically show that man does not have it within himself, by himself, to exercise that kind of faith, the kind of faith that brings salvation. Man just does not have that ability. Part of the problem is that we have one or two words that encompass far too much in their definition; Faith, and Trust. God must impart saving faith to the man for the man to then believe and receive salvation. Salvation is all of God, none of man. Any system that gives man even a smidgeon of contribution to the actual saving of himself is unscriptural. Man is totally and completely at God's mercy, unable to in any way save himself, or entice God to save him. We cannot even take our next breath unless God allows it.

Skala · Jan 10, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
We understand that God's grace is a gift, but what is faith?

Which is the gift, salvation or faith? Would a more accurate reading be:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, that is to say, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

If faith is a gift doesn't that mean men no longer bear the responsibility to believe the Gospel?

Faith is not a substance that can be transmitted is it?

But if faith is not a gift then is it a works? How can we then say we are not saved by works if faith is a works required to believe?

Waiting for a healthy workout here! What do you think and why?

Hi brother. I have studied this in the past and would be honored to take up the challenge of explaining my understanding.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Four words are highlighted here. The pronoun "this" is the word in question. What is the "this" that is being referred to? Is it referring to one of the three words (grace, salvation, faith)?

The answer is no, it is not referring to one single word in particular, but rather, it is referring to the collective phrase. Thus, the "gift" that the pronoun "this" is referring to is "being saved by grace through faith". That is the gift. Being saved by grace through faith - all of it - is the singular gift that Paul is talking about.

Why?

The word "this" is a neuter demonstrative pronoun. Neuter meaning it has no gender (In Greek words have genders, such as female or male). Rules of Greek grammar say that a pronoun must match its antecedents in both number (singular, plural) and gender. (male/female). The antecedents in this case being grace, salvation, and faith.

In this case, the number is not matched, nor is the gender. The gender of the antecedents are grace (female), salvation (male), and faith (female).

Since the pronoun does not match any of the antecedents, it cannot thus be referring to any of them.

The idea here is that the Apostle Paul was not pointing to any single one of them in particular, but rather, he was referring to the collective phrase. Hence his choice of that particular pronoun.

That is, our entire status of being in God's family is "not our own doing, but the gift of God"

So while faith - by itself - is not the gift in question, neither is salvation, or grace. And while faith is not the gift itself in question, however it is part of the "complete package" that is the gift.

The bottom line is not even our faith is self-wrought, but comes to us from God, as the entire salvation process is "not our doing, but the gift of God"

3rdHeaven · Jan 10, 2012

Skala said:
Hi brother. I have studied this in the past and would be honored to take up the challenge of explaining my understanding.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Four words are highlighted here. The pronoun "this" is the word in question. What is the "this" that is being referred to? Is it referring to one of the three words (grace, salvation, faith)?

The answer is no, it is not referring to one single word in particular, but rather, it is referring to the collective phrase. Thus, the "gift" that the pronoun "this" is referring to is "being saved by grace through faith". That is the gift. Being saved by grace through faith - all of it - is the singular gift that Paul is talking about.

Why?

The word "this" is a neuter demonstrative pronoun. Neuter meaning it has no gender (In Greek words have genders, such as female or male). Rules of Greek grammar say that a pronoun must match its antecedents in both number (singular, plural) and gender. (male/female). The antecedents in this case being grace, salvation, and faith.

In this case, the number is not matched, nor is the gender. The gender of the antecedents are grace (female), salvation (male), and faith (female).

Since the pronoun does not match any of the antecedents, it cannot thus be referring to any of them.

The idea here is that the Apostle Paul was not pointing to any single one of them in particular, but rather, he was referring to the collective phrase. Hence his choice of that particular pronoun.

That is, our entire status of being in God's family is "not our own doing, but the gift of God"

So while faith - by itself - is not the gift in question, neither is salvation, or grace. And while faith is not the gift itself in question, however it is part of the "complete package" that is the gift.

The bottom line is not even our faith is self-wrought, but comes to us from God, as the entire salvation process is "not our doing, but the gift of God"

This is a good break down of the verse and I have another break down I will post later, I am getting ready to go to work now. But real quick here is another problem if faith is a gift or part of the gift,

If faith is a gift it would imply men no longer bear the responsibility to believe the Gospel?

For that reason a measure of faith is required from the person to turn to God, this measure of faith is sufficient to obtain God's Mercy and Grace which He will provide His Holy Spirit to further increase your faith to a degree not possible on your own.

With that view, then man would bear responsibility to believe the Gospel.

I will provide another in depth break down of this verse later I promise!

Skala · Jan 10, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
This is a good break down of the verse and I have another break down I will post later, I am getting ready to go to work now. But real quick here is another problem if faith is a gift or part of the gift,

If faith is a gift it would imply men no longer bear the responsibility to believe the Gospel?

For that reason a measure of faith is required from the person to turn to God, this measure of faith is sufficient to obtain God's Mercy and Grace which He will provide His Holy Spirit to further increase your faith to a degree not possible on your own.

With that view, then man would bear responsibility to believe the Gospel.

I will provide another in depth break down of this verse later I promise!

There's no real problem brother. I can think of two reasons/responses to your argument so far.

1) the lack of faith, hereafter called unbelief, is not a passive, non-action by sinners. It is outright rebellion against God. It is active disbelief.

2) Unbelief on the sinner's part is not primarily due to God's refusal to give them faith. First and foremost it is their own fault, as they are sinners and what they desire is to "disbelieve" and rebel.

It seems that you think it is some sort of injustice to demand something yet not grant the ability to do it.

But this is problematic for your view brother. We are commanded to obey God's law, yet Rom 8:8 is clear that in and of ourselves we cannot obey it. (only when one is regenerate and has the indwelling spirit can he obey it, according to the following verses). By your reasoning, God is unjust for demanding what cannot be done.

God granting the ability to obey (and believe) is a form of mercy and grace. by definition those words mean "not obligatory, freely given". To impose an obligation on God - that God must grant all men faith in order to command faith - is to make the grace in giving faith no longer grace. But instead it becomes obligatory.

In other words, you said we would not bear the responsibility to believe the gospel if faith was a gift. By extension, with the same reasoning, we would also not bear the responsibility to obey God's law unless we were able to do it in and of ourselves.

That God must grant the ability to believe does not mean that we are not held accountable for doing it, anymore than we are not held accountable to God's law since God must enable us to obey it, by grace.

That being said none of this has anything to do with changing the meaning of Eph 2. Whatever it says remains true. And grammatically, it cannot mean anything else. The grammar is untouchable. Greek pronouns, if not matched with their antecedents, are referring to the collective phrase.

And, the Bible is clear that faith, too, is a gift.

2 Chronicles 30:11-12 - the men obeyed the command to repent because God gave them a heart to do it
Phil 1:29 - It is granted to us (given to us) belief in Christ
2 Tim 2:25 - God is who gives repentance
Acts 13:48 - we believe on account of being ordained to eternal life (not vice versa)
Rom 9:15-18 - He has mercy on whom He wills, and hardens whom He wills
1 John 5:1 - we believe on account of being born again
Heb 12:2 - Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith
2 Thess 2:13 - we are chosen to salvation through means of belief in the truth
1 Pet 1:3 - we are born again in order to believe in Jesus (unto a lively hope..(trust in Christ))
Rom 8:29-30 - we are called and justified on account of being foreknown and predestined, not vice versa (to be justified requires faith)

3rdHeaven · Jan 10, 2012

Skala said:
There's no real problem brother. I can think of two reasons/responses to your argument so far.

1) the lack of faith, hereafter called unbelief, is not a passive, non-action by sinners. It is outright rebellion against God. It is active disbelief.

2) Unbelief on the sinner's part is not primarily due to God's refusal to give them faith. First and foremost it is their own fault, as they are sinners and what they desire is to "disbelieve" and rebel.

It seems that you think it is some sort of injustice to demand something yet not grant the ability to do it.

But this is problematic for your view brother. We are commanded to obey God's law, yet Rom 8:8 is clear that in and of ourselves we cannot obey it. (only when one is regenerate and has the indwelling spirit can he obey it, according to the following verses). By your reasoning, God is unjust for demanding what cannot be done.

God granting the ability to obey (and believe) is a form of mercy and grace. by definition those words mean "not obligatory, freely given". To impose an obligation on God - that God must grant all men faith in order to command faith - is to make the grace in giving faith no longer grace. But instead it becomes obligatory.

That being said none of this has anything to do with changing the meaning of Eph 2. Whatever it says remains true. And grammatically, it cannot mean anything else. The grammar is untouchable. Greek pronouns, if not matched with their antecedents, are referring to the collective phrase.

And, the Bible is clear that faith, too, is a gift.

2 Chronicles 30:11-12 - the men obeyed the command to repent because God gave them a heart to do it
Phil 1:29 - It is granted to us (given to us) belief in Christ
2 Tim 2:25 - God is who gives repentance
Acts 13:48 - we believe on account of being ordained to eternal life (not vice versa)
Rom 9:15-18 - He has mercy on whom He wills, and hardens whom He wills
1 John 5:1 - we believe on account of being born again
Heb 12:2 - Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith
2 Thess 2:13 - we are chosen to salvation through means of belief in the truth
1 Pet 1:3 - we are born again in order to believe in Jesus (unto a lively hope..(trust in Christ))
Rom 8:29-30 - we are called and justified on account of being foreknown and predestined, not vice versa (to be justified requires faith)

Your gonna make me late for work, I hope you know

I was not addressing their unbelief, there is no argument some will reject God! I was referring to those who do turn to God but have not enough faith to fully accept the Gospel. By the very act of turning to God, which is a measure of faith, not really saving faith as you assign it, but enough to seek God. Any one who seeks God will be received by God, He turns no one away and by His Grace and Mercy proceed to send His Holy Spirit to give us more faith that we definitely would not be able to achieve on our own.

So you see by a measure of faith, what little it may be on our part, is sufficient to at least seek God and want MORE! This is what i was referring to, not the unbelievers or those who flatly reject God. They to had sufficient faith to turn to God if they wanted to, but chose not too.

More later! I really need to go now!

DeaconDean · Jan 11, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
Your gonna make me late for work, I hope you know

I was not addressing their unbelief, there is no argument some will reject God! I was referring to those who do turn to God but have not enough faith to fully accept the Gospel. By the very act of turning to God, which is a measure of faith, not really saving faith as you assign it, but enough to seek God. Any one who seeks God will be received by God, He turns no one away and by His Grace and Mercy proceed to send His Holy Spirit to give us more faith that we definitely would not be able to achieve on our own.

So you see by a measure of faith, what little it may be on our part, is sufficient to at least seek God and want MORE! This is what i was referring to, not the unbelievers or those who flatly reject God. They to had sufficient faith to turn to God if they wanted to, but chose not too.

More later! I really need to go now!

Arthur W. Pink addresses this well.

There are essentially two kinds of faith.

Those who have some faith, but not saving faith.

Another most solemn example of those having faith, but not a saving one, is seen in the stony-ground hearers, of whom Christ said, "which for a while believe"(Luke 8:13). Concerning this class the Lord declared that they hear the Word and "with joy receiveth it" (Matt. 13:20). How many such have we met and known: happy souls with radiant faces, exuberant spirits, full of zeal that others too may enter into the bliss which they have found. How difficult it is to distinguish such from genuine Christiansthe good-ground hearers. The difference is not apparent; no, it lies beneath the surfacethey have "not root in themselves" (Matt. 13:21): deep digging has to be done to discover this fact! Have you searched yourself narrowly, my reader, to ascertain whether or no "the root of the matter" (Job 19:28) be in you?

But let us refer now to another case which seems still more incredible. There are those who are willing to take Christ as their Saviour, yet who are most reluctant to submit to Him as their Lord, to be at His command, to be governed by His laws. Yet there are some unregenerate persons who acknowledge Christ as their Lord. Here is the Scripture proof of our assertion: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? and then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7:22-23). There is a large class ("many") who profess subjection to Christ as Lord, and who do many mighty works in His name: thus a people who can even show you their faith by their works, and yet it is not a saving one!

It is impossible to say how far a non-saving faith may go, and how very closely it may resemble that faith which is saving. Saving faith has Christ for its object; so has a non-saving faith (John 2:23, 24). Saving faith is wrought by the Holy Spirit; so is a non-saving faith (Heb. 6:4). Saving faith is produced by the Word of God; so also is a non-saving faith (Matt. 13:20, 21). Saving faith will make a man prepare for the coming of the Lord, so also will a non-saving: of both the foolish and wise virgins it is written, "then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps" (Matt. 25:7). Saving faith is accompanied with joy: so also is a non-saving faith (Matt. 13:20).

Studies on Saving Faith-1. Its Counterfeits

And those who have saving faith:

No one can read the New Testament attentively without discovering that there is a "believing" in Christ which does not save. In John 8:30, we are told, "As He spake these words, many believed on Him." Mark carefully, it is not said many believe in Him," but "many believed on Him." Nevertheless one does not have to read much farther on in the chapter to discover that those very people were unregenerate and unsaved souls. In verse 44 we find the Lord telling these very "believers" that they were of their father the Devil; and in verse 59 we find them taking up stones to cast at Him. This has presented a difficulty unto some; yet it ought not. They created their own difficulty, by supposing that all faith in Christ necessarily saves. It does not. There is a faith in Christ which saves, and there is also a faith in Christ which does not save.

Saving faith, then, is the opposite of damning belief. Both issue from the heart that is alienated from God, which is in a state of rebellion against Him; saving faith from a heart which is reconciled to Him and so has ceased to fight against Him. Thus an essential element or ingredient in saving faith is a yielding to the authority of God, a submitting of myself to His rule. It is very much more than my understanding assenting and my will consenting to the fact that Christ is a Saviour for sinners, and that He stands ready to receive all who trust Him. To be received by Christ I must not only come to Him renouncing all my own righteousness (Romans 10:3), as an empty-handed beggar (Matt. 19:21), but I must also forsake my self-will and rebellion against Him (Psalm 12:11, 12; Prov. 28:13). Should an insurrectionist and seditionist come to an earthly king seeking his sovereign favour and pardon, then, obviously, the very law of his coming to him for forgiveness requires that he should come on his knees, laying aside his hostility. So it is with a sinner who really comes savingly to Christ for pardon; it is against the law of faith to do otherwise.

Saving faith is a genuine coming to Christ (Matt. 11:28;John 6:37, etc.). But let us take care that we do not miss the clear and inevitable implication of this term. If I say "I come to the U.S.A." then I necessarily indicate that I left some other country to get here. Thus it is in "coming" to Christ; something has to be left. Coming to Christ not only involves the abandoning of every false object of confidence, it also includes and entails the forsaking of all other competitors for my heart. "For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls (1 Peter 2:25). And what is meant by "ye were [note the past tensethey are no longer doing so] as sheep going astray"? Isaiah 53:6, tells us: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to His own way." Ah, that is what must be forsaken before we can truly "come" to Christthat course of self-will must be abandoned. The prodigal son could not come to his Father while he remained in the far country. Dear reader, if you are still following a course of self-pleasing, you are only deceiving yourself if you think you have come to Christ.

Saving faith is a believing on Christ with the heart: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" (Romans 10:9, 10). There is no such thing as a saving faith in Christ where there is no real love for Him, and by "real love" we mean a love which is evidenced by obedience. Christ acknowledges none to be His friends save those who do whatsoever He commands them (John 15:14). As unbelief is a species of rebellion, so saving faith is a complete subjection to God: Hence we read of "the obedience of faith" (Romans 16:26). Saving faith is to the soul what health is to the body: it is a mighty principle of operation, full of life, ever working, bringing forth fruit after its own kind.

Studies on Saving Faith-2. Its Nature

And every bit of the above, is a work done in us, for us, by the Holy Spirit.

God Bless

Till all are one.

3rdHeaven · Jan 11, 2012

Any one here of a person named Campton?

I heard him on the radio the other day, he is a Calvinist and was speaking about this very subject, taking questions on the air.

Basically he holds pretty much what you folks are saying except he seems to acknowledge that since we can not know who is called or elect, it is reasonable to seek out the Lord and pray for Mercy. In theory he was basically saying if you can do that then you should be elect. But he seemed to acknowledge there are two kinds of faith at work, which to me also seems to acknowledge free will at work too. Any thoughts on that?

Hismessenger · Jan 11, 2012

Too many believe that a work has to be a physical thing which can be seen by man. While the last part of this sentence is true, it does not pretain to physical things like going to a place of fellowship or giving a tithe or even helping your neighbor which others can readily see. The work of Faith is to believe in your heart, unseen by others, but by God and to stand on God's word which will be seen of men but without their understanding of why. The work of faith is to believe and trust in God, no matter what the situation may look like. It is something which God gives us, measure by measure as we watch the fulfillment of his word come to pass in our lives and each time it does, the next time trouble comes to your door, you will not be so quick to dispair, looking for the fulfillment of God's word building your faith to a saving faith.

hismessenger

Skala · Jan 11, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
Any one here of a person named Campton?

I heard him on the radio the other day, he is a Calvinist and was speaking about this very subject, taking questions on the air.

Basically he holds pretty much what you folks are saying except he seems to acknowledge that since we can not know who is called or elect, it is reasonable to seek out the Lord and pray for Mercy. In theory he was basically saying if you can do that then you should be elect. But he seemed to acknowledge there are two kinds of faith at work, which to me also seems to acknowledge free will at work too. Any thoughts on that?

Regarding the bolded part...

What makes you think Camptons attitude on this matter is different than any other Calvinists? No Calvinist that I know of has ever claimed to know who the elect are lol. We preach the gospel to all, knowing that God will work through our efforts to bring His own people into a saving knowledge of the truth.

We plant the seed, but God gives the increase.

bling · Jan 11, 2012

nobdysfool said:
Trust in self is not a godly faith, and cannot save anyone. As for whether animals have this kind of faith, i think the jury is out on that one. Animals certainly have confidence in what they naturally do. Confidence would be another synonym for faith, if we're talking broad definitions.

However, saving faith is not a naturally-occuring response in the natural man (meaning the unsaved, unregenerate man). Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes by the Word of God. What kind of faith? Saving faith. Not ordinary "I believe the sun rises in the east, and gravity keeps me on the ground" kind of natural faith/confidence/trust in natural things, that which can be seen, touched and felt. The Gospel is supernatural in its content. The natural man cannot receive it, or understand it. God must open the heart, regenerate the man, in order for the gospel to do its work, that of causing saving faith to flow into the heart, and flow out in belief to God.

“Trust” is the “faith” I am talking about and God would be the source to all mature adult humans of trust. There are many qualities of man that God has given us that make us in God’s image and different from animals.

What saves a person is when that mature adult person “trust” (faith) a benevolent Creator enough to humbly accept His help (forgiveness) as pure charity. That trust in a benevolent Creator comes from opening up one’s eyes to God’s spoken word around him (all God spoke into existence) and/or God living through Christians and/or the Bible.

Why did Paul say that? Because it is impossible to earn salvation. God has specifically set it up this way, so that he alone receives the Glory and credit for any man's salvation. It specifically removes any basis to boast on man's part, because if he is honest, he knows that saving faith did not come from himself, it came from God.

]How can anyone “boast” about humbly accepting God’s Charity?
Would there not be more room to “boast” if you did not have to swallow your pride and were just born into a wealthy family?

Then Paul lied when he said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That clearly states that saving faith does not come from within ourselves, it comes from God via His Word, when received in a heart opened by God to hear and understand that Word.

Paul is not talking about the natural “trust” instinctive to all mature adults, but the method for saving faith to come about. Who is doing the hearing and who is responsible for listening? Paul and Christ did not say “Saving faith is planted in you”, but says listen/ come to your senses (our responsibility) and allow this word to turn generate saving faith in you.

No, you're not right on that.

What is it? (physical)

No matter how many times you try to say it, and try to make it sound right, you miss the fact that you are claiming that man's own faith is enough to save him, thereby ignoring scriptures that specifically show that man does not have it within himself, by himself, to exercise that kind of faith, the kind of faith that brings salvation. Man just does not have that ability. Part of the problem is that we have one or two words that encompass far too much in their definition; Faith, and Trust. God must impart saving faith to the man for the man to then believe and receive salvation. Salvation is all of God, none of man. Any system that gives man even a smidgeon of contribution to the actual saving of himself is unscriptural. Man is totally and completely at God's mercy, unable to in any way save himself, or entice God to save him. We cannot even take our next breath unless God allows it.

The “father” is not shown “inplanting some thing in the prodigal son that changed him”. The prodigal son did nothing “worthy” of anything and all the glory goes to the Father.

It would not be Loving on God’s part to be unfair/unjust and “impart” only to some people “saving faith” and not impart it to others for no logical reason.

bling · Jan 11, 2012

Skala said:
So while faith - by itself - is not the gift in question, neither is salvation, or grace. And while faith is not the gift itself in question, however it is part of the "complete package" that is the gift.

The bottom line is not even our faith is self-wrought, but comes to us from God, as the entire salvation process is "not our doing, but the gift of God"

You do a good job up to your conclusion.

There is no and between the words. The word faith is used to describe the salvation and it is not a salvation that does not include our faith.

GodsDaughter1981 · Jan 11, 2012

3rdHeaven said:
I would be interested in learning what verses you would use to support that faith is a gift, which would imply it is transmitted (given) to man from God.

Ooo, good question!

My tuppence worth: I had two verses screaming in my head as I read the thread title:

- Romans 12:3 - Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

To me, this is saying that God has given each of us the capacity to have faith in Him, and it's what we then do with it that counts. So the faith itself is a gift from God, and I guess it follows (I'm still working this out in my head so bear with me) that it can increase the more fruitfully we use it, or decrease and die off if we ignore it or turn away from it. Think of a kid being given cress seeds. If he leaves them in his schoolbag and forgets about them, they die. If he plants them and waters them, they grow. And now I want an egg'n'cress sandwich

- Philippians 2:12 - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling

Now, before I go any further, I'm not about to claim Paul is saying "work FOR your salvation", since salvation cannot be earned. I think what he is saying here is that by using our faith (the gift given to us) we can grow as Christians, develop our own ministries, lead others to Christ etc etc. That's where the "work" bit would seem to kick in, since all of the above take some degree of effort and sacrifice on our part.

Like I say, though, that's just my interpretation - I could be getting this all wrong. I hope it makes sense, though!

GD

Skala · Jan 11, 2012

GodsDaughter1981 said:
Ooo, good question!

My tuppence worth: I had two verses screaming in my head as I read the thread title:

To me, this is saying that God has given each of us the capacity to have faith in Him, and it's what we then do with it that counts. So the faith itself is a gift from God, and I guess it follows (I'm still working this out in my head so bear with me) that it can increase the more fruitfully we use it, or decrease and die off if we ignore it or turn away from it. Think of a kid being given cress seeds. If he leaves them in his schoolbag and forgets about them, they die. If he plants them and waters them, they grow. And now I want an egg'n'cress sandwich

Now, before I go any further, I'm not about to claim Paul is saying "work FOR your salvation", since salvation cannot be earned. I think what he is saying here is that by using our faith (the gift given to us) we can grow as Christians, develop our own ministries, lead others to Christ etc etc. That's where the "work" bit would seem to kick in, since all of the above take some degree of effort and sacrifice on our part.

Like I say, though, that's just my interpretation - I could be getting this all wrong. I hope it makes sense, though!

GD

Sister, I think you hit the nail on the head with Romans 12:3. You are right, Paul is speaking to believers and has told them that God has given them the faith that they have.

I also think Ph 2:12-13 when taken together do apply to this conversion. Notice what verse 13 says:

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

God is working in us and through us to accomplish what he wants us to accomplish. God is working in us so that we will and act in ways that fulfill His purpose. So we can safely say that everything a Christian wills and acts - and our personal decision to put our faith/belief in Christ would be included in what we will and act - is because of God's work in us.

Is Faith A Gift Or A Work?

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