debate cessationism with me

Apologist · Jan 23, 2003

Originally posted by Andrew
Why in the world wld Christ take on our pains and sicknesses if God wanted some of us sick (Isa 53:4)??

This is a misinterpretation on the part of WoF theology.
Isaiah is talking about spiritual healing, not physical if you read it in context.

Why in the world wld God annoint Jesus to heal the sick if it was also God's will for people to be sick?? Why in the world did Jesus heal all the sick who came to him in faith if it was God's will to make some sick?

Jesus' healing ministry was to prove who He was, it was not a blueprint for us to follow. I think we may have a misunderstanding of the word 'will' here. What God *allows* to happen for His own purposes and what His *will* is are two different things. Yes it is God's will that we all are healthy, etc. but that will be actualized in the new Heaven and new Earth, not here and now. The creation is still cursed and so the results are still evident of that curse which include disease, and death.

Why is the world is one of God's redemptive names I AM THE LORD THAT HEALETH THEE when he is supposed to be I am the Lord who makes you sick at the same time???

That title is showing God's sovereignty. He alone does healing not anyone else.

God told Moses in Exodus 4:10-11:

Then Moses said to the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.
11 So the Lord said to him, Who has made mans mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?

If God want us all healed why does He create some deaf? Or blind?

Andrew · Jan 24, 2003

Isaiah is talking about spiritual healing, not physical if you read it in context.

It is you who shld check the context. It is physical healing, not spiritual healing!

Isaiah 53:4,5
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs [sicknesses], and carried our sorrows [pains]: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

The original Hebrew words for "griefs" and "sorrows" are actually "sicknesses" and "pains" (physical and mental) respectively (see Strong's numbers 02483 and 04341). The translation is thus unfortunate. ask any Hebrew scholar or Messianic Jew.

Some have insisted that Isaiah 53:4 has to do with spiritual healing only. But let the Bible interpret the Bible. The verses are quoted again in Matthew 8:17 and 1 Peter 2:24. How does the Holy Spirit translate Isaiah 53:4 in Matthew 8:15? He says, "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses", implying physical healing.

* Matthew 8:15-17
15 And he touched her hand, and the fever left her: and she arose, and ministered unto them.
16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Moreover, the immediate context of Matthew 8:17 (verses 15 and 16) proves that the verse is referring to physical healing. This is not to say that spiritual healing is excluded as demons were cast out too.

Jesus' healing ministry was to prove who He was, it was not a blueprint for us to follow.

Good Lord, you dont follow Christ? Why be Christ-ian then? I guess you dont go around sharing the Gospel either or helping the poor. Jesus said Greater works than these shall you do. Jesus is the exact image of God. You want to know what God is like, look at Jesus! Jesus himself said he who has seen me has seen the Father. I am in He and He in Me. etc etc. So if one facet of the Father is to put sickness on his children, then Jesus really missed out on that by not reflecting that in his earthly ministry!

Yes it is God's will that we all are healthy, etc. but that will be actualized in the new Heaven and new Earth, not here and now.

Hello, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven! Jesus came to give us abundant life not an abundant after life. btw pls provide scriptures for your theology.

Is this suppose ot happen on earth or in heaven? of cse on earth!

Ex 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
Deu 28: 9 And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:

btw: why wld anyone need healing or prosperity blessings in heaven?? We have new imperishable bodies and walk on streets of gold.

That title is showing God's sovereignty. He alone does healing not anyone else.

excuse me, the church is the arm of God. God's not sending another Jesus to come heal the sick for you. He told the church to go preach the Gospel to the ends of the earth, to lay hands on the sick etc. The title has nothing to do with God's sovereignity. dont read something that's not there into it. It simply and clearly says I am the Lord the Heals You. You either humbly accept that or reject it!

hawk · Jan 24, 2003

Andrew is doing a great job defending some misconceptions about miraculous gifts and healing, I just want to comment on one thing that was said.

 

To prophecy IS to preach

The difference between preaching and prophecy is clear from the New Testament.  Preaching is expounding upon, clarifying, and applying previous revelation; prophecy is declaring a present revelation.  Note that Paul is careful to make a distinction between teaching and prophecy.

Ephesians 4
11   And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets , and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers ,

Romans 12
6   Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy , according to the proportion of his faith;
7   if service, in his serving; or he who teaches , in his teaching;

Here are some texts that show what the gift of prophecy looks like in the New Testament.

I Corinthians 14:
24   But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25   the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.

. . .

29   Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.
30   But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
31   For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;

. . .

10   As we were staying there for some days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea.
11   And coming to us, he took Paul's belt and bound his own feet and hands, and said, "This is what the Holy Spirit says: 'In this way the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.'"

Is this what the typical protestant sermon looks like?!?

Prophecy and teaching are both very important but they are not the same.

SpiritPsalmist · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by Br. Max
quaffer: Yes God can and will heal, but let us not forget that suffering is not only good for the soul, but profitable to the spirit Some times God does not heal. He does so for His own reasons. At times, he wants us to seek Him more, at other times he is waiting for the proper moment, still other times, he does not heal because the affliction is working to his glory. I have seen people destroyed because some word of faith healer told them that they did not have enough faith to get healed.

Bro Max,

I personally did not have enough faith to see the manifestation of the healing I believe I had.  I personally, had the choice to either let that knowledge of lack of faith destroy me or spur me on to pull myself up out of my self-pity party and do what I had to do in the natural.  Then, continue to walk in the way that I believe God says and let God work on my faith.

I can make faith-based decisions only on what "I" believe.  NOT, what someone else believes.  If my faith is not strong enough then I might as well admit it and just do what I need to do to help it grow.

I have been to the meetings of some of the WOF teachers criticized and have not heard one of them tell anyone to stop taking their medicine.  I have, however, heard the very opposite.  I heard them say, "go to your dr and get your healing verified before you stop taking your medicine".  

I had many people lay hands on me and pray for healing.  I believe the Word of God, says I am/was healed by His stripes.  But somewhere in me, there was doubt.  I was overcome by what was happening physically, and that was pretty much all I could see. 

Yes, I beat myself up for awhile, but it was my decision to beat myself up.  I felt that I was a dissappointment to my church and my Pastors.  But they were not the one's who told me that lie.  The enemy was the one who told me that lie.  And I chose to believe it.

Finely, I came to my senses, repented for listening to the devil and got back on track.  I did what I had to do in the natural and I'm continuing to do what I have to do in the spiritual.

I still have other medical issues.  I believe, according to the Word of God, I am totally healed.  I still take medicine because according to the doctors reports (and she believes healing is for today too) my body has not yet manifested that healing.  And that's OK. 

Just because I don't see the manifestation does not mean that God is not willing.  Yes, it will happen in His time. But in the meantime, I still believe I am healed.  He said so.

If we were never sick, we would never know healing.  If we never knew poverty, we would never know plenty.  Paul claimed he had lived in poverty and plenty.

I, like Andrew, do not consider myself to be WOF but my church does teach some of the things they teach.  I don't believe it just because they teach it.  I believe it, because I've been convinced, by reading the Word for myself and seeing the operation of it in others and in my life.

 

SUNSTONE · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by Apologist

God told Moses in Exodus 4:10-11:

Then Moses said to the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant; but I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.
11 So the Lord said to him, Who has made mans mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?

If God want us all healed why does He create some deaf? Or blind?

The answer to that last question, came from Jesus. People asked Him, what sin did the crippled man do, or what sin did his parents do, to make him crippled(I think it was a crippled person)? Jesus said it was neither, but he was made like that so that God would be glorified through healing him. Now I looked for the verse but couldn't find it, some help please. :help:

Lazerus also was sick and Jesus said, he is sick not unto death, but so that God will be glorified through the Son. (not exact words).

1. What is the gift of healing?

2. What is the gift of miracles?

Mark 16:18   "...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

 

dignitized · Jan 24, 2003

Lets not forget that Moses was a stutterer-erer

and God never took that from him. When I was a child I stuttered but now I do not - Moses never stopped. It kept him humble. Often times we are afflicted for our souls sakes.

Not all afflictions are ones we need to be heal of or that God will heal us of.

SpiritPsalmist · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by Br. Max
Lets not forget that Moses was a stutterer-erer and God never took that from him. When I was a child I stuttered but now I do not - Moses never stopped. It kept him humble. Often times we are afflicted for our souls sakes. Not all afflictions are ones we need to be heal of or that God will heal us of.

Where does it say he NEVER stopped?  There are many verses of him speaking quite eloquently. 

dignitized · Jan 24, 2003

quaffer? There are verses which record his words quite eliquently - a big difference.

I do believe that Scripture states that Arron often spoke for moses to the people - Perhaps thats what you are thinking of.

I know of no evidence which claims he stopped. :shrug: I believe that Jewish tradition maintians that he did not.

God bless

Andrew · Jan 24, 2003

Lets not forget that Moses was a stutterer-erer and God never took that from him. When I was a child I stuttered but now I do not - Moses never stopped. It kept him humble. Often times we are afflicted for our souls sakes. Not all afflictions are ones we need to be heal of or that God will heal us of.

that is simply using experiences to build a doctrine and talking as if Jesus did not die and rise again.

so since the King Paul preached to rejected the Gospel, do we then conclude God wants some to go to hell??

JUST BECOS WE SEE SOMEONE SICK OR DYING WHETHER IN THE BIBLE OR IN YOUR SURROUNDING DOES NOT NEGATE THE TRUTH THAT GOD WANTS US HEALTHY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, THAT JESUS ALSO BORE OUR SICKNESSES AND PAINS (BESIDES OUR SINS) ON THE CROSS.

We do not throw away the Gospel and start telling people that God wants some people to go to hell or remain condemned simply becos we dont see all sinners being saved at a gospel rally.

Apologist · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by Andrew
It is you who shld check the context. It is physical healing, not spiritual healing!

Isaiah 53:4,5
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs [sicknesses], and carried our sorrows [pains]: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

You are correct, verse 4 is talking about physical healing, verse 5 is talkng about spiritual healing.

Christ's atonement made provision for healing but it is not guaranteed.

Good Lord, you dont follow Christ? Why be Christ-ian then? I guess you dont go around sharing the Gospel either or helping the poor. Jesus said Greater works than these shall you do. Jesus is the exact image of God. You want to know what God is like, look at Jesus! Jesus himself said he who has seen me has seen the Father. I am in He and He in Me. etc etc. So if one facet of the Father is to put sickness on his children, then Jesus really missed out on that by not reflecting that in his earthly ministry!

Of course I believe in sharing the gospel and helping the poor.

When Jesus said we would do "greater works" I believe he was talking about preaching the gospel not healings.

Jesus is the exact image of God. You want to know what God is like, look at Jesus! Jesus himself said he who has seen me has seen the Father. I am in He and He in Me. etc etc. So if one facet of the Father is to put sickness on his children, then Jesus really missed out on that by not reflecting that in his earthly ministry!

Yes, Jesus is God I agree, but I did not say that God "put" sickness on his children. I said He allows it.

Hello, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven! Jesus came to give us abundant life not an abundant after life. btw pls provide scriptures for your theology.

That is a nice example of biblical eisegesis. Where do you find in the Lord's prayer that we should all be healed?
What is abundant life? The bible does not promise healing in any way, shape or form.

Ex 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

Why do you quote old testament scriptures to back up your claims?
These are promises to Israel under a theocracy and are not guaranteed to us also.

btw: why wld anyone need healing or prosperity blessings in heaven?? We have new imperishable bodies and walk on streets of gold.

I did not say we would need healing or prosperity in heaven, I said that the promises God has made about these things will be actualized in the next life.

If we have healings promised here and now then why do faith teachers wear glasses, have toupee's and have false teeth? Let's be realistic here.

Apologist · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
The answer to that last question, came from Jesus. People asked Him, what sin did the crippled man do, or what sin did his parents do, to make him crippled(I think it was a crippled person)? Jesus said it was neither, but he was made like that so that God would be glorified through healing him. Now I looked for the verse but couldn't find it, some help please.

That is bad biblical interpretation. The disciples thought that a sin caused this person to be born blind and Jesus was correcting them.
Jesus did not say that people are born this way so that God can heal them all.

Apologist · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by Andrew

JUST BECOS WE SEE SOMEONE SICK OR DYING WHETHER IN THE BIBLE OR IN YOUR SURROUNDING DOES NOT NEGATE THE TRUTH THAT GOD WANTS US HEALTHY AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, THAT JESUS ALSO BORE OUR SICKNESSES AND PAINS (BESIDES OUR SINS) ON THE CROSS.

[/B]

I agree that God wants us healthy IF that is His purpose.

We need to understand that God allows afflictions of differing kinds to come into our lives to mold us. We are molded in the cauldron of adversity, not in the abundance of prosperity!

sbbqb7n16 · Jan 24, 2003

Moses a stutterer-- God wanted to heal that, but Moses wouldn't let Him, God wouldn't force good speech patterns (or healing) on anyone...

See Exodus 4:12-13
"Now go; I will help you speak and will teach you what to say." But Moses said, "O Lord, please send someone else to do it."

We can do any miraculous gift that Jesus did, including heal people... provided we have faith that HE is able to do it...

-See John 14:12
"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."
-and Matthew 9:22
"'Take heart daughter,' he said 'your faith has healed you.'"

God wants us to be healed physically and spiritually...

See 3 John 2
"Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well."

HOWEVER

All this should be done for the glory of God, not for the selfish desires of the believer...

See John 7:18
"He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him."

Those are my thoughts on the matters brought up here.... and about the dude that Paul left there sick... maybe that guy just didn't have enough faith? We don't know why, but we can't disclaim everyone from recieving healing just because one man was left by Paul sick somewhere. God gave Paul a reason for why the thorn was left in his side... maybe God gave that guy a reason? We don't know. But anything we say on the situation is just more arguing... so TRUST GOD! and Have a great day!

Andrew · Jan 24, 2003

I agree that God wants us healthy IF that is His purpose.

Apologist, you still dont get it. His purpose or will regarding health and healing or even prosperity is already revealed in his Word. He has already stated in his Word clearly what His will is regarding healing and prosperity. That is what I'm trying to tell you.

Once that is settled in our hearts, then there is no longer the question of whether it is his will to heal or not in a particular case. God has made his will known and he is no respector of persons. There are no more IFs.

again your statement is like: "I agree that God wants us saved IF that is His purpose."

you see the sin issue and salvation for mankind settled forever at the cross and you read of it in the Word.

healing evangelists see the sickness issue and healing for mankind settled forever at the cross and read of it in the Word.

Apologist · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by sbbqb7n16

We can do any miraculous gift that Jesus did, including heal people... provided we have faith that HE is able to do it...

Do you really believe that? Jesus raised people from the dead, gave the blind sight and restored severed limbs.

Can you name one documented case of this happening in our time?

.... and about the dude that Paul left there sick... maybe that guy just didn't have enough faith?

This is what faith teachers say all the time and it is absolutely false.

Jesus said that even the faith of a mustard seed can accomplish great things, so having even the slightest amount of faith should heal someone easily.

Andrew · Jan 24, 2003

Do you really believe that? Jesus raised people from the dead, gave the blind sight and restored severed limbs.Can you name one documented case of this happening in our time?

I can point you to numerous books/VCDs with documented accounts of such miracles. but my concern is that you will simply brush them off as hoaxes, scams etc, without even wanting to read those books/accounts first.

people in this forum have even given their testimonies of healings, but i'm afraid you'll just brush them off as liars or con artists.

Apologist · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by Andrew
Apologist, you still dont get it. His purpose or will regarding health and healing or even prosperity is already revealed in his Word. He has already stated in his Word clearly what His will is regarding healing and prosperity. That is what I'm trying to tell you.

Then why are people with great faith still in wheelchairs?

Why are there people of great faith that are still blind?

Why do we still die?

And don't tell me it's because we don't have enough faith as that is totally untrue.

Andrew · Jan 24, 2003

again, you are going by experiences. You are letting what you SEE in the natural interpret scripture for you.

Apoloigist, I'll answer your question if you can tell me why there are people who are still not saved, or Christians who go around sin conscious.

Apologist · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by Andrew
I can point you to numerous books/VCDs with documented accounts of such miracles. but my concern is that you will simply brush them off as hoaxes, scams etc, without even wanting to read those books/accounts first.

people in this forum have even given their testimonies of healings, but i'm afraid you'll just brush them off as liars or con artists.

Well, CRI has been looking for factual evidences like this for years.

Maybe they should be told.

Benny Hinn had supposed facts also but he was shown to be making it up when pressed for documentation.

Apologist · Jan 24, 2003

Originally posted by Andrew
again, you are going by experiences. You are letting what you SEE in the natural interpret scripture for you.

Apoloigist, I'll answer your question if you can tell me why there are people who are still not saved, or Christians who go around sin conscious.

There are people not saved because they love their sin and don't want God. What does that have to do with this?

debate cessationism with me

Are miraculous gifts for today?

Yes miraculous gifts are for the church today

No miraculous gifts ceased at the close of the apostolic age

Maybe miraculous gifts are for today, but only rarely under unusual circumstances

2 Tim. 2:24-26

Well-Known Member

Member

Heavy lean toward Messianic

Christian Warrior

Well-Known Member

Heavy lean toward Messianic

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

2 Tim. 2:24-26

2 Tim. 2:24-26

2 Tim. 2:24-26

Veteran - Blue Bible Dude

Well-Known Member

2 Tim. 2:24-26

Well-Known Member

2 Tim. 2:24-26

Well-Known Member

2 Tim. 2:24-26

2 Tim. 2:24-26

Similar threads