debate cessationism with me

[Andrew]

Interesting theory. I believe they have on both parts. The main issue is tongues, right? Well, they first arose, and happened a few times in history, because of the language barrier. Man, God wanted a person to hear the message THAT bad, that He miraculously made the person speak another language!

its not just abt tongues but the 9 supernatural gifts listed in Cor 13. ie healings, prophecy, working of miracles, faith, discerning of spirits etc.

Since there is virtually no language barrier nowadays, due to having interpreters and trilingual people, I don't think that tongues would be NECESSARY.

that's simply not true becos tongues was never a gift to the church to "overcome language barriers" BTW, its not possible for every Christian to have an interpreter 24/7.

the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still very much alive and in use today. Whether one sees or experiences it has nothing to do with the fact that God's Word says it has not ceased. We dont go by experiences but by the Word of God.

 

[Andrew]

again, GOD caused the diseases to happen.

then you are saying God is the author of chaos or that the Prince of Peace is also the prince of dis-ease. We believe God allows, but does not author it.

God does inflict sickness as a just penatly for sin and allows sickness to forward his greater glory.

No he doesnt. Do you inflict sickness on your child to punish him??? then why accuse God of that? Also, our sins were already punished on the body of Jesus 2000 years ago, so it God still punishes sin in us, then he is not being faithful and just to the finished work of Christ. The same crime cannot be punished twice. Dont forget we are on this side of the cross.

To say that God always heals . . . makes it the fault of the person if they do not get healed. Many tims God does not heal because a physical healing would cause spiritual damage.

cause spiritual damage? that's nonsense! Try telling that to the child or husband who's losing his wife to cancer! They'll have nothing to do with your so-called 'compassionate' God.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
quaffer: again, GOD caused the diseases to happen. God does inflict sickness as a just penatly for sin and allows sickness to forward his greater glory. To say that God always heals . . . makes it the fault of the person if they do not get healed. Many tims God does not heal because a physical healing would cause spiritual damage.

What God did was lay down the way things would work.  If we obey, we are blessed.  If we dissobey, we are cursed.  (Deut 28, the whole chapter.  It's an automatic spiritual reflex.  What we reap, we sow.  Period.

He's the same yesterday, today, and forever.  He cannot deny Himself.  So, IF we become sick as a penalty for sin then it was a choice we made.  God, did not, at that point in time, say, "ut oh, so and so sinned so I must correct them with sickness, etc."  Basically, we could say, so and so had door#1 (blessed) and door#2 (cursed).  They chose door#2, and walked through it on their own 2 feet.

Scripture says, "by His stripes we are (IS 53:5/were (1 Peter 2:24) healed.

We either are and were or are'nt and were not.  Since God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13) and scripture says are and were, then we are and were.  In the Spirit rhelm it's already happened.  We can't change it.

So now, it's a flesh issue.  What in my flesh is keeping my flesh from manifesting the healing that has already happend in the Spirit?  Is it continued sin?  Is it unbelief?  Is it unforgiveness?  Is it poor eating habits?  Sleep habits?  What?

If we are sick due to someone else's sin, let's pick Adam . . .we're all fallen due to his choice of door#2.  We still are and were healed.  We still can be keeping the healing from manifesting in the flesh by sin, unbelief, unforgiveness, etc, etc.

If we get before God and He does not reveal anything in our hearts and or flesh that He needs to work on, then all we can do is trust that the healing will manifest in His time and keep on serving Him to the best of our ability.  If we die before the healing manifests in the flesh then we will definetely see it in Heaven.  But we can at least, choose to go down believing.

Quaffer

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by Quaffer
This is so true.  Some have concluded that since they have not experienced it then it does not happen. 

So technically, by their experience of no experience, no one should have an experience, because that has to mean that something is wrong.  And it could'nt possibly be with them . . .the one's with no experience. 

If the Bible says something is supposed to happen, then it's supposed to happen.  If it doesn't, well, I believe God anyway. 

The Bible says, blessed are those who believe without seeing.  I have seen a lot, but what I have not seen, if the Bible says it, I still choose to believe it.

My grandfather is 94 and still living (on his own with my grandmother I might add).  God has truly blessed them.  He is one of these people you speak of.  He is VERY strong in faith and I have no doubt that they will both be with Christ in eternity.  However, he has this problem (and this goes beyond tongues, healing, etc.) that if he hasn't experienced or witnessed it, it hasn't happened.  This is strange considering his strong faith in what he hasn't witnessed, nevertheless, he was mislead and therefor I pray for who mislead him in this area to the extent it solidified his view.

I too used to be this way and thank God I had my grandfather in my life not only as a great example of how to be a Christian man, but also how to not be as a Christian man.  God bless!

 

[dignitized]

quaffer: and what of the verses where the Lord says what we sow, our fathers have sown? This is not a simple black and white issue. YES GOD HEALS! But if he does not - He has HIM reason.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Br. Max
quaffer: and what of the verses where the Lord says what we sow, our fathers have sown? This is not a simple black and white issue. YES GOD HEALS! But if he does not - He has HIM reason.

Hey Br. Max

I'm not sure of your statement or question

I believe I've covered all the ground.  I believe it is a black and white issue.

Our healing is already done in the Spirit realm, it's the flesh that is the problem.  Some of the flesh issues may be learning how to overcome what the enemy has done to us as a result of the sins of our fathers. 

As a child of God, if we are in complete obedience to God, then we are "free from the curse of the law of sin and death".  The curse of the law of sin and death covered much more than eternity in hell. 

However, if we don't know (in our knower) that there is more to the curse besides eternity in hell, (see Deut 28) then we frequently continue to live as under the curse and believe the lies of the enemy, that we are under the curse.  As a result of that we then reap the effects of a curse we are not even under.

You are correct Br Max.  If healing does not manifest in the flesh, there is a reason.  And it's not because God desires it. 

God will use sickness.  But He does not make His children sick to teach them a lesson.  They are sick, because somewhere along the line, door#2 was chosen. Whether they or their fathers did the choosing.

With repentance and turning from whatever area they are falling short in He uses the sickness to bring glory to Himself.  I believe healing in the flesh is still available but if it does not manifest until I'm in heaven I still choose to believe I'm healed.  Because, by His stripes we are/were healed.

Quaffer

 

[Andrew]

Our healing is already done in the Spirit realm, it's the flesh that is the problem.Ê

amen, and it was done 2000 years ago on the cross.