Issues in Scienceville.

Cabal

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[none of my business] Is that why you left the church? or did you 'have questions that your undershepherd couldn't answer'? [/none of my business]

It was one of the reasons, as was the generally crappy attitude of the church, which is thoroughly unconcerned with living up to its mandate properly. Again, if people like you and the other TRUE CHRISTIANS here are prime examples of God's last great plan before he torches the joint, then he's basically trolling.

You guys have more excuses for leaving your faith, than Carter has liver pills.

And....so what? What does the NUMBER of excuses have to do with anything? They could all be perfectly valid claims, but you wouldn't know that, would you, because you just turn on the sarcasm once asked to confront the reality that people are increasingly viewing your faith as incoherent nonsense.

I don't turn my back on God if I have questions my pastor can't answer; nor do I do it because someone steps on my tootsies, or doesn't treat me like Miss Manners would, or park in 'my parking space', or sit in 'my pew', or fails to shake my hand, or whatever.

Do you question everything (and I mean everything, not the cut-down extraBiblical fine print version where you don't question God, God's existence or your experiences of God), and hold on to the good? I resolved many years ago while I was still a Christian to throw myself at anything and everything that challenged my faith, not dismiss them with sarcasm without countering it. There are people who have been as genuine in their faith as you and have gone on to fall away, and the only thing you can do when confronted with this fact is deny, deny, deny....

I guess I should thank the Bible at least, if it hadn't exhorted me to question everything, I wouldn't have stopped believing in the theological claptrap tacked on to it.
 
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AV1611VET

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It was one of the reasons, as was the generally crappy attitude of the church, which is thoroughly unconcerned with living up to its mandate properly.
Well, I have to admit, you're the first one I've seen that uses two excuses for leaving.

If I want to be held up on a pedestal, I should get back into Chess, eh?

I don't go to church to be entertained, I can come here and do that.

I go to church to worship.
 
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Cabal

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Well, I have to admit, you're the first one I've seen that uses two excuses for leaving.

I have plenty more than that. But if the bulk of the Christians in my life hadn't systematically been sanctimonious fools to me, I'd have been much less likely to question my faith in the first place. Keep the congregation happy and hunky-dory and why would people go a-wandering, hm?

If I want to be held up on a pedestal, I should get back into Chess, eh?

No-one is planning on putting you on a pedestal AV, I can say that with confidence.

I don't go to church to be entertained, I can come here and do that.

Neither did I, so so much for your snark.

I go to church to worship.

As did I. But if you think a church isn't a place for difficult questions, then you're even more clueless about things than I previously gave you credit for.
 
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AV1611VET

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As did I. But if you think a church isn't a place for difficult questions, then you're even more clueless about things than I previously gave you credit for.
I've sat through sermons where my pastor has made outrageous remarks and heard the congregation shout AMEN!

I have questioned my pastor about some things, only to have him dismiss me and walk off.

And my belief that God accepted both Cain & Abel's offering in Genesis 4 drew ridicule from my brothers and sisters; so much so, in fact, that I quit teaching adults.

In short, I didn't leave my church.
 
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Cabal

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I've sat through sermons where my pastor has made outrageous remarks and heard the congregation shout AMEN!

I have questioned my pastor about some things, only to have him dismiss me and walk off.

And my belief that God accepted both Cain & Abel's offering in Genesis 4 drew ridicule from my brothers and sisters; so much so, in fact, that I quit teaching adults.

In short, I didn't leave my church.

What a waste - it seems that your church is another data point proving my overall point.

Again, if this is the best God can do in the face of stakes as high as everyone he (allegedly) loves being set on fire, then he's having a laugh.
 
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Nathan Poe

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God never sold Job out. God knew that Job was a perfect man and was up to the test. In the end Job came out on top with double blessings in his life, just as God had predicted.

In the end, God won the friendly wager he made.

Not the same death we're talking about here and yet, one day even the natural death will end. It's all explained in the Word of God.

"Not the same death," yes, I know, and it's pretty clever, when you think about it. It's a bold sales pitch: Invent a problem, then claim that your product is the only solution.

As for the plain old death, well, good thing you have to die before you can collect -- cuts down on angry customers demanding refunds, doesn't it?

That will end, too. Also, explained in the Bible.

Also, I wish I had a product that everyone bought but nobody used until after they died.

Yes, quite a bit.

And what have you concluded?

You can call it what you want, NP. You presented a couple of thoughts. I answered them best I could.

And while those answers are sufficient for you, I hope you see how they are unconvincing to others.

Because I'm your friend.

You'll have to do better than that. "Friends" can still be wrong, or suspect in their motives.

I've got all of life to go on. Too much meaning there.

Plenty of meaning in my life as well -- if one doesn't find it, one makes it.

You'll see... I did answer it.

So you have. :)
 
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Nathan Poe

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I've sat through sermons where my pastor has made outrageous remarks and heard the congregation shout AMEN!

I have questioned my pastor about some things, only to have him dismiss me and walk off.

So it's hardly a new experience for you.

And my belief that God accepted both Cain & Abel's offering in Genesis 4 drew ridicule from my brothers and sisters; so much so, in fact, that I quit teaching adults.

Your brothers and sisters read Genesis 4 better than you did.

I've had students correct me from time to time -- it happens.

In short, I didn't leave my church.

No, you just told them to take a hike.
 
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Nathan Poe

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I knew a pastor that was so grieved that parents do not take better care of their children. Everyone seems to want God to do everything for them and they do not want to take the responsability to do anything for themselves.

Agreed -- and that's one of the many reasons I reject creationism.

It's pathetic how many miracles people demand from God just so their little pet belief can remained unchallenged.
 
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AV1611VET

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Everyone seems to want God to do everything for them and they do not want to take the responsability to do anything for themselves.
Agreed -- and that's one of the many reasons I reject creationism.
Because you wanted to do it, yourself?

Sounds like someone I know:

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


Come to think of it, your custom user title sounds a bit like this passage.
 
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Belk

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Then there are people like Gandhi, who institute programs of starvation under the guise of religion; and the people, who chose to follow his religion, rather than what the Bible says:

1 Corinthians 6:13a Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats:


Yeah, odd how those other religions follow their own holy book instead of yours. :p
 
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Nathan Poe

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Because you wanted to do it, yourself?

Sounds like someone I know:

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Come to think of it, your custom user title sounds a bit like this passage.

So you admit that God's your personal errand boy -- He works to glorify you.

Why do the agnostics seems to have more respect for God than you do? "I'm not sure He exists, but if He does, He deserves better than the treatment you give Him."
 
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Inan3

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Hey, sis -- my pastor points out that Job did not do one thing wrong.

Well, I guess this is one of those times I would disagree with your pastor. ;)

God even calls him "perfect and upright".

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

A search of these words will reveal they do not necessarily mean that the upright never do anything wrong only that their heart is right toward God. In God's eyes you and I are upright and perfect because we pursue Him and His ways. Job was an upright man and one that feared God but this is how God describes all those that follow Him.

I think Job himself realized why he was going through all this and he blamed himself. In chapter 3 he is confessing why he thinks it all happened. He saw himself as one that was not happy complaining and mourning all the time. He walked in fear and the thing he mourned and complained and feared about finally came upon him. Chapter 1 tells that his children were always partying and Job was worried about them all the time. He continually offered sacrifices because he was so worried (Job 1:5). Chapter 1 also reveals something going on with his children. The sons always feasting and calling for the three sisters. In the end Job again had three daughters and seven sons but it makes particular mention of the fact that these daughters were given an inheritance among the brothers. So I believe Job also had some guilt going on with the treatment of the first three daughters and their brothers. What that is I'm not sure but usually there is specific mention of things to bring out or reveal a truth.


He maintained his integrity all throughout his ordeal, and when God showed up at the end, it was his friends he had to make sacrifice for, not the other way around.

One feature that makes a man upright is that they turn to God in trouble and humble themselves before Him when they have done wrong. Yes, Job maintained his integrity but he did make several mistakes. God called him on it. In the end it was because Job repented that he was to pray for his friends because they did not (see 42: 7 & 8). It is thought that Job was a priest and therefore, he would be the one who would offer the sacrifices. It was also because Job repented that his sacrifice was accepted.


Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
Job 38:3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
Job 40:1
Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Job 40:5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.
Job 42:1 ThenJob answered the LORD, and said,
Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Job was a type of Christ.

I love this comparison chart: Jesus and Job Compared.

Interesting chart... but...


Bet you didn't expect this answer.. Ha Ha :) Well, maybe you did. :p I'm glad you mentioned this because it got me reading Job again. I love the book of Job but it's been awhile since I've read through it.
 
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AV1611VET

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Bet you didn't expect this answer.. Ha Ha :) Well, maybe you did.
LOL -- Nope, you blindsided me with that one! -- ^_^

I'll just ask Job himself, when I see him! :thumbsup:
 
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