Pre-Tribulation Rapture

HisdaughterJen · Sep 7, 2010

John Christian V said:
Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

If the 'rapture' occurs at the time of the 5th seal, why are the "the souls of them that were slain for the word of God" (Rev. 6:9) instructed to "rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled"?

That was the answer to the question they asked!

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Final judgment and vengeance of the martyrs takes place when Christ comes on the clouds to destroy...after the martyrs of the beast happen.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

So, this happens before the great and terrible day of the the LORD [Yahweh]. I'm not arguing against that fact.

But I'm not sure why the army described in Joel ch.2 must be the armies of Gog and Magog.

Joel 2:7-10
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

This army actually seems supernatural, or possessing of some kind of very advanced technology to say the least.

Ezekiel 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

Joel 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

Those two verses contradict each other, do they not?

Both are described as massive NORTHERN armies.

Let me add another dimension to that:

When the devil is cast down in Rev 12, at the time the child is caught up, he realizes he's been cast down and sends a FLOOD after the woman but that flood is swallowed up while the woman is protected.

Remember, there's a lot going on at once. The church is caught up, the devil is cast down, Israel is sealed, and gog is invading Israel....and God destroys gog with the 1st and 2nd trumpets of the 7th seal.
The flood (armies) sent by the cast-down devil against the woman (Israel) is gog.

I think that since the fallen angels are cast down too, there might indeed be a spiritual force that is invading along with gog.

In fact, I believe that gog, chief prince of Meshach and Tubal, is the devil.

So, when the devil is released when the millenium is over, gog and magog is the same people as is aroused against Israel as ...well, right now...Islamic/Arab/Persian

John Christian V · Sep 7, 2010

"Their fellowservants and their brethren are to be killed as they were" (Rev. 6:11), not wishy-washy people who will supposedly somehow be saved during the time of the "strong delusion" which 2 Thessalonians tells us is specifically sent by God that all who have not yet believed the truth will be damned (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).

There are a lot of people and places north of Israel. I have no reason to believe that Gog is synonymous with Satan. Ezekiel tells us that Gog is the land of Magog. Magog is one of the sons of Japheth, son of Noah (Genesis 10:2, 1 Chronicles 1:5)

HisdaughterJen · Sep 7, 2010

John Christian V said:
"Their fellowservants and their brethren are to be killed as they were" (Rev. 6:11), not wishy-washy people who will supposedly somehow be saved during the time of the "strong delusion" which 2 Thessalonians tells us is specifically sent by God that all who have not yet believed the truth will be damned (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).

Beheaded for refusing the mark is hardly wishy-washy. ALL who have NOT believed is SPECIFICALLY THAT...ALL who have NOT believed!

There are a lot of people and places north of Israel. I have no reason to believe that Gog is synonymous with Satan. Ezekiel tells us that Gog is the land of Magog. Magog is one of the sons of Japheth, son of Noah (Genesis 10:2, 1 Chronicles 1:5)

Well, prince of Persia in Daniel is a spiritual force that the angels battle against. Why would a chief prince of Meshach and Tubal be any different?

Daniel 10:12Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
15And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
16And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
17For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
19And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
20Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

the.Sheepdog · Sep 7, 2010

Magog is Russia. Gog the ruler.

zeke37 · Sep 8, 2010

John Christian V said:
I don't see any evidence for the 5th seal resulting in any kind of 'rapture'.

Also, who says in Revelation ch. 6 that "the great day of his wrath is come"?

Revelation 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Unsaved people say that, correct? It's not declared to be so by an angel or any other messenger of God.

an excellent point...

they THINK it is that time

NJBeliever · Sep 8, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
In fact, I believe that gog, chief prince of Meshach and Tubal, is the devil.

So, when the devil is released when the millenium is over, gog and magog is the same people as is aroused against Israel as ...well, right now...Islamic/Arab/Persian

1) There is no Biblical support for any of this.

2) The nations involved in the Magog war are listed in detail in Ezekiel 38. These are NOT the same Muslim nations which border Israel. Yet you persist in repeating this mistruth over and over again in threads.

HisdaughterJen · Sep 8, 2010

NJBeliever said:
1) There is no Biblical support for any of this.

2) The nations involved in the Magog war are listed in detail in Ezekiel 38. These are NOT the same Muslim nations which border Israel. Yet you persist in repeating this mistruth over and over again in threads.

Ezek 38:

5Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: 6Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Ezek 38:
Persia = Iran...MUSLIM!
Libya = Libya...MUSLIM!
Ethiopia = Ethiopia...MUSLIM!
Togarmah = Turkey....MUSLIM!
Gomer = the "stans"....MUSLIM!

Psalm 83:
Edom and Moab and Ammon = Jordan....MUSLIM!
Philistines = Palestinians....MUSLIM!
Tyre = Lebanon...MUSLIM!
Gebal = Lebanon...MUSLIM!
Assyria = Iraq/Iran/Turkey/Syria....MUSLIM!

Isaiah 17:
Damascus = Syria...MUSLIM!

Zephaniah 2:
Gaza = Gaza....MUSLIM!

Ezek 28:
Zidon = Lebanon....MUSLIM!

Ezek 28:21Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it,
22And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.
23For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
24And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
25Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. 26And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.

ivebeenshown · Sep 8, 2010

I don't know much about the etymology of the countries, but it is pretty obvious that Islam is playing a HUGE role in what's going down.... but not as huge as the Church's role and most of all, our LORD's role.

NJBeliever · Sep 8, 2010

HisdaughterJen said:
Ezek 38:

5Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: 6Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

Ezek 38:
Persia = Iran...MUSLIM!
Libya = Libya...MUSLIM!
Ethiopia = Ethiopia...MUSLIM!
Togarmah = Turkey....MUSLIM!
Gomer = the "stans"....MUSLIM!

Psalm 83:
Edom and Moab and Ammon = Jordan....MUSLIM!
Philistines = Palestinians....MUSLIM!
Tyre = Lebanon...MUSLIM!
Gebal = Lebanon...MUSLIM!
Assyria = Iraq/Iran/Turkey/Syria....MUSLIM!

Isaiah 17:
Damascus = Syria...MUSLIM!

Zephaniah 2:
Gaza = Gaza....MUSLIM!

Ezek 28:
Zidon = Lebanon....MUSLIM!

Ezek 28:21Son of man, set thy face against Zidon, and prophesy against it,
22And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Zidon; and I will be glorified in the midst of thee: and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall have executed judgments in her, and shall be sanctified in her.
23For I will send into her pestilence, and blood into her streets; and the wounded shall be judged in the midst of her by the sword upon her on every side; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
24And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel, nor any grieving thorn of all that are round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I am the Lord GOD.
25Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob. 26And they shall dwell safely therein, and shall build houses, and plant vineyards; yea, they shall dwell with confidence, when I have executed judgments upon all those that despise them round about them; and they shall know that I am the LORD their God.

Russia...Not Muslim (which you conveniently left out, even though they are the lead nation in this).

Additionally, the Magog coalition are NOT Israel's neighbors. Their neighbors are the Psalm 83 coalition. These are 2 different wars entirely. Ezekiel 28 is a reference to the Psalm 83 coalition, not Gog/Magog.

And if I am reading your post correctly, you now believe that Gog/Magog and Psalm 83 are different wars. Is this correct?

HisdaughterJen · Sep 8, 2010

NJBeliever said:
Russia...Not Muslim (which you conveniently left out, even though they are the lead nation in this).

Additionally, the Magog coalition are NOT Israel's neighbors. Their neighbors are the Psalm 83 coalition. These are 2 different wars entirely. Ezekiel 28 is a reference to the Psalm 83 coalition, not Gog/Magog.

And if I am reading your post correctly, you now believe that Gog/Magog and Psalm 83 are different wars. Is this correct?

Where is Russia mentioned in Ezek 38, NJ? I noticed you conveniently left out proof!

http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=MESHECH

Both Psalm 83 and Ezek 38/39 have God stepping in for the same purpose.

Ezek 38 23Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Ezek 39:7So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Psalm 83:

16Fill their faces with shame; that they may seek thy name, O LORD.
17Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish: 18That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

John Christian V · Sep 8, 2010

the.Sheepdog said:
Magog is Russia. Gog the ruler.

What evidence do we have that Magog is Russia? Is it because the word translated as "chief" in Ezekiel 38:2 is the Hebrew word "rosh"? Well, that may be a bit of a stretch. Rosh is translated as "head" 263 times and "chief" 95 times in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief [rosh] prince [nasi] of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

Here is what we know about Magog from the Scriptures.

Genesis 10:1-2
1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.
5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

So, Meshech, Tubal, and Gomer are the brothers of Magog, while Togarmah and Tarshish are his nephews.

The same genealogy is given to us in 1 Chronicles:

1 Chronicles 1:5-7
5 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.
6 And the sons of Gomer; Ashchenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.
7 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

After many thousands of years, can anyone honestly say they know exactly where these tribes settled, and who their descendants are at the present time?

The only people I know of who are etymologically close to Magog are the Magyars. "Hungarians (or Magyars, in Hungarian: magyarok) are an ethnic group primarily associated with Hungary, a Central European state, and its predecessor states (the Kingdom of Hungary and the People's Republic of Hungary). There are around 14 million Hungarians, of whom 10 million live in today's Hungary (as of 2001).[1] About 2.5 million Hungarians live in areas that belonged to (the Kingdom of) Hungary before the 1920 Treaty of Trianon, but are now parts of Hungary's seven neighbour countries, especially Romania, Slovakia, Serbia and Ukraine." (from wikipedia)

"The Magyar or Hungarian language belongs to the Finno-Ugric family. A nomadic nation, the Magyars migrated (c.460) from the Urals to the Northern Caucasus region. They remained there for about 400 years; during a portion of that time they were allied with the Khazars. Contact with Turkic peoples seems to have been close, for many Magyar words of Turkish origin, relating to animal husbandry and political and military organization, were in use before the 9th cent. Late in the 9th cent. the advance of the Pechenegs forced the Magyars westward across S Russia and into present Romania." (from infoplease.com)

But are the Magyars the descendants of Magog? It's hard to say for certain either way.

However, there is something many may not be aware concerning the relationship between Russia and Israel.

The Soviet Union was one of the first nations to recognize Israel in 1948. They were actually the first major power to support Israel, before Israel began to turn toward the west. And now:

"Since the end of the Cold War, relations between Russia and Israel have been on the upswing. A major source of the strengthened ties between the two countries is that one out of every seven Israelis is Russian due to the roughly one million Russian Jews who immigrated to Israel in recent decades.[1]
As a result, Israel is home to the worlds largest diaspora of Russian speakers outside of non-Russian-speaking countries.[2] The two nations have a growing trade relationship,[3] and a business venture involving Russian and Israeli scientists has produced and successfully tested a fuel tank for hydrogen-powered cars.[4] Meanwhile, security cooperation continues as both countries face the threat of terrorism from radical Islamist groups.[5] Next year, Russia and Israel will celebrate 20 years of continuous diplomatic relations." (from israelseen.com, article entitled "Fact Sheet Russia-Israel Relations")

John Christian V · Sep 8, 2010

zeke37 said:
an excellent point...

they THINK it is that time

I can't take credit for it. Bible2 mentioned this idea in one of his posts in another thread. Makes sense to me though.

NJBeliever · Sep 8, 2010

HisdaughterJen -- 1) Magog as Russia- we know this the same we know Persia is Iran, from historical sources (i.e., Josephus, herodotus and modern anthropologists and historical researchers, etc). The descendants of Magog were the Scythians, who settled in what is now Russia and the Ukraine. And neither is a Muslim country.

2) Gog/Magog vs Psalm 83- Now that I answered your question, do you believe that these are two different battles?

John Christian V · Sep 8, 2010

NJBeliever said:
HisdaughterJen -- 1) Magog as Russia- we know this the same we know Persia is Iran, from historical sources (i.e., Josephus, herodotus and modern anthropologists and historical researchers, etc). The descendants of Magog were the Scythians, who settled in what is now Russia and the Ukraine. And neither is a Muslim country.

2) Gog/Magog vs Psalm 83- Now that I answered your question, do you believe that these are two different battles?

"Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians." (Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, 6:1)

In his book Antiquities of the Jews, the Jewish historian and scholar Josephus identifies Magog with the Scythians,[23][24] but this name seems to have been used generically in antiquity for a number of peoples north of the Black Sea. (from wikipedia article on Gog and Magog)

Most of what we know about the Scythians was recorded by Herodotus in his Histories.

Interestingly enough, the Scythians are mentioned in the New Testament.

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Some people actually believe certain tribes of the Scythians may have been descended from some of the Lost Tribes of Israel taken into captivity by the Assyrians in 722 B.C. The Scythians were also known as the Sacae or Saka, possibly related to the name Isaac/Itzhak.

I've read Herodotus, and I did find a few peculiar things mentioned about them.

"63. Such are the observances of the Scythians with respect to sacrifice. They never use swine for the purpose, nor indeed is it their wont to breed them in any part of their country."

"73... After the burial, those engaged in it have to purify themselves, which they do in the following way..."

"80...Thus rigidly do the Scythians maintain their own customs, and thus severely do they punish such as adopt foreign usages."

(from The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, ed. and tr., vol. 3, Book 4, Chapters 2-36, 46-82. New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1885 from shsu.edu, "Herodotus on the Scythians)

But none of this really matters in relation to the matter at hand.

Revelation 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

One single time Revelation mentions Gog and Magog. The only time Gog and Magog are named in the Bible after the prophecy of Ezekiel. Are we really to understand that the prophecy of Ezekiel and the prophecy of John concerning Gog and Magog are two separate events? Why? Because some pastor or commentator said so? Seems like a bunch of confusing nonsense to me. And we know that Yahweh does not seek to confuse us.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We need to study the word of God, rather than simply trust the word of man about the word of God

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

You all can go on believing that Gog and Magog will attack the modern nation-state of Israel prior to the unfolding of certain end-times events if you want, but I don't understand why you would. Tell me, have the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 been fulfilled? Please read the verses carefully.

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 8, 2010

John Christian V said:
"Magog founded those that from him were named Magogites, but who are by the Greeks called Scythians." (Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, 6:1)

In his book Antiquities of the Jews, the Jewish historian and scholar Josephus identifies Magog with the Scythians,[23][24] but this name seems to have been used generically in antiquity for a number of peoples north of the Black Sea. (from wikipedia article on Gog and Magog)

Most of what we know about the Scythians was recorded by Herodotus in his Histories.

Interestingly enough, the Scythians are mentioned in the New Testament.

Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Some people actually believe certain tribes of the Scythians may have been descended from some of the Lost Tribes of Israel taken into captivity by the Assyrians in 722 B.C. The Scythians were also known as the Sacae or Saka, possibly related to the name Isaac/Itzhak.

I've read Herodotus, and I did find a few peculiar things mentioned about them.

"63. Such are the observances of the Scythians with respect to sacrifice. They never use swine for the purpose, nor indeed is it their wont to breed them in any part of their country."

"73... After the burial, those engaged in it have to purify themselves, which they do in the following way..."

"80...Thus rigidly do the Scythians maintain their own customs, and thus severely do they punish such as adopt foreign usages."

(from The History of Herodotus, George Rawlinson, ed. and tr., vol. 3, Book 4, Chapters 2-36, 46-82. New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1885 from shsu.edu, "Herodotus on the Scythians)

But none of this really matters in relation to the matter at hand.

Revelation 20:7-8
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

One single time Revelation mentions Gog and Magog. The only time Gog and Magog are named in the Bible after the prophecy of Ezekiel. Are we really to understand that the prophecy of Ezekiel and the prophecy of John concerning Gog and Magog are two separate events? Why? Because some pastor or commentator said so? Seems like a bunch of confusing nonsense to me. And we know that Yahweh does not seek to confuse us.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We need to study the word of God, rather than simply trust the word of man about the word of God

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

You all can go on believing that Gog and Magog will attack the modern nation-state of Israel prior to the unfolding of certain end-times events if you want, but I don't understand why you would. Tell me, have the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 been fulfilled? Please read the verses carefully.

Joel 2.

There is a "Northern army" invasion before the Day of the Lord, when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall, earthquake.

If you compare that moment in time to Matthew 24 and Revelation 6, the 6th seal, you will see it.

John Christian V · Sep 8, 2010

Swordsmanoffaith said:
Joel 2.

There is a "Northern army" invasion before the Day of the Lord, when the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall, earthquake.

If you compare that moment in time to Matthew 24 and Revelation 6, the 6th seal, you will see it.

But the northern army of Joel is different from the armies of Gog and Magog. I pointed that out on page 4 of this thread, but I'll cut and paste it for you here.

Joel 2:7-10
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

This army actually seems supernatural, or possessing of some kind of very advanced technology to say the least.

Ezekiel 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

Joel 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

Those two verses contradict each other, do they not?

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 9, 2010

John Christian V said:
But the northern army of Joel is different from the armies of Gog and Magog. I pointed that out on page 4 of this thread, but I'll cut and paste it for you here.

Joel 2:7-10
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

This army actually seems supernatural, or possessing of some kind of very advanced technology to say the least.

Ezekiel 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

Joel 2:8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

Those two verses contradict each other, do they not?

Yes, at first glance, they do appear to be contradictory.

But, given the timing, they have to be the same - one just has slightly more/different information than the other regarding the same event.

There are other examples of that sort of thing where it's describing the same event but there is other information given - like the great multitude of Revelation 7 and the child/church in Revelation 12.

John Christian V · Sep 9, 2010

Swordsmanoffaith said:
Yes, at first glance, they do appear to be contradictory.

But, given the timing, they have to be the same - one just has slightly more/different information than the other regarding the same event.

There are other examples of that sort of thing where it's describing the same event but there is other information given - like the great multitude of Revelation 7 and the child/church in Revelation 12.

The child is not the church in Revelation 12. The child is Christ.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Psalm 2:7-9
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Yes, Yahshua tells the church of Thyatira - "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

But that is because the church is to "reign with him" (2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 20:6)

Now back to Joel and Ezekiel.

Swordsmanoffaith said:
But, given the timing, they have to be the same - one just has slightly more/different information than the other regarding the same event.

No, it doesn't have to be the same. That's not just more or different information.

Joel's "northern army" (Joel 2:20) - "Neither shall one thrust another..." (Joel 2:8)

Ezekiel's Gog/Magog confederacy - "And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother." (Ezekiel 38:21))

Also, Joel tells us that Israel may repent, and the attack by the northern army may be averted.

Joel 2:12-14, 20
12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

But Ezekiel states that the attack by Gog/Magog confederacy is a certainty, and that "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel..." (Ezekiel 39:4)

Furthermore, Ezekiel gives us no indication that the attack of the Gog/Magog confederacy will occur before the "the great and the terrible day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31).

Also, the modern nation-state of Israel is not currently dwelling safely, nor is it likely to do so anytime in the foreseeable future.

Ezekiel 38:8 "...and they shall dwell safely all of them."
Ezekiel 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
Ezekiel 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

This has never been true of the modern nation-state of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

That is also not the situation today. Neither all Jews, nor all the physical descendants of Israel have been gathered into the land of Israel.

Again, I ask you to read Ezekiel 37 carefully, and tell me whether you believe those prophecies have been fulfilled by the nation of Israel founded in 1948.

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 9, 2010

John Christian V said:
The child is not the church in Revelation 12. The child is Christ.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Psalm 2:7-9
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Yes, Yahshua tells the church of Thyatira - "And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

But that is because the church is to "reign with him" (2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 20:6)

.

Revelation 2:26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 3:21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The child is the church because the child is caught up when the devil is cast down and goes after the other kids of the woman.

Swordsmanoffaith · Sep 9, 2010

John Christian V said:
Now back to Joel and Ezekiel.

No, it doesn't have to be the same. That's not just more or different information.

Joel's "northern army" (Joel 2:20) - "Neither shall one thrust another..." (Joel 2:8)

Ezekiel's Gog/Magog confederacy - "And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother." (Ezekiel 38:21))

Also, Joel tells us that Israel may repent, and the attack by the northern army may be averted.

Joel 2:12-14, 20
12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

But Ezekiel states that the attack by Gog/Magog confederacy is a certainty, and that "Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel..." (Ezekiel 39:4)

Furthermore, Ezekiel gives us no indication that the attack of the Gog/Magog confederacy will occur before the "the great and the terrible day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31).

The Northern army in Joel 2 is invading when the moon and sun are darkening and stars falling which is the 6th seal.

The Northern army in Ezek 38 is destroyed by hail, fire, and blood which is the first events of the 7th seal Day of the Lord.

They are different descriptions of the same army.

Also, the modern nation-state of Israel is not currently dwelling safely, nor is it likely to do so anytime in the foreseeable future.

The current state of Israel became a nation at the time of a rare tetrad- four blood moons on feast days. The current state of Israel got Jerusalem back at the time of a tetrad. The next tetrad (and last of the century) is 2014-2015. If you'll notice, Israel is getting back what they lost when they were desolated, the last of which is God and their relationship to Him.

The current state of Israel has an unrivaled military. They are secure in their strength. This idea to "wipe Israel off the map" has been around since Israel became a nation again. The description of Israel in Ezek 38 is compared to what they once were. They are a land of unwalled villages. They are regathered from the nations, etc.

Ezekiel 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

This passage is speaking of the past, JohnChristian.

Again, I ask you to read Ezekiel 37 carefully, and tell me whether you believe those prophecies have been fulfilled by the nation of Israel founded in 1948.

The resurrection of Israel is at the time of the invasion.

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