Introducing myself

The Gentleman Atheist · Mar 28, 2010

aiki said:
Your remarks above seem to imply, essentially, that morality is defined by the number of people who hold a particular attitude toward a specific behaviour: Everbody agrees that Dahmer's cannibalism was immoral therefore it is.

I perhaps would argue that it is arguable. I would not condescend to pick a side in such a debate.

aiki said:
what happens when the majority of people agree that cannibalism is okay? Is it therefore moral?

Perhaps it may be, but it does not provide much for the future of the human race, does it? Well perhaps with a little Béarnaise sauce

O! But I jest! Insert smily face here.

aiki said:
I think the fact that, by and large, people everywhere (including atheists) would condemn Dahmer's cannibalism as evil suggests that there is an objective morality that exists. But how does such a morality come into being? Impersonal, random, mechanical, natural processes cannot account for such a thing.

How do you mean that impersonal, random, mechanical, natural processes cannot account for this? You seem very convinced, but you do not provide a reason for your conviction. Please explain.

Keep up the good work in the colonies.

The Gentleman Atheist

The Gentleman Atheist · Mar 28, 2010

ephraimanesti said:
Would you be pleased and fulfilled if i sat, barked, and rolled-over?

Ephraim, you are already barking so much so that you are getting spittle on the inside of my monitor. It's blather, dear sir. Absolute blather. Do try to say something nice, Effy, dear and for the love of goodness, please do not condemn people for mistaking meditation for prayer or vice-versa. They are so darned close, the distinction dare not be made.

and if you really must say something, please try to keep it under three or four sentences. I am worried that your next jeremiad may be a sequel to Homer.

The Gentleman Atheist · Mar 28, 2010

singpeace said:
I don't ever try to push Christ on anyone. I hope I am always respectful toward others and give answers without any agendas.

Singpeace, that is very pleasant to hear. I do have to admit that this was a big worry of mine when I dared to venture into this "lion's den" (if you will). I have to say that I have been very pleased with my experiences here, and I have learned a great deal from the fine people who roam these halls.

I may just stick around for a while.

I do hope that there is proper tea service.

In any case, regarding your own story, I do lean more to the side of Spoonbill – though I wouldn't deign to give credence to anything of the mystical aspects of Eastern meditation. I tend to put my chi in a cup and drink it – more nourishment that way, you understand?

The same currently holds for your own mystical claims. All that you describe could certainly be explained by natural and physiological phenomena. However, I am not here to persecute anyone, and you seem very sincere. I would like to think about your experience and ask you some further questions after I have given it some time to distill to a greater clarity. I am hoping very much that you will oblige.

singpeace said:
My part in God's kingdom is to tell others what He did and still does for me.

Of course, you remember to wait for solicitation, do you? Of course you do.

It has been a great pleasure to meet you. And also to the Misters Spoonbill and Hikersong.

The Gentleman Atheist

ephraimanesti · Mar 29, 2010

The Gentleman Atheist said:
Ephraim, you are already barking so much so that you are getting spittle on the inside of my monitor. It's blather, dear sir. Absolute blather.

MY DEAR LONG-SUFFERING FRIEND,

You are too kind for saying so!

Sorry about your monitor!

The Gentleman Atheist said:
Do try to say something nice, Effy, dear and for the love of goodness, please do not condemn people for mistaking meditation for prayer or vice-versa. They are so darned close, the distinction dare not be made.

Actually, you are so darn wrong that a distinction must be made and insisted upon. Prayer and meditation are worlds apart both in practice and goals, and have very little in common beyond physical techniques as viewed externally.

i have found that for credibilities' sake it is best to not critique things which one has not personally participated in and experienced. i am not condemning anyone--only explaining differences to un-confuse such as yourself.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
and if you really must say something, please try to keep it under three or four sentences.

Yes, i understand that Truth should be carefully spoon-fed in small doses to those who are intolerant of it. i am sure that God understands the necessity of your request--being able to see into your heart and accurately evaluate your needs and all--and i will try my best to do as you ask. But i do have an obligation to pass on that with which i have been entrusted for you by God--given that i am in His employ and all.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
I am worried that your next jeremiad may be a sequel to Homer.

Would that were possible! However, i don't jeremiad--wassailing being more consistent with my demeanor.

:bow:

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

The Gentleman Atheist · Mar 29, 2010

Mr. Ephraim,

You are moving in my estimation from merely a dim-witted and sanctimonious agitator to someone who may possibly have some serious mental-health issues. I would wish the former, for your sake, but perhaps you can clear up any debate. To do so, please answer these three things.

1.
Do you or do you not believe that you are actually contributing something to this thread. What might that be, pray tell?

2.

ephraimanesti said:
MY DEAR LONG-SUFFERING FRIEND,

Why do you think I am suffering? Did I say I was suffering?

3.

ephraimanesti said:
Prayer and meditation are worlds apart both in practice and goals, and have very little in common beyond physical techniques as viewed externally. // i have found that for credibilities' sake it is best to not critique things which one has not personally participated in and experienced. i am not condemning anyone--only explaining differences to un-confuse such as yourself.

When did I say that I had not personally participated in these things? It would be helpful to me to know from whence you draw your facts and presumptions.

Please make your declaration. If you can not focus on these three questions without straying, I shall better understand your situation.

Thanking you for this clarification.

The Gentleman Atheist

ephraimanesti · Mar 29, 2010

Mr. Ephraim,

You are moving in my estimation from merely a dim-witted and sanctimonious agitator to someone who may possibly have some serious mental-health issues. I would wish the former, for your sake, but perhaps you can clear up any debate. To do so, please answer these three things.
MY DEAR FRIEND,

Never having been one to do things by half-measures, perhaps all of the above possibilities pertain.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
1.
Do you or do you not believe that you are actually contributing something to this thread. What might that be, pray tell?

i have no clue. i just do what i am told. Perhaps my contribution might be along the lines of Philip's service to the Ethiopian in Acts 8:26-40), perhaps along the lines of the thorn's service to St. Paul in II Corinthians 11:7, or perhaps merely a following of our Lord's injunction in II Timothy 4:2.

i guess you can just pick one and i will run with it. (May our God guide your choice!)

The Gentleman Atheist said:
2.
Why do you think I am suffering? Did I say I was suffering?

Well, actually i was referring to your putting up so patiently with me in spite of your long-standing distaste for the Truth.

But now that you mention it . . . . if the Truth be told, atheists all suffer to one degree or another--either consciously or subconsciously--due to the fact that they are, in reality, human beings created in the Image and Likeness of God but instead of claiming their birthright and living that out, they are trying to live as "evolved animals," "accidentally formed" as the result of "meaningless random cosmic accidents". This is, to say the least, not an easy task at best, and the strain of the incongruity of the two states of being must be quite painful to most.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
3.

When did I say that I had not personally participated in these things? It would be helpful to me to know from whence you draw your facts and presumptions.

We learn by doing and by observing the outcome of our doing. Had you BOTH prayed and meditated to any great depth, you would know from experience the difference between the two and would not be tempted to wrongfully equate them in any way--even though that equating was necessary to propping up your belief system--or lack thereof as the case may be.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
Please make your declaration. If you can not focus on these three questions without straying, I shall better understand your situation.

My situation is not that complicated--my Lord's fool engaged in my Lord's purposes.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
Thanking you for this clarification.

The Gentleman Atheist

i am blessed to be of service to both you and your Creator.

:bow:

ABBA'S fool,
ephraim

Chesterton · Mar 30, 2010

The Gentleman Atheist said:
After doing some research, I had my driver take me to a public house to sample some of this "Guinness" that you speak of. I do like to quaff an occasional stout ale, but my goodness, man! This stuff is common Irish swill! You may have it if you will. I shall stick to my Calvados.

Oh my, you've already brought international politics and warfare into this thread. I don't mind defending the invasion of a nation or two, but I'm very hesitant to insert myself into such an important matter as an Englishman's assessment of an Irishman's drink. Attempting to be as diplomatic as possible, I'll just say that Calvados makes a lovely palate cleanser or breakfast drink, but when a working-class stiff like me gets thirsty, we prefer something a bit more vigorous.

This is puzzling rhetoric whatever do you mean by, "within the context of a fallen world?"

It just means that so long as all men are imperfect (as is my belief), allowances have to be made for reaction to bad behavior (something akin to the Greek idea of οικονόμια or economia ). But there are Christians who are pacifists and would disagree with me here, it's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

The Gentleman Atheist · Mar 30, 2010

Chesterton said:
but when a working-class stiff like me

Working class? Oh dear. What kind of forum have I stumbled into here?

Chesterton said:
It just means that so long as all men are imperfect (as is my belief), allowances have to be made for reaction to bad behavior But there are Christians who are pacifists and would disagree with me here, it's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Understood. The problem lies in the fact that the only people to decide whether another person's behaviour is bad or not, are cut from the same imperfect cloth as those they judge. It is one devil of a möbius strip, isn't it?

Still, we struggle for answers. What a strange creature is this human being.

Remaining a human (and a gentleman),

The Gentleman Atheist

The Gentleman Atheist · Mar 30, 2010

Ephraimanesti,

Thank you for answering my questions in such a open and honest manner. You have allowed me to better understand who you are, and I apologize for not having posed these questions to you sooner.

Could this conciliatory gesture be the Calvados speaking? No, I think not. I have reviewed some of your posts, and I must say that we may never agree on anything. That being said, I welcome your posts from this point and forward at least the ones that actually say something.

ephraimanesti said:
"Mr. Ephraim,

You are moving in my estimation from merely a dim-witted and sanctimonious agitator to someone who may possibly have some serious mental-health issues. I would wish the former, for your sake, but perhaps you can clear up any debate. To do so, please answer these three things."

Never having been one to do things by half-measures, perhaps all of the above possibilities pertain.

Aha! A sense of humour! This helped my decision above immensely.

ephraimanesti said:
We learn by doing and by observing the outcome of our doing. Had you BOTH prayed and meditated to any great depth, you would know from experience the difference between the two and would not be tempted to wrongfully equate them in any way--even though that equating was necessary to propping up your belief system--or lack thereof as the case may be.

I will grant here that, yes, there is a difference, but I refuse to divulge my opinion if one is better than the other.

ephraimanesti said:
i am blessed to be of service to both you and your Creator.

In order to keep this a gentlemanly conversation, I do ask that that you keep my mother out of it.

Touchée, you brave christian soldier!

The Gentleman Atheist

Nilla · Mar 31, 2010

Mod Hat On

This thread has been cleaned

Mod Hat Off

GreenMunchkin · Apr 1, 2010

As per your invitation, have lugged the discussion over thisa way

As you are host, will there be tea? And cake? There really should be tea and cake. Also Nutella, please.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
Miss Munchkin,

I do assure you that the attitude that you present in your posts is radically different than that displayed by the chap that I mention above. This fellow presents all of the bombastic calling cards of an intellectual coward and a hate-monger. I would like to say that it is not worth our time to discuss this; however, since hatred leads to far nastier things, I chose to challenge him.

When you said hatred is hatred, your post rather gave the impression you were referring to the Bible. Did I misunderstand? Am sorry, if so.

Leaving that conversation aside, I am sorry that you feel your path in this part of your life has been troubled.

No, it hasn't been, at all. As a non-Christian and young Christian, I believed homosexuality was ok. As I grew closer to God, He started to put it on my heart that it wasn't His plan. I love Him, so I chose to follow Him. He's a beautiful, beautiful God and as He's healed me, the temptation has gone. This isn't me repressing something I feel is disgusting or evil. It's no more or less of a sin than any other, and I still struggle with many. But He sovereignly healed me and I can look back at where I was and understand that I was far more unwell then, and my attraction to women was a manifestation of that. So you see, it hasn't been troubled - it's been unmerited grace.

It seems to me that you are a better person than you think that you are, which does confuse my sense of logic a tad.

Confuse your logic in what way?

You seem to have the idea that there's some self-dislike issues... that's simply not the case. No Christian should ever feel that they are bally champion. But each and every one of us - Christian and non-Christian alike - is inherently and immeasurably valuable as someone hand-created, and very specifically loved, by God. If you can sit back and truly say you know you're loved by God, there's no need to navel-gaze or bother with feeling like a wretched person. That isn't what He wants for us, either. Tis actually very cool

ephraimanesti · Apr 2, 2010

The Gentleman Atheist said:
I will grant here that, yes, there is a difference, but I refuse to divulge my opinion if one is better than the other.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

Well, in all truth, your atheist icon pretty much gives your little secret away.

What a tragedy!--being so suave, sophisticated, worldly, and urbane on the one hand, and so lacking in meaningful--i.e., Godly--wisdom, faith, knowledge, and, most importantly, humility, on the other. These two character traits cancel each other out and leave you a cypher. You are created capable of so much better!

Anyway, "coincidentally", i just came across the following quote from Gerald G. May, M.D.'s book ADDICTION AND GRACE" (so sorry it is a bit more than the 3 sentences you generously allotted me a while back!):

"Someone may teach me a meditation technique that will help ease some of the symptoms of my stress addiction. That this technique may come from a spiritual tradition and involves spiritual images does not make it spiritual for me. It becomes truly spiritual only when my effort is consecrated to Love and not just dedicated to lowering my blood pressure or the acidity of my stomach. Authentic asceticism is not a collection of practices or insights. It is a condition of the heart. With the willing consecration of the heart, any activity, however mundane, can become ascetic. Without consecration, no activity, however spiritual it may appear, is truly ascetic.

"In the beginning, we will not understand the full meaning of consecration. Perhaps, in this life, we never will. Nor will we comprehend the ups and downs, the joys and agonies of the journey that must follow. And certainly we will be unable to grasp the overarching cosmic meaning of our small assent, the joy it gives to God, the deepening love it will bring to humanity, the universal covenant it has enriched. We may not have any idea that consecration means encounter with spaciousness, that an unconditioned reality awaits our conditioned mind. But our yes comes from some taste, some bare recollection of all these things. We intuitively know it has something to do with home. There is love in it and hope. We feel a small breeze of freedom. And in the tiny space our heart can prayerfully say "yes."

The Gentleman Atheist said:
In order to keep this a gentlemanly conversation, I do ask that that you keep my mother out of it.

Well, i am guessing that your mom did quite well carrying out her God-given task of giving you life, nurturing that precious life, and equipping you to do battle with the insane world surrounding you. However, it is God alone Who can finish the process in each one of us, and mold us into what He created us--through the instrument of our parents--to be . . . . instruments of Love created in His Image and Likeness.

Whether you like it or not, God loves you dearly and, trust me, He is not through with you yet.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
Touchée, you brave christian soldier!

How i do indeed greatly and fervently wish that that appellation was accurate!

GOD'S PEACE AND LOVE TO YA!

:bow:

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

ephraimanesti · Apr 2, 2010

The Gentleman Atheist said:
This is not an attempt to harry you good people with inefficacious drivel intended to humiliate or injure. In fact, I am desperate to understand you, because I am in a life-relationship with one of you.

MY BROTHER,

It occurs to me that if the situation is as you describe, perhaps understanding WHY you are enamored to your
lady-love--i.e. the things/qualities/attributes she possesses which attract you--might be a shortcut to your understanding her Lord--our Lord/God/Savior Jesus Christ--given that TRUE Christians are molded by Christianity into a mirror of our Lord through whom His Light should shine most clearly. Perhaps it is that Light which drew you to her and, according to God's Plan, should likewise draw you to Him.

Perhaps to understand your beloved is to understand THE Beloved.

:bow:

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

P.S. On the other hand, if this whole thing is a game and this scenario and your persona concocted for your amusement--shame on you.

The Gentleman Atheist · Apr 2, 2010

GreenMunchkin said:
As per your invitation, have lugged the discussion over thisa way As you are host, will there be tea? And cake? There really should be tea and cake. Also Nutella, please.

Certainly! Though we may have to make do with the digital versions of these. Second rate, admittedly. We will have our people work on it.

GreenMunchkin said:
When you said hatred is hatred, your post rather gave the impression you were referring to the Bible. Did I misunderstand? Am sorry, if so.

Oh no, it was a reference to the intent, however tacit, of this fellow of whom we speak not a reference to the bible at all. I don't hesitate to say that the old testament is a homophobe's wet dream (please pardon the pun) and the new testament is an entirely different animal. It seems to me that the Galilean messiah did not once mention homosexuality, and if we extrapolate from his other actions, we find a man who likely accepted homosexuals into his following as readily as any other person. A rather nice chap, he was.

GreenMunchkin said:
You seem to have the idea that there's some self-dislike issues... that's simply not the case.

Yes, it appears that I have misinterpreted. I do hope that you can forgive me I did not intend to offend. Though one question does remain. When you use the word "unwell" do you reserve it for yourself, or extend it to any person who identifies as homosexual, past or present?

It is the Earl of Grey right now. Shall we share that cup, in spirit?

The Gentleman Atheist

The Gentleman Atheist · Apr 2, 2010

ephraimanesti said:
It occurs to me that if the situation is as you describe, perhaps understanding WHY you are enamored to your
lady-love--i.e. the things/qualities/attributes she possesses which attract you--might be a shortcut to your understanding her Lord--our Lord/God/Savior Jesus Christ--given that TRUE Christians are molded by Christianity into a mirror of our Lord through whom His Light should shine most clearly. Perhaps it is that Light which drew you to her and, according to God's Plan, should likewise draw you to Him. // Perhaps to understand your beloved is to understand THE Beloved.

I really do not think it was the light of christ. I believe it had more to do with her more female attributes, which continue to cause Aristotle's ideal to pale.

ephraimanesti said:
P.S. On the other hand, if this whole thing is a game and this scenario and your persona concocted for your amusement--shame on you

Now this is a most interesting postscript. If my character is a constructed persona, then why should I be ashamed? Furthermore, what if it is not a constructed persona?

Thomas The Atheist · Apr 2, 2010

Please allow me to introduce myself...
I'm a man of wealth and taste.

For some reason, this sounds very familiar. Intentional, perhaps?
Who knows what I'm talking about?

ephraimanesti · Apr 2, 2010

Thomas The Atheist said:
Please allow me to introduce myself...
I'm a man of wealth and taste.

For some reason, this sounds very familiar. Intentional, perhaps?
Who knows what I'm talking about?

As an aging ex-fan of the Stones, that is the first thought which entered my mind. However, i dismissed the idea as an act of Christian charity.

ephraim

ephraimanesti · Apr 2, 2010

The Gentleman Atheist said:
I really do not think it was the light of christ. I believe it had more to do with her more female attributes, which continue to cause Aristotle's ideal to pale.

MY BROTHER,

Darn--what a let-down! Just the old Darwinian mating impulse. I thought perhaps the lofty ideals of Love could have been a point of connection.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
Now this is a most interesting postscript. If my character is a constructed persona, then why should I be ashamed?

If that does indeed turn out to be the case--which i honestly hope it doesn't--i would think the shame would come from using a rather silly ruse to poke fun at a bunch of gullible Christians who tend to take people at their word--especially if the words give the illusion of gentleness, affability, and mannerliness.

The Gentleman Atheist said:
Furthermore, what if it is not a constructed persona?

i would be the first to apologize.

:bow:

ABBA'S FOOL
ephraim

Thomas The Atheist · Apr 3, 2010

ephraimanesti said:
As an aging ex-fan of the Stones, that is the first thought which entered my mind. However, i dismissed the idea as an act of Christian charity.

ephraim

=) Good thinking.

What doe ephraim mean btw?

boneo · Apr 3, 2010

I just want to thank the gentleman athiest and all the other people who have made this the most enjoyable thread that I've ever stumbled upon at this forum!

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