Who are the 12 Tribes of Isreal?

Originally posted by EPHRIAM777
I'd clap for this post...but it's not in your own words...It is copy of others "commentary"...on what THEY think...!

Why do you place them SO high above what the BIBLE says...on this matter..??

How did they attain this lofty position in your mind..??

Click to expand...

LOL, 

The Bible actually supports this postion (which I share with the encyclopedia entries I posted), but just for giggles, go ahead and show me how the Bible renders this position false.

 

Oh, BTW, any luck figuring out How a Jew today proves he is of "Hebrew Stock" or How a Jew Today "adheres to the Law"?

YOU posted this extensive copy to somehow lend credibility to YOUR error...made about GENETICS...!

.....Originally posted by LastDazed [/i]
As polite as I can, I must assert it is your inability to grasp the truth of the matter concerning "Hebrew Stock" today reflects your lack of solid study on the matter.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973)
"The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthroinappropriate contentetric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics." (vol. 12, page 1054)

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . ."

"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

Encyclopedia Americana (1986)
"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)
"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they live" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).

Today, being a Jew simply means that one is of the Judaistic religion or a convert to it, or else in a "brotherhood" of those who are. Therefore, being a Jew has nothing to do with race. We are familiar with a number of notable figures, such as Sammy Davis, Jr., Elizabeth Taylor, and Tom Arnold, in fact, who became Jews by conversion to the religion of Judaism.

John Bray said, "Many Christians do not know that the vast majority of so-called Jews in the world today are the Ashkenazim Jews, while the remainder of them are the Sephardim Jews. The Ashkenazim Jews have as their background not the nation of Israel but a country called Khazaria, which country at one time was the largest country in Europe. The settlers of Khazaria were Turks and Huns. In A.D. 740 King Bulan of Khazaria decided to adopt the Judaistic religion for his country. A number of Jews were already living there. So he converted to Judaism, along with all his officials, and whole nation ended up being known as a nation of Jews. In 970 Russia came in and dominated the situation, and the Khazars were scattered, many of them going down into Poland and Lithuania. Where at the dawn of our modern civilization the largest concentration of Jews were found. Today, the largest percentage of so-called Jews in the world have as their background this group of people." (This information is fully documented in detail in John Bray's book, Israel in Bible Prophecy)

Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970)
"In 1970 the Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert." (vol. 14, p. 214)

H.G. Wells
"There can be little doubt that the scattered Phoenicians in Spain and Africa and throughout the Mediterranean, speaking as they did a language closely akin to Hebrew and being deprived of their authentic political rights, became proselytes to Judaism. For phases of vigorous proselytism alternated with phases of exclusive jealousy in Jewish history. On one occasion the Idumeans, being conquered, were all forcibly made Jews. There were Arab tribes who were Jews in the time of Muhammad, and a Turkish people who were mainly Jews in South Russia in the ninth century. Judaism is indeed the reconstructed political ideal of many shattered peoples - mainly Semitic.... The main part of Jewry NEVER was in Judea and had never come out of Judea" (The Outline of History, p. 505).

Therefore, we can clearly and confidently assert that there is no such thing as a Jewish race today, nor ever can there be.

These facts are devastating to Dispensationalism. Obviously, if the nation that they call the heir of Israel is shown to have no relationship to the pre-desolation nation, there is no credibility to that system. There are no twelve tribes today, there is no Jewish race today.

In Christ,

LD

Originally posted by LastDazed [/i]
Please explain how this can be verified.  



Please explain how this is done.



Trick question or not, you sure didn't answer it!!

EPH says...

Here again YOU tried to tie in "genitics".....NOT me...!

Originally posted by LastDazed
What!!??

So if I convert to Judiasm, I become a Hebrew geneticly?

Your statement is so far off base I don't know where to start.

Please give one example of a "Jew" today that is a genetic Hebrew, with roots tracable to any tribe.

Click to expand...

Eph recalls...

If I'm correct...YOU first posted this stuff..not me...YOU began to tie in GENETIC'S...not me... !


YOU made the claims here...not me..! THIS dazed is where YOU went off subject...and sad to say attempted to drag me along WITH you...!

NOW....posted by LastDazed
LOL, 

The Bible actually supports this postion (which I share with the encyclopedia entries I posted), but just for giggles, go ahead and show me how the Bible renders this position false

Oh, BTW, any luck figuring out How a Jew today proves he is of "Hebrew Stock" or How a Jew Today "adheres to the Law"?



Eph writes...

LOL...No..no luck...ya have me stumped on that one...I guess your right...!

LOL...!!

Wouldn't you just love that if it were true... !


Hey we could play the game both ways if you want...!


...Are you saying there ARE no Jews in the world today then..because you say there's no way to prove their really of or from Hebrew stock..?

Since I'm not here to ask double negative questions..( like some )...I'll say "again"...( for those who can't grasp what I'm talking about I'll type real slowww )

A Jew ....is a person ....who follows the OT Laws of Moses..better known to us today as Judiasm...THAT person ....who does that.....is considered a JEW...They then are of Hebrew Stock.....just as much as a person who converts.....Please see EX 12:48:49..or NUM 9:14..or if your more strick see LEV 24:22....!


Eph writes...


Now all I said was this....ALL Jews are Hebrews...but not all HEBREWS are Jews....ALL Jews are Israelites...but not all Israelites are Jews...

I never said anything about GENITICS....you did...! So "any luck figgerin" to defend it..should come from YOU...not me..or those folks who made the commentary you "faith in"

You said it....YOU introduced it....YOU defend it...! LOL


I like you...ya got spunk...! But you are inconsistant when it comes to serious argument/discussion....!

I'll spell it out clearly for you Dazed....YOU said something about "genetics" that I never said or introduced as part of the mix...THEN thinking you were "on to something"...You attacked that point towards ME...BUT I never said anything about "blood/genetics"...EX 12:48:49 says ANYONE could be part of the group..EX 12:38 says a MIXED multitude came out of Egypt...THAT alone would MIX the gene pool...
So genetics ( that you assumed would be the kicker here to win your case )...means NOTHING...

Thats why I ( knowing scripture and commentary )...didn't include IT in MY posts... but YOU did..!


How'm I doing so far Dazed..??


Dazed says...

There are no twelve tribes today, there is no Jewish race today.


Eph wonders...

How these people can show up in Revelation Days is beyond me then IF your correct...! LOL Dazed...see REV 7 when you get the next earliest chance...OK...?

Originally posted by LastDazed [/i]
LOL, 

The Bible actually supports this postion (which I share with the encyclopedia entries I posted), but just for giggles, go ahead and show me how the Bible renders this position false.

 

Oh, BTW, any luck figuring out How a Jew today proves he is of "Hebrew Stock" or How a Jew Today "adheres to the Law"?


Eph calmly writes...

ALL JEWS are Hebrews....but NOT all Hebrews are Jews...

Why...?

Because JOSEPH had NO blood of JUDAH flowing in his veins...

Lets review...!

Jacob had 12 sons....some by Leah...some by Rachel...some by Bilhah...and some by Zilpah...

What that means is SOME brothers were direct blood brothers...like Judah and Reuben..Their dad was the same and so was their mom "Leah"
...Some were HALF brothers by blood...like Joseph and Judah would be...both having the same dad...but different moms..( who were sisters ) Leah and Rachel...

Some were half brothers..but less close in blood...Like Simeon and Gad would have been....verses Simeon and Benjamin...Simeon and Benjamin would have been "closer" because their moms were sisters...where as Simeon and Gad were less close because Gad's mom was the handmaid Zilpah...

Then there were brothers who were even father apart "blood" wise...Asher and Naphtali..both had Jacob as their Father...but they were sons of Zilpah and Bilhah...NO evidence from scripture says that Zilpah and Bilhah were sisters...SO....

Some brothers were full blood brothers..others were a kinda "brother/cousin" type mix...Others were brothers but not as close "blood" wise..with each other...But ALL had their common father Jacob...!

(( This MIX in the sons..is ANOTHER reason "genetics" would have been mixed..and adding in the Mxied multitude...ANY race can be part of "Israel"...! ))

Jospeh was born of RACHEL....Judah was born of Leah...

So these 2 "brothers" were really half brothers/cousins... closer in blood relation than some of their other brothers...because their moms were blood sisters...Follow me so far on that..??

Joseph married in Egypt...and had 2 sons...EPHRAIM ( yes I know how to spell it correctly )...and MANASSEH...They were HALF Egyptian...and Half Hebrew.....But they had NO blood of Judah in ther veins....

The first time in the BIBLE that people are called "Jews" is found in 2 KINGS 16:6...long after Judah was dead...! They were descendants of Judah ....they are Jews...! The descendants of Joseph..are Hebrews...but their not Jews...the descendants of DAN are Hebrews...but that doesn't make them Jews...!

JEWS speaks of the descendants of Judah.."" OR """....those who follow Judiasm....i e the OT Law...

There are OTHER examples I can use to describe what I mean here...IF that isn't enough...!

Paul for example was a JEW..by religion...also a Benjamite..by tribe...a Hebrew by birth..and a Roman citizen...!

So....The Sons of JACOB are the "12 Tribes"...

They are made up of JEWS...and NON Jews...!

ALL of them are surely HEBREWS...

BUT....not all of them are JEWS...just like not all of them are "Danites"...or "Rubenites"....or..... "Levites"...!

They certainly all are ISRAELITES...they all are HEBREWS...but their not all JEWS..!

144,000 is a multiple of 12. So is 12'000.
Shorely this number is symbolic.

Historically the Assyrians wiped away the 10 tribes of Israel in around 722 BC and the Jews, with the Benjamites lived on in Judea for nearly another 100 yrs before they were taken into Babylonian captivity.

After Babylonian captivity it was the Jews and the Benjamites that came out. The Israelites were already totally dispersed by this time and they have been lost and will never be found.

Maybe This 144,000 is symbolic for the Christians still alive at the return of Jesus.


Revelation 14:3
And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Maybe the multitude was the dead in Christ??

I don’t claim to have the answers but I do know that 12 is symbolic and so is 12’000.
Whenever the Old Testament talks of separating a certain amount of men, it is usually 12’000 men.
I also know that there isn’t 12,000 Israelites from 12 different tribes. No matter how much you try to make it be there, it isn’t.

It is a little like hanging on to a flat world

Now I am NO EXPERT here   but I read this and see what you think.

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the childern of Israel.

The 144,000 Jews are not servants when the rapture take place in Rev 4:1, for all in Christ at that time will be translated 1th 4:16 and 1col 15:23. They will be saved after the rapture in the revival predicted in Ac 2:16-21. the are to be saved and become servants of God the time they are sealed. This is why they have Gods's name writtten o them Rev 7:3 14:1, Proof the mark is literal.