I don't want to be a Jew

kivi · Sep 21, 2008

Mordechai18 said:
And this morning we all had the joy of seeing a Jewish celebrity refer to the Christian scriptures as "... new Goyish crappy shiksa funky bulls--t! ..." while performing at the D.C. Jewish Community Center. And she is celebrated for it. So much hate.
Why is the respect only supposed to go one way?

kivi says: We don't ask to be respected. I think we would settle for not being tortured and kill for being Jewish. And, of course, just left alone so we can get on with our own lives.

As for Sandra Bernhards comedy routine, I haven't seen all of this one, just the video, so I'll not comment on all of it, but what I have seen had me rolling in the aisle. She is funny. Of course, it seems that all real humor is based on the pysche's despart desire to avoid pain and sarrow. And the Divine Miss S [and M] know that and use to good effect. So, lets use the full quote: "Now you got Uncle Women, like Sarah Palin, who jumps on the s--t and points her fingers at other women. Turncoat b---h! Dont you f--kin reference Old Testament, [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]! You stay with your new Goyish crappy shiksa funky bulls--t! Dont you touch my Old Testament, you b---h! Because we have left it open for interpre-ta-tion! It is no longer taken literally! You harlot in your f--kin' cheap New Vision cheap-ass plastic glasses and your [sneering voice] hair up. A Tina Fey-Megan Mullally brokedown bulls--t moment. "

Oh, did I mention that I find the Republicans morally loathsome and I am doing all I can to recapture this Country from the crook [remember the Keating 5] and the petty minded bigot [remember the Wasilla library and the 'Jews are being judged'] and elect Obamam/Biden. Oh, when I hear a right wing politico like Limbaugh or Hannity or Beck start in on the "So much hate" diatribe, I know that a vile hour long hate blast against anyone and everyone they hate is on the way.

Secundulus · Sep 21, 2008

kivi said:
As for Sandra Bernhards comedy routine, I haven't seen all of this one, just the video, so I'll not comment on all of it, but what I have seen had me rolling in the aisle. She is funny. Of course, it seems that all real humor is based on the pysche's despart desire to avoid pain and sarrow. And the Divine Miss S [and M] know that and use to good effect. So, lets use the full quote: "Now you got Uncle Women, like Sarah Palin, who jumps on the s--t and points her fingers at other women. Turncoat b---h! Dont you f--kin reference Old Testament, [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]! You stay with your new Goyish crappy shiksa funky bulls--t! Dont you touch my Old Testament, you b---h! Because we have left it open for interpre-ta-tion! It is no longer taken literally! You harlot in your f--kin' cheap New Vision cheap-ass plastic glasses and your [sneering voice] hair up. A Tina Fey-Megan Mullally brokedown bulls--t moment. "

Is that an example of enlightened Jewish humor? If so, I understand why Mordechai feels the need to sperate himself from such trash.

Mordechai18 · Sep 21, 2008

Secundulus said:
Is that an example of enlightened Jewish humor? If so, I understand why Mordechai feels the need to sperate himself from such trash.

If it were one such performer, or one such act, it would be silly for me to be upset. But such performances and such acts are not uncommon and, even more troubling for me, not denounced as religious hate by Jews around the world who should know better. But, as kivi has shown us, and as my own family showed me for my entire life, when it comes to slamming Republicans or religious Christians, anything goes. Those lofty civil rights ideals go right out the window.

(Hint for future debates on Christian forums, kivi - at least have the good sense to preface your remarks with something like, "While of course I denounce her referring to Christian holy text as goyish, cr-ppy b--sh--..." That will allow you to at least seem consistent and respectful even if you don't really believe it.)

And to condemn a Christian for saying that Jewish suffering may be a judgment from God? Horrors! How dare any Christian say exactly what Jewish prophets say throughout the Jewish Scriptures! How dare they!

kivi, if you grew up in a Jewish home, I'd like to ask you to take the things you heard while growing up about Christians and ask yourself how you would feel if you learned that a non-Jewish childhood friend of yours said similar things about Jews in their homes, and that it was accepted within the family. When I talk with Jewish friends, we all admit how our families spoke about Christians, but when I ask other Jews about it in public, they all clam up: "MY family never said anything bad about Christians in general!"

Kivi, I hope you'll re-read this thread in a calm moment - re-read Sandra Berhnard's rant - re-read what you felt compelled to defend. And consider the fact that the only reason you felt compelled to defend such filth and such hateful garbage is the fact that the performer is Jewish and her target is an Evangelical Christian/Republican.

I see this so often, and have seen it so often for so many years, that I have had enough. I imagine the first kids who grew up listening to their parents say hateful and ignorant things about African-Americans and got sick of hearing it. Their own families probably hated them for shining a light on the hate. Their own families considered them traitors and n-----lovers. But they were right, weren't they? I'm sick of it.

America is a beautiful, noble country with some shameful dark spots on its record, including slavery and anti-semitism among others. But to treat America as though it is the equivalent of a nation which supported pogroms which murdered Jews, or to act as though people like Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin somehow make it more likely that Jews will be murdered in the streets of America is to confirm the irrational hysteria which many feel that Jews in America today display.

And to feel that rants such as those of Sandra Bernhard, or the plethora of anti-Christian/anti-religion Jewish comics/actors/commentators/etc. actually benefit Jews and make people more tolerant, is in my opinion bizarre.

Secundulus · Sep 21, 2008

Mordechai18 said:
And to feel that rants such as those of Sandra Bernhard, or the plethora of anti-Christian/anti-religion Jewish comics/actors/commentators/etc. actually benefit Jews and make people more tolerant, is in my opinion bizarre.

I would like to say that not all Jews in the USA are as insanely hateful as those on the left, although they would seem to be the majority here. Many Jews are rational and do not embrace those idiotic ideas.

My best friend in College was a Jew from New Jersey and is now a Colonel in the US Army. I had the privilege of being a pallbearer for his father and attending his funeral at the synagogue a long time ago.

Also, the radio host Dennis Prager, who I listen to often, comes to mind.

I would like nothing better than to see you convert to Christianity. However, I think that leaving your religion because leftist Jews are irrationally hateful and full of spite is not a good reason.

Theology wise, traditional Judaism is exclusive. I understand that because Christianity is exclusive also for the exact same reason (notwithstanding the fact that we differ on the identity and mission of the Messiah, Jesus).

Also, I will admit that I have never read the Talmud, so you may have reasons beyond that which I understand.

Secundulus · Sep 21, 2008

kivi said:
kivi says: We don't ask to be respected. I think we would settle for not being tortured and kill for being Jewish. And, of course, just left alone so we can get on with our own lives.

When have the Jews been tortured and persecuted in the USA? The inconvenient fact for you is that this has never happened.

Jews have been an important part of this country since the beginning. In fact, the Secretary of War and later Secretary of State for the Confederate States of America was Jew named Judah P. Benjamin. That's right, a Jew held such an important position is that part of the country which is filled with people you loath.

Please spare me your persecution complex.

Mordechai18 · Sep 21, 2008

Secundulus said:
I think that leaving your religion because leftist Jews are irrationally hateful and full of spite is not a good reason.

I'd be an idiot to leave my religion if that were the only reason, or even if that were just my main reason. That is peripheral, my friend, though something that dismays me every single day.

Secundulus · Sep 21, 2008

Mordechai18 said:
I'd be an idiot to leave my religion if that were the only reason, or even if that were just my main reason. That is peripheral, my friend, though something that dismays me every single day.

I wish you luck in your search and I will add you to my prayer list. I went through a similar period of extreme doubt in my faith not too long ago.

Mordechai18 · Sep 21, 2008

Mordechai18 · Sep 21, 2008

Secundulus · Sep 21, 2008

Mordechai18 said:
I am not experiencing extreme doubt in my faith.
I have learned things about my faith, my culture, my history, and my tribe that have wounded me deeply. What I have actually spelled out in this thread is only the tip of the iceberg.

Nevertheless, I will pray for you, just as I pray for the Muslims and others that bother posting on this forum.

RebYosef · Sep 21, 2008

Mordechai18 said:
It is alleged by Jewish tradition that Moses was given non-written laws from God on Mt. Sinai.

Given oral explanation of the Law.

It is also alleged that the Talmud contains this law.

No. That is the Mishna.

But the Talmud is mostly the accumulated Rabbinic commentary of the ages.

It contains quite a bit more then just "commentary"

If the Talmud is protected from error by God

False. No one but the most extreme Haradi teach this.

it must be true that Jews have more spiritual souls than Gentiles do

False.

and it must be true that Jesus was... er, not the Messiah, to put it politely.

The christian jesus is not mentioned in the Talmud.

RebYosef · Sep 21, 2008

Mordechai18 said:
God laughs with joy and acknowledges having been defeated by rabbis. And so we see how rabbis are viewed.

This really came as a suprise to me. To take a Midrash that literal and to ignore the blatant word plays involved and to ignore the entire methodology of Rabbinical writings to make a point is not something someone educated in Judaica does.

What ever doubts or dramatics you are going through are yours and I won't comment to that. However, do not pass yourself off as someone educated in the Jewish faith, becuase the errors contained by you in this thread betray just that.

Good luck.

Mordechai18 · Sep 21, 2008

RebYosef said:
No. That is the Mishna.

And the Mishnah is part of the Talmud.

RebYosef said:
The christian jesus is not mentioned in the Talmud.

And you admonish me for missing word play.

RebYosef · Sep 22, 2008

Mordechai18 said:
And the Mishnah is part of the Talmud.

Thats a common mistake those outside Judaism make, anything thats a Rabbinical work is lumped into "The Talmud". In Jewish discourse, you say "Gemora" for the commentary that you describe. The two are very distinct in nature and also by their authors.

Mordechai18 said:
And you admonish me for missing word play.

Yes.

Mordechai18 · Sep 22, 2008

RebYosef said:
Thats a common mistake those outside Judaism make, anything thats a Rabbinical work is lumped into "The Talmud". In Jewish discourse, you say "Gemora" for the commentary that you describe. The two are very distinct in nature and also by their authors.

My point still stands: the Mishnah and Gemara are both parts of the Talmud. The Mishnah is a subset of what is known as Talmud.

1. Jacob Neusner, in his book Understanding the Talmud, writes, "The Talmud is made up of [1] a philosophical law code, the Mishnah, completed in ca. 200 C.E. and [2] the gemara, an extensive analysis and commentary upon the law (halakhah) of the Mishnah, which reached closure in ca. 600 C.E."

2. According to the Jewish Virtual Library,
"The Mishna and the rabbinic discussions (known as the Gemara) comprise the Talmud"

3. Another Jewish site says, "The Talmud consists of the Mishnah and Gemara"

RebYosef · Sep 22, 2008

Mordechai18 said:
My point still stands

I don't see how. They only adress the issue of a basic introduction and not the discourse that one sees in a Yeshiva or University level study.

peepnklown · Sep 22, 2008

I recommend: be you, and that is it.

ChavaK · Sep 22, 2008

It is interesting, that although you don't want to be a Jew any longer, you are
still identifying your self in relationship to Judaism. By using the tag line
"Ex-Jew" under your name on your posts, your identity is still tied up with being
(or not being) a Jew.

Not so simple to get away from it, eh?

Caitlin.ann · Sep 22, 2008

Deconvert silly.

Mordechai18 · Sep 22, 2008

I don't want to be a Jew

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