The Bible, and therefore preterism, is true and correct

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Wildfire

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Ozark, thank you. I do remember your question and I did respond on that thread. But please understand that my time on this forum is usually brief, so I do not know the members well enough to remember what their responses were to me.
Now, concerning what you have written; yes, I agree with part of what you have said. The kingdom of God is within us, because we are told it does not come from observation. I happen to be someone who does not take the "rapture" as being physical; many are depending on this to happen, based on the scripture you provided, and I see that as being spiritual.
However, this world will not continue on and on, with no direction from God. That is foolish thinking; because we are told that he (God) is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. And just as there was a beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, there will be an ending, when God intercedes at his chosen and appointed time.
Jesus did not return yet; the destruction of the temple in 70AD was not the fulfillment of his prophecy. Surely, you being understanding of the carnal and the spiritual man, can see that?
Have you ever read the book of Revelation; and if so, do you not see that there will be an end to all of life in this world where we now live?
The new earth and the new Jerusalem, is promised to us by the creator himself. We are not living in that world yet. He is coming back. I hope you can try to see that, my friend.

Wildfire
 
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Wildfire, thank you. I understand what you are saying. At the risk of sounding like a post- millennialist, It does seem logical that something finite, as is the creation, cannot last forever. However, it is built to last a very very long time. Perhaps one of the other preterists can give us some insights on this.

One thing that bothers me about the pre-millenial view is that it seems to doom the church to failure. If the kingdom of God is indeed within us, do we not have everything we need to bring healing to the nations? I John 4:17 says concerning the church "...as He is so also are we in the world." Moreover, even if you think the Devil has not been destroyed, John still tells us in I John 4:4 that "...greater is He who is within you than he who is in the world." Paul, in Ephesians one and two speaks of the church being seated with Him in the heavenly places and as being above all rule and authority. Revelation one tells us that we have been made KINGS and priests through Christ. Even if you do not view these scriptures from a preterist perspective, it still does not look like the church is the underdog on this planet.

I don't see even in the final chapters of revelation that the church will ever make the world entirely Christian, but from the book as a whole I think we could make a good case that the kingdom of God will someday come to dominate the nations of the earth. Therefore, I do not see that the world is running out of control. Instead, I see that the kingdom of God is increasing (although, sometimes seemingly slowly) on the earth.

Ozark
 
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davo

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Originally posted by Mandy
2 Timothy in no way debunks the fact of the physical resurrection.

You need to go back and read my post #43 again. Let me make it a little easier to understand:

If the 1st century saints believed the resurrection to be in the same manner that you and other 21st century futurists believe i.e., a reconstituted materialistic physical bodily resurrection, out of literal graves -remember you're saying they believed as you do in a physical bodily resurrection: then how was it possible for some to be led astray after the likes of Hymenaeus and Philetus' teaching, that the resurrection had already past? IF they believed [remember, they were Christians] in a physical resurrection as you do, all someone had to do was look around and they would have said -"well where's the evidence, no open graves, I don't see any physical change etc -NOTHING'S CHANGED!" Put simply, Paul could have appealed to all this "lack of a physical resurrection" evidence -yet he and no one else then did.

And do you know why? -because Paul and the 1st century believers WERE NOT EXPECTING A PHYSICAL RESURRECTION! So, 2Tim 2:18 that you put forward to imply that the preteristic understanding of Biblical resurrection is heresy like that of Hymenaeus and Philetus, actually proves our position to be correct and and leaves you dangling by your own noose. [still confused? read it again]

Originally posted by Mandy
The resurrection hasn't happened yet, so no one has seen anything if indeed it is something that would be seen by the unredeemed...

Say what!? Now your favourite verse -"every eye shall see...," miraculously doesn't apply any more -well, how convenient. [So what -are you now denying the resurrection at the same time as the Parousia as well?] -I love the flexibilty of dispensational theology :( [and I use "theology" with reservation] -at least you're consistent. :(


Originally posted by Mandy
2 Timothy 1:10
2 Timothy was written in approx 67AD and yet, Paul wrote Jesus had abolished death! And this was before His supposed return! HIs death on the cross is what abolished death and so Revelation 21, where it says there WILL be NO MORE death, shows that it is indeed physical death that WILL BE ABOLISHED. Since Paul said through Jesus' appearing (not REAPPEARING!) through His death and resurrection, death HAD BEEN abolished.

Well let's quote it and see if as you say "it is indeed physical death WILL BE ABOLISHED":

2Tim 1:10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has [present tense] abolished death and brought [present tense] life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Seeing as this verse that Paul wrote is in the present tense logic says the death mentioned CANNOT be physical as you say, as people were still dying -it was spiritual death i.e., separation from God, it was this that Jesus rectified through the Cross and that was coming to fruition in their yet expected "Day of the Lord" -His Parousia.

Jesus said in-kind in Jn 8:51 "...if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

And again in Jn 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Looking through the distorted lense of futurism you make Jesus out to be a liar -He however spoke the truth, yet you are in gross error -not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

davo
 
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Wildfire

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Ozark, what you have written is something to sit and think about. Yes, I agree that there is strength among those who believe, as the disciples have instructed. Were their words of comfort written on our behalf, so that we may find comfort in this world and in times of tribulation? Do you remember what jesus said about the comforter, being the spirit of truth, whom this world cannot recieve? And if we <ask> him come to us, he will guide us to all truth and understanding?
No, I don't believe that satan has been released yet; in Revelation he comes out of the abyss/ bottomless pit at the appointed time--with wrath against those who keep the commandments of God (because his time is short). And after he (Satan) overcomes the two witnesses, who spoke against him during the great tribulation, then the time for peace will come. Jesus returns to the earth with the saints to overcome the beast/satan and restore peace.
We cannot do this without his help; but remember, that blessed are those who do his work, for greater is he in the kingdom of heaven. It is <good> to be persecuted, it is <good> to be ridiculed, because Jesus himself suffered all of these things. Do you see the pattern of this world in relation of the life of Jesus? We are living in a lukewarm time of the church; (church=people) there is little fear among many regarding God. He has become a joke on television, an angry song on the radio, a moneymaking oppurtunity. (remember Jesus overturning the tables in the temple-can you imagine what he would do today!)
We are told that in the last days there will be a thirst for God, a thirst for the Word of God. But in the world you will have <affliction> but BE OF GOOD CHEER, FOR I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD.

Wildfire
 
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Wildfire

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Hi Davo, the church has not been referred to in the bible as a building, but a group of people. The correct translation in greek of the word church was (assembly). Lukewarm means not hot or cold. Just blah, inbetween, driftng; kinda reminds me of those who are at (church) in a physical sense, but not spiritually.
I see a very laid back attitude in the world with Jesus Christ and Gods word. Yada, yada, yada. Who cares? There is little fear among men, with consequences of their actions or the breaking of his commandments.
This fast paced, busy world has no time for Christ. Whats has subsituted reading the bible to your children, is watching television. I am in no way condemning that, because I too watch tv with my kids, but I also make time to impress upon them, how <important> it is to have a strong relationship with God.
To me, there is nothing sacred left in this world. Everything has been drug out of the closet and there is nothing left hidden inside. What used to be blasphemous, sinful, and wrong is now acceptable and common among people.
Just my own thoughts.

Wildfire
 
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Mandy

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Originally posted by davo


You need to go back and read my post #43 again. Let me make it a little easier to understand:

If the 1st century saints believed the resurrection to be in the same manner that you and other 21st century futurists believe i.e., a reconstituted materialistic physical bodily resurrection, out of literal graves -remember you're saying they believed as you do in a physical bodily resurrection: then how was it possible for some to be led astray after the likes of Hymenaeus and Philetus' teaching, that the resurrection had already past? IF they believed [remember, they were Christians] in a physical resurrection as you do, all someone had to do was look around and they would have said -"well where's the evidence, no open graves, I don't see any physical change etc -NOTHING'S CHANGED!" Put simply, Paul could have appealed to all this "lack of a physical resurrection" evidence -yet he and no one else then did.

And do you know why? -because Paul and the 1st century believers WERE NOT EXPECTING A PHYSICAL RESURRECTION! So, 2Tim 2:18 that you put forward to imply that the preteristic understanding of Biblical resurrection is heresy like that of Hymenaeus and Philetus, actually proves our position to be correct and and leaves you dangling by your own noose. [still confused? read it again]



Say what!? Now your favourite verse -"every eye shall see...," miraculously doesn't apply any more -well, how convenient. [So what -are you now denying the resurrection at the same time as the Parousia as well?] -I love the flexibilty of dispensational theology :( [and I use "theology" with reservation] -at least you're consistent. :(




Well let's quote it and see if as you say "it is indeed physical death WILL BE ABOLISHED":

2Tim 1:10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has [present tense] abolished death and brought [present tense] life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Seeing as this verse that Paul wrote is in the present tense logic says the death mentioned CANNOT be physical as you say, as people were still dying -it was spiritual death i.e., separation from God, it was this that Jesus rectified through the Cross and that was coming to fruition in their yet expected "Day of the Lord" -His Parousia.

Jesus said in-kind in Jn 8:51 "...if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

And again in Jn 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

Looking through the distorted lense of futurism you make Jesus out to be a liar -He however spoke the truth, yet you are in gross error -not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

davo

In 2 Timothy 1:10 Paul is speaking about spiritual death, which is why it is written in the tense it is; it is very clear and that should be very clear to a preterist since the resurrection hadn't happened yet, when 2 Timothy was written. Whereas Revelation 21, is clearly speaking of physical death, since spiritual death had already been conquered at the cross for all who have and do believe.
Look at the contrast, 2 Tim says Jesus has abolished death, it is already done, whreas in Rev 21, there shall be no more death, etc, which means there is the physical death that has yet to be dealt with, since in 2 Tim, it is made clear that spiritual death has already been abolished for the redeemed.
There is no reference in the Bible as to whether the resurrection around the time of the rapture (1Thess 4), will be noticed by anyone.

This truth is very plain to see. We who are born again will never taste spiritual death, yet many of us will die a physical death and will be raised in glory.
 
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parousia70

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Originally posted by Mandy

This truth is very plain to see. We who are born again will never taste spiritual death, yet many of us will die a physical death and will be raised in glory.

All human beings have an "appointment" with physical death.

Heb 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.


Thats why It's called the resurrection of the DEAD.
 
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Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by Mandy
... in Rev 21, there shall be no more death, etc, which means there is the physical death that has yet to be dealt with, since in 2 Tim, it is made clear that spiritual death has already been abolished for the redeemed.

I'm somewhat confused. In Rev 21, are you saying that there is no more physical death? I beg to differ. If you believe that Rev 21 is the "new heavens and earth," then how do you account for physical death in the "new heavens and earth" described in Isaiah 65:17-20?
 
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Wildfire,

We tend I think to judge reality by what we can see with our eyes or by what we are personally experiencing at the time. What is happening in our "corner of the world" can even shape our eschatology. For example, Although I am originally from California, I attended collage in Texas. One of my best friends during my collage days was from New Mexico. One day I stepped out of the dorm and looked up into the most bizarre looking sky I had ever seen. Even though it was morning, it was very dark, and it had a sort of eerie green appearance. (I later found out that conditions were ripe for a tornado.) My friend who had also never seen such a thing came running up to me and said, "Don't you see! It is the end of the world!" Never mind that it was sunny 100 miles away. My friend formed his entire world view in that moment by what he could see out his own window. (Please, Wildfire, I am not talking about the moon you saw. What you saw was truly a mystery. This was not.)

I think people have judged who is prevailing the darkness or the kingdom of God by looking out the window (or looking at the TV) for a very long time. The way I understand it, in the 19th century preterism and post- millennialism were on the rise. Then came the bloodiest century ever--the twentieth. This is one reason for the rise of the "Its the end of the world!" mindset. People looked out the window said that things can't last much longer.

The "look out the window" way of judging reality can go the other way too. I live in a small town where the crime rate is so low I could probably sleep on my front porch in suit made of money (I wish I had one!) and sleep well with no fear. God is moving here, pastors are praying together. In fact a near by city has more churches per capita than any in the country. Plus, I don't just watch TV for the news. Do you realize how dramatically the kingdom of God is advancing in other parts of the world? Whole cities are coming to the Lord in many countries. In fact, more people have been saved since WWII than in the previous 19 centuries combined. From my little corner of the world, I might look out the window and say, "Ah, the kingdom is advancing, and this is a very great time to be alive. I might even say that, because of what I see, preterism must be correct!

Which view is the best to go by? NEITHER! The best thing is not to go by what we see but by what God has revealed. We as preterists believe that God has revealed in His word, Jesus, Who stands now as King over all the nations of the earth. And He has defeated sin, Satan, and death (spiritual). Moreover, God has revealed that we His church are in Him, and are thus partakers of His victory and rule. It is in this view that we stand no matter what it looks like outside. I hope this helps you understand us better.

Ozark
 
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Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by Mandy


1 Thess. 4:17

There's a problem with that verse. It's not actually speaking of rapturing living bodies immediately after the "dead in Christ" rise from Hades, but rather our souls at death (post-AD 70). Allow me to repost a section of David B. Curtis' sermon on this very subject.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

This is the verse that the physical rapture theory comes from. A little time spent looking at the Greek words should quickly dispel many false notions.

Let's start with the first word in the verses -the word "then." This is the Greek word epeita. Normally, when a sequence of events is described, the simple word eita "then" is used. Eita is best translated as "at that time" or "next". Eita is used to indicate an immediate sequence. We see this in:

John 19:26-27 (NKJV) When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then (eita) He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

This is a series of events - one immediately after the other.

But in our text, the Greek word is not eita but epeita, which is essentially the same Greek word with an "epi" prefix. This has the effect of affixing the word "after" to the word "then", and the best translation becomes "after then", "after that", or "after that time", and thereby doesn't include the idea of right after.

Let's look at some other uses of epeita to get a clearer idea of its meaning:

Galatians 1:18 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.

In this case, the word "then" involved at least three years later.

Galatians 1:21 (NKJV) Afterward (epeita) I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.

Paul probably went first to the main seaport, Caesarea, and sailed from there to Tarsus, his birthplace (Acts 9:30). He probably then went from Tarsus, in the region of Cilicia, to Syria. It was a while after he left Jerusalem that he got to Syria and Cilicia.

Galatians 2:1 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.

Epeita here involves fourteen years.

1 Corinthians 15:23 (NKJV) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward (epeita) those who are Christ's at His coming.

Epeita here is referring to a period of forty years. The idea is: "what came at some time afterwards, after that time, not at that time."

Now look at 1 Cor 15:5-8:

1 Corinthians 15:5-8 (NKJV) and that He was seen by Cephas, then (eita) by the twelve. 6 After that (epeita) He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that (epeita) He was seen by James, then (eita) by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

We see in this passage that both eita and epeita are used. In verse 15:5, we see eita, indicating that the twelve (the original apostles) saw Him immediately after Peter did, the same day. In verse 15:6, epeita is used meaning: "after that time", because the 500 didn't see Him until later. Verse 15:7, again uses epeita, meaning that some time after the 500 saw him, He appeared to James. Next, the reference is that immediately after appearing to James, He appeared to all the apostles.

The point is, that the form of the word for "then" used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the form eita, meaning: "right after", but the epeita, meaning: "after that time."

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then (after that time) we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

What would be the point of saying "the dead in Christ will rise first," if the living were to be also caught up and changed at almost the same time? Paul is saying that at the return of Christ the dead in Christ will be resurrected, after that time the living will be "caught up" with them in the clouds at their physical death.

The words "caught up" are the Greek word harpazo, it means: "to snatch away." This is where the word "rapture" comes from. But certainly being "caught up" means something different than a levitation of the physical body from earth up into the atmosphere of the sky. Remember, this being "caught up" happens some time after the second coming.

Harpazo could refer to the body being "caught up" but it could also refer to the Christian being "caught up" without the body. It is used this way in:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV) I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago; whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows; such a one was caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man; whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows; 4 how he was caught up (harpazo) into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul doesn't know whether the body was involved in this man's "snatching away." The body isn't necessary, then, in the harpazo event, or Paul wouldn't have expressed this uncertainty. We know that Paul didn't mean that living Christians would be caught up in their living, physical bodies at the second coming of Christ because this never happened. Christians were still around on the earth after the second coming, as history plainly tells us.

In the book, BEFORE JERUSALEM FELL: Dating the Book of Revelation -- An Exegetical and Historical Argument for a Pre-A.D. 70 Composition by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., Th.D., evidence is given that John was seen by Polycarp in the 90s. So, some twenty years after the parousia, John was still around.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Paul says that those who were alive at the second coming will later be caught up together with the dead who were raised, to meet the Lord in the air.

You might ask, "What does the Bible mean when it says that we shall be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air?" Does this mean we'll be physically sucked up into the sky? What does the word "air" mean? Is it in our atmosphere or the air we breath? I think that Ephesians chapter 2 gives us an idea of what air means here.

Eph 2:2: "And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."

The word "air" is an another word for heavenly or spiritual realm. Satan was always an opponent of the scheme of redemption, as we can see throughout the Bible. He was the prince of the power of the air. In Rom. 16:20, Paul says that Satan would be crushed "shortly" under their feet (remember original relevance). Jesus now has taken over that sphere and rules in the "air" with the saints since the destruction of Jerusalem. If that is the same "air" where the saints were to meet, then there is no necessity for us to believe that the rapture was to be in the physical realm.

Paul believed that the Lord would return in his lifetime. He preached strongly about the second coming, the resurrection, and judgement, but he never spoke of a physical "rapture" for living Christians.

It is not the physical body that is raptured. It is the Christian himself who is raptured as he leaves his body behind at physical death and moves into the spiritual realm. The dead believers were resurrected when Christ returned, and all other Christians would be caught up at their physical death.


2 Corinthians 5:1 (NKJV) For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


The rapture takes place at death, when we leave our earthly house and move into our spiritual house.

In looking at the related passages of what immediately followed the parousia, we find the phrases: "Gather the elect from the four winds" in Matt. 24:31; "Each in his own turn" in 1 Cor. 15:23; "We who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17; and "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on" in Rev. 14:13. These are all equivalent, and are all applicable for us today. The process of being "snatched" or "caught away from" death and Hades and being "gathered in" straight to heaven began in A.D. 70. The "rapture" deals with a passage to the heavenly realm. All believers are all snatched away when they die. Revelation 11:18 is clear in showing an ongoing condition in the new age that began at A.D. 70_ "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." This gathering began with the consummation of the kingdom, after the resurrection of the dead saints out of Hades, and continues throughout this age.

The writer of Hebrews wrote:

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV) And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment ...

We won't escape physical death, we all have an appointment with it. But when we do die physically, we are "raptured" into the heavenly realm, "And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

1 Thessalonians 4:18 (NKJV) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Our hope is not to be snatched physically off the face of the earth prior to our death. Our hope is that when we do die physically, we will be "raptured" into the heavenly realm to forever dwell in the presence of the Lord. "Therefore comfort one another with these words."
 
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davo

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1Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

"Afterward" -meanining, later-on etc is exactly the same Greek word and tense as in 1Thess 4:17 "Then". Showing that it isn't an immediate chronological event, but as has been shown above by David Curtis.

davo
 
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Mandy

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Originally posted by Mike Beidler


There's a problem with that verse. It's not actually speaking of rapturing living bodies immediately after the "dead in Christ" rise from Hades, but rather our souls at death (post-AD 70). Allow me to repost a section of David B. Curtis' sermon on this very subject.


I could provide plenty of commentaries too, to support the rapture of the bride of Christ and that the word resurrection in Scripture always refers to a bodily resurrection, and that Christ has yet to return. Would it change your mind?
 
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kern

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Originally posted by Ozarkpreterist
In fact, more people have been saved since WWII than in the previous 19 centuries combined.

I am curious where you came up with this statistic. Who keeps records on how many people have been saved in the world? And how would we get records from the 300's or 400's, for instance?

-Chris
 
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Mike Beidler

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Originally posted by Mandy

I could provide plenty of commentaries too, to support the rapture of the bride of Christ and that the word resurrection in Scripture always refers to a bodily resurrection, and that Christ has yet to return. Would it change your mind?

Before you give your evidence, I'd still like you to answer the claims of Curtis ... is it a valid interpretation based on the original Greek?

After you answer Curtis, then you can provide me Scriptural evidence linking the resurrection with the raising of the exact same body we once had. (Jesus, IMO, is the only one whose body was not to see decay. His bodily resurrection was necessary to provide proof of His power and to give the disciples the ammunition to prove they weren't simply seeing a ghost.)

I can tell you now that there is only one verse in the entire NT that contains both "resurrection" and "body." Even then, an argument for a spiritual resurrection of the soul into a brand spankin' new body having angelic/Christ-like properties can be made.

Let the fun begin. :)
 
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