Now That I Don't Believe!

Hi pathigoth,

It's nice to see you around again. I've enjoyed your comments from time to time. Let's be clear here, though, and state that not all the things on that list are part and parcel of Christianity. Some of them are just denominational values that people falsely substitute for the gospel. I join you in rejecting those items that are not part of the gospel. My God doesn't kill infants or discriminate against women either.

I was saddened to hear that you reject the ideas of the Incarnation, the Trinity, and the Resurection, though. What is it about those ideas that you now find implausible and/or distasteful? What led you not to believe in them? Also, on the whole "God is here" versus "God is present in another realm" concept, why can't he be present in both places? Is it really an "either/or" question?

Also, I notice you're not longer Lutheran and have put up an "other-church" icon. What church did you join, if it is alright to inquire?

John

Hi there!



In contrast to what you posted,



QUOTE=axigoth:


I don't believe in a literal 6-day creation.

I believe that the Word of God IS the Word of God, given to us by Divine direction, and that the Word of God is to be taken literally in every circumstance unless there is a specific reason why the text may not be taken literally.



I don't believe Adam and Eve were real people who actually existed.

I believe the Word of God when it describes the creation of Adam and in the use of the term meaning creation in the original sense, and in the formation of Eve from the body of Adam as the word to describe Eve is not a creation in the sense of origination, but in the sense of being formed. Both of these statements fit perfectly with the statement given by God that animals on this planet will follow after their own kind. If Eve were not created from Adam, but was created in the same sense as Adam, meaning in the original sense, then there would be two originals of unkind likeness, instead, we are given one original in the likeness of God and one formed from the original likeness of God.



I don't believe there was ever one main 'Great Flood'.


I believe in a literal flood account. It is supported by archaeology and the historical ancient texts.


I don't believe the story of the Tower of Babel ever took place.

I believe the biblical account concerning the Tower of Babel is not mythological, but an account that was passed down before the creation of the written word.



I don't believe we are bound to the Law of Moses.

Agreed. God gave mankind a new covenant in and through who Jesus Christ was/is and what Jesus Christ did/will do for us.



I don't believe that all of the Old Testament are now binding, or, for that matter, moral or ethical.

I believe the biblical instruction given in Romans and 2 Peter that we are to submit to the governing authority overrides the Old Testament ethical and moral codes.


I don't believe there is, or that there ever was, one 'inerrant' collection of literature.

I would disagree according to the Scriptural statements themselves.

Paul claimed his teachings were the inspiration of God (1 Cor 2:7-13, 1:37, 1 Thes 2:13). John claimed Revelation was the inspiration of God (Rev 1:2)


Paul wrote that he intended his letters to be read in the churches (Col4:16, 1 thes 5:27, 2 Thes 2:15) Peter even wrote that "These things" might remain in the churches "after his departure" (2 Peter 1:15, 3:1-2)



Paul quoted "the Scriptures" (1 Tim 5:18)..... These words "The laborer is worthy of his hire." These words are found no where in the Bible except in Matthew 10:10 and in Luke 10:7. This indicates that even at the time of Paul, the gospels of Matthew and Luke were already in distribution to the churches and accepted as Scriptures.



Peter classes Paul's letters as "other Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:15-16)



The apostles wrote extensively to the churches attempting to meet the needs of the churches. God has said He would preserve His word, and I believe that those letters which have survived are God preservation efforts and not those of "the Church" of today, but the church of believers in Christ of the first century.


I don't believe the sun ever literally stood still.

why?


I don't believe Job was a real person.

Interestingly enough, there is a location in Oman that is identified as Job's tomb.


http://www.pilotguides.com/destination_guide/middle_east_and_north_africa/arab_gulf_states/jobs_tomb.php




I don't believe in literalising Old Testament mythology.

I believe the Old Testament is to be taken literally unless there is a specific reason why it cannot be accepted in the literal sense.


I don't believe in a god who sanctions the killing of infants.

I believe in a God who is righteous and just.



I don't believe in a god who punishes people for fun, or 'allows' evil to run rampant.

Again, I believe in a God who is righteous and just...

I don't believe in a god who could stop evil but chooses not to.

Actually, there will be a day of judgment... an accountability for everyone's actions.



I don't believe in a god who is prejudiced against women, african americans, homosexuals or other minority groups.


I don't see God as prejudiced against women, the book of Exodus begins a legal battle for women's rights with the Hebrew children that wasn't present in other nations. God is a God of organization, not chaos.




I don't believe in a god who lives in the clouds or is distantly removed from reality.


Omnipresence is an attribute of God, therefore, God is everywhere present, even living within the born-again believer.



I don't believe in a god who would send any of her/his children to suffering or execution.

The God I serve is very just. He allows His creation to continue to serve the "god" of their choice in the hereafter. If you serve God in this life, you will continue to serve God in the afterlife and live in the presense of God. If you serve another "god" in this life, you don't have to worry about being in the presense of God in the afterlife.






I don't believe in a god who is inhumane, unjust or unfair.


Being just and righteous are attributes of God, that makes God a fair judge, not an inhumane judge.



I don't believe that Jesus is the incarnation of any mystical or supernatural creature.

Since Jesus performed supernatural acts, I believe he was a supernatural being.



I don't believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus or when she gave birth to him.

There's no evidence to the contrary.


I don't believe Mary was sinless either.

agreed, for all have sinned ....



I don't believe Jesus was a magician.



Agreed.


I don't believe that Jesus or his god are pro-war, ever.


When God gave the Promised Land to His Chosen People, it was already occupied. That created problems because the people who were in possession of the land were unwilling to give it to God's Chosen People simply because they said it belonged to them.




I don't believe that Jesus predicted the end of the world or a so-called 'second coming'.

Fulfilled prophecy is what differentiates the Holy Bible from other "sacred" texts.



I don't believe that Jesus or Paul ever dictated the specifics for how we are supposed to live - only governing principles.


There are many words which are used in the Bible for the meaning of "commandment", all of which are translated in English to be "commandment" or "law" but with different meanings in the ancient Hebrew and Greek text. Paul's uses many different words for "commandment' depending upon the need to instruct.



I don't believe the Jews were ever responsible for Jesus' death.


I was responsible for Jesus' death... me and my sins created a need for a blood atonement.



I don't believe Jesus was rescucitated or revived after he died.


I don't either. I believe Jesus resurrected from the dead, victorious over sin, death, and the grave. There is a difference between resurrected, resuscitated, and revived.

(dictionary.com)

res·ur·rect (r

z

-r

kt

)
v. res·ur·rect·ed, res·ur·rect·ing, res·ur·rects
v. tr.

1. To bring back to life; raise from the dead.
2. To bring back into practice, notice, or use.

v. intr.
To rise from the dead; return to life.


I don't believe Jesus floated up into the clouds and went away from the planet.

There are eyewitness accounts....


I don't believe that either heaven or hell are real places.

Time will tell...


I don't believe in the rapture.

Believing in the "rapture" isn't necessary for salvation.


I don't believe satan is an actual creature.

I believe God created angels to adminster to the needs of heaven.

I don't believe in the antichrist. I don't believe in the millennium. And I don't believe in a god-directed apocalyptic destruction of existence.



Again, fulfillment of prophecy is what differentiates the Holy Bible from other ancient texts.



Questions?




~serapha~

:paxigoth: said:

I don't believe in a literal 6-day creation. I don't believe Adam and Eve were real people who actually existed. I don't believe there was ever one main 'Great Flood'. I don't believe the story of the Tower of Babel ever took place. I don't believe we are bound to the Law of Moses. I don't believe that all of the Old Testament are now binding, or, for that matter, moral or ethical. I don't believe there is, or that there ever was, one 'inerrant' collection of literature. I don't believe the sun ever literally stood still. I don't believe Job was a real person. I don't believe in literalising Old Testament mythology. I don't believe in a god who sanctions the killing of infants. I don't believe in a god who punishes people for fun, or 'allows' evil to run rampant. I don't believe in a god who could stop evil but chooses not to. I don't believe in a god who is prejudiced against women, african americans, homosexuals or other minority groups. I don't believe in a god who lives in the clouds or is distantly removed from reality. I don't believe in a god who would send any of her/his children to suffering or execution. I don't believe in a god who is inhumane, unjust or unfair. I don't believe that Jesus is the incarnation of any mystical or supernatural creature. I don't believe Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus or when she gave birth to him. I don't believe Mary was sinless either. I don't believe Jesus was a magician. I don't believe that Jesus or his god are pro-war, ever. I don't believe that Jesus predicted the end of the world or a so-called 'second coming'. I don't believe that Jesus or Paul ever dictated the specifics for how we are supposed to live - only governing principles. I don't believe the Jews were ever responsible for Jesus' death. I don't believe Jesus was rescucitated or revived after he died. I don't believe Jesus floated up into the clouds and went away from the planet. I don't believe that either heaven or hell are real places. I don't believe in the rapture. I don't believe satan is an actual creature. I don't believe in the antichrist. I don't believe in the millennium. And I don't believe in a god-directed apocalyptic destruction of existence.

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Do you believe - since your birth you are growing and will reach a time in your life that you will no longer be called alive on earth?

i actually think that this is quite sad, have you ever had a God experience, and would you call ureself an atheist because the leader of atheism on his death bed admitted that there was a heaven and hell.

i am just confused as to what drove you to think these things.

ss4ya

there isn't a leader of atheism

how can someone lead a lack of belief

you're probably talking about prof. flew, who accepted the possibility of intelligent design, but then revoked his calims after realising he had been misinformed of current scientific theories

Well I'm just curious now...since you listed what you don't believe, care to give the tv listeners here a look into what you do believe?

Yes paxigoth, I'm curious too. Can you please turn those negative statements into positive ones? FishandBread said that at one time you had a Lutheran icon, can you share what happened?

merryjig said:

ss4ya

there isn't a leader of atheism

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What! Mom said I was the leader! You must not have gotten the memo.

merryjig said:

he grew the rest of his brain

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Guess the grain of sawdust can feel complete now.

merryjig said:

he grew the rest of his brain

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Ooooh! A militant atheist! *Pokes the strange and foreign creature with a stick*

Paxigoth, do you believe in anything? If not, I'm curious as to why you sport the Lutheran icon. Even liberal Christians believe in the Trinity, virgin birth, and Resurrection, as our Anglican brother, Fish and Bread, has shown.

*MOD HAT ON*


It has come to my attention that there have ben rule violations in this thread. Courtesy costs nothing. And I ask all of you to show courtesy at all times when posting. Remember. The person to whom you are posting is a human being.
If you want this thread to remain open. Please follow the rules.
Thankyou.

*MOD HAT OFF*

I don't particularly like to read threads that I can't answer questions in so be cool and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

:paxigoth: said:

I believe in a reality and in an existence that I can only call 'God'. I find feminine and masculine qualities in God. I believe that all creation has come out of God and is thus rooted in God. All is in God and God is in all. I believe that all creation is meant to live in relationship to God. Original blessing is the voice that calls all creation back to its creator. By choosing to do things our own way and to be selfish, we bring sin upon ourselves and the rest of creation. This puts us in a state of existential estrangement and nonbeing, where we are not who and what we were meant to be. The consequence is our own self-destruction and annhilation. Thankfully, there is another way to live. This alternative is the way of peace, the road to selflessness - the reign of God announced by Jesus. For us and for our salvation, Jesus showed us how to live and how to love - even to the point of dying on Roman's cross. Jesus was a complete person; fully human, fully divine. He differs from us in quantity, but not in quality. We are out of touch with our humanity and our divinity; and therefore Jesus is our Christ and Messiah. God's purpose and dream find fulfillment in Jesus, and we find God in Jesus. Jesus was spiritually conceived of the Holy Spirit and begotten. I believe in Jesus, therefore, as Lord and Saviour. I believe that people can (and do) still follow Jesus precisely because God raised him from the dead. And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the giver of all life, and the one who leads all who will listen to the original blessing and Christpower in us all. Listening to this voice brings salvation, ignoring it brings destruction. I believe that the gospel is inclusive for all people of all backgrounds of all religions of all ethnicities. Finally, I believe that someday God's dream will come true.

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Can you explain how you agree with some of the Bible and not other parts of it?

From where does your source of knowledge and understanding of God come?

Is it NT only...Gospels only....or what?

Shalom from Bon

:paxigoth: said:

I believe in a reality and in an existence that I can only call 'God'. I find feminine and masculine qualities in God. I believe that all creation has come out of God and is thus rooted in God. All is in God and God is in all. I believe that all creation is meant to live in relationship to God. Original blessing is the voice that calls all creation back to its creator. By choosing to do things our own way and to be selfish, we bring sin upon ourselves and the rest of creation. This puts us in a state of existential estrangement and nonbeing, where we are not who and what we were meant to be. The consequence is our own self-destruction and annhilation. Thankfully, there is another way to live. This alternative is the way of peace, the road to selflessness - the reign of God announced by Jesus. For us and for our salvation, Jesus showed us how to live and how to love - even to the point of dying on Roman's cross. Jesus was a complete person; fully human, fully divine. He differs from us in quantity, but not in quality. We are out of touch with our humanity and our divinity; and therefore Jesus is our Christ and Messiah. God's purpose and dream find fulfillment in Jesus, and we find God in Jesus. Jesus was spiritually conceived of the Holy Spirit and begotten. I believe in Jesus, therefore, as Lord and Saviour. I believe that people can (and do) still follow Jesus precisely because God raised him from the dead. And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the giver of all life, and the one who leads all who will listen to the original blessing and Christpower in us all. Listening to this voice brings salvation, ignoring it brings destruction. I believe that the gospel is inclusive for all people of all backgrounds of all religions of all ethnicities. Finally, I believe that someday God's dream will come true.

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What I am confused about is that the OP sounds like he wasn't Christian, this one sounds like he is. Others said that he changed his faith icon but now it's back. I guess that I am missing something. I am also missing the point of this post. Not to say that I haven't made posts with out meaning.