Muhammad in the Bible

Very interesting!!

As a Christian I've always wondered who Mohammad was and how he could relate to Christianity.

Was he like Issiah and Moses a prophet send after Jesus' death in order to reveal new messages or was he a misguided man who thought he had been talking to God but hadnt?

Christians could debate with each other all day over who Mohammed was. My concern for Muslims is the fact that the New Testament says "Beware of false prophets". Was this a warning about Mohammed? Or maybe Momhammed was a true prophet!!
Theres no way we'll know until death.
However all we Christians can feel (99%) sure about is that Jesus died on the cross for mankind and because of that I will personally only trust the words of the Bible.

But thanks for the interesting article my friend.

There is a nice chat here about Muhammad in the Bible! I'll send what i have and then discuss it. God Bless.


The Prophet Like unto Moses

God addressed Moses in (Deuteronomy 18:18): "will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee [Moses], and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

1. Brethren of Israelites (descendants of Abraham through Isaac) are Ishmaelites (descendants of Abraham through Ishmael). Jesus is here excluded, as he is an Israelite. Otherwise it should be written "a prophet from among yourselves."

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I've talked about that matter with many Muslim, let me point out where you are wrong...

First let us quote the verse:

Whenever Muslims seek to establish that Muhammad is foretold in the Torah, the Old Testament, they invariably refer to this verse as the one obvious prophecy in support of their claim. They argue that the prophet who was promised by God to Moses was Muhammad because:

1. The Qur'an is allegedly the Word of God and therefore, as Muhammad recited each passage that was delivered to him, he had the words of God put into his mouth in accordance with the words of this prophecy;

2. The prophet to come would be from among the brethren of the Israelites, hence the Ishmaelites, because Israel (Jacob) and Ishmael were both descended from Abraham, and the tribes who descended from the twelve sons of Ishmael are therefore "brethren" of the tribes who descended from the twelve sons of Israel. As Muhammad was the only Ishmaelite to claim prophethood in the line of the Old Testament prophets, they aver that the prophecy can only refer to him;

3. Muhammad was like Moses in so many ways that the prophecy can only refer to him.

We shall consider these claims briefly and will do so in the light of the context of the prophecy, for this is the only way that a correct interpretation of the text can be obtained. Every intelligent expositor of scripture knows that no passage can be fairly interpreted if it is isolated from its context. Therefore it is essential to quote from the whole passage in which the prophecy is found and the following two extracts are of great importance:



We shall proceed to briefly consider the three points that supposedly prove that Muhammad is the prophet referred to in the text and thereafter will, in the light of the context of the passage, discover precisely which prophet is referred to in the prophecy contained in Deuteronomy 18.18.

1. THE WORD OF GOD IN THE PROPHET'S MOUTH.



Christians do not believe that the Qur'an is the Word of God but, purely for the sake of argument, we shall proceed as if God did indeed put his words in Muhammad's mouth to discover whether this might prove that Muhammad is the prophet referred to in Deuteronomy 18.18. In our view the statement "I will put my words in his mouth" does not help to identify the prophet referred to at all. It is true of every prophet that God has put his words in his mouth. For God said to Jeremiah:


Furthermore we also read in Deuteronomy 18.18 that the prophet to follow Moses "shall speak to them all that I command him". Now we read that Jesus once said to his disciples:


A similar text which illustrates this point is found in the great prayer which Jesus prayed on the last night that he was with his disciples. He said:


In no way, therefore, can the identity of the prophet in the text of Deuteronomy 18.18 be established from the fact that God would put his words in his mouth. With every prophet who is true this is the case and the great prophet referred to in the text, who would be uniquely like Moses in a way that none of the other prophets were, must accordingly be identified from other sources.

let us go one...


2. A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN.



Muslims allege that the expression "their brethren" in Deuteronomy 18.18 means the brethren of the Israelites, hence the Ishmaelites. In this case, however, if we are truly to discover the real identity of the prophet who would be like Moses, we must consider the expression in its context.

God said, "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brethren." Of whom is God speaking when he speaks of "them" and "their"? When we go back to the first two verses of Deuteronomy 18 we find the answer:


It is abundantly clear from these two verses that "they" refers to the tribe of Levi and that "their brethren" refers to the remaining eleven tribes of Israel. This is an inescapable fact. No honest method of interpretation or consistent method of exposition can possibly allow that Deuteronomy 18.18 refers to anyone else than the tribe of Levi and the remaining tribes of Israel. Let us briefly examine the only possible exposition of the prophecy that can lead to a correct interpretation and identification of "their brethren". We need only accentuate the relevant words from Deuteronomy 18.1-2 to discover the only possible conclusion that can be drawn. The text reads:


Therefore the only logical interpretation of Deuteronomy 18.18 can be: "I will raise up for them (that is, the tribe of Levi) a prophet like you from among their brethren (that is, one of the other tribes of Israel)". Indeed throughout the Old Testament one often finds the expression "their brethren" meaning the remaining tribes of Israel as distinct from the tribe specifically referred to. Let us consider this verse as an example:


Here "their brethren" is specifically stated to be the other tribes of Israel as distinct from the tribe of Benjamin. In Deuteronomy 18.18, therefore, "their brethren" clearly means the brethren in Israel of the tribe of Levi. Again in Numbers 8.26 the tribe of Levi is commanded to minister to "their brethren", that is, the remaining tribes of Israel. In 2 Kings 24.12 the tribe of Judah is distinguished from "their brethren", once again the remaining tribes of Israel. (Further scriptures proving the point are Judges 21.22, 2 Samuel 2.26, 2 Kings 23.9, 1 Chronicles 12.32, 2 Chronicles 28.15, Nehemiah 5.1 and others).

Indeed in Deuteronomy 17.15 we read that Moses on one occasion said to the Israelites "One from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother". Only an Israelite could be appointed king of Israel - "one from among your brethren" - no foreigner, be he Ishmaelite, Edomite or whoever he may be, could be made King of Israel because he was not one of "their brethren", that is, a member of one of the tribes of Israel. At this stage, therefore, we have a fatal objection to the theory that Muhammad is foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18. He was an Ishmaelite and accordingly is automatically disqualified from being the prophet whose coming was foretold in that verse. The prophet was obviously to come from one of the tribes of Israel other than the tribe of Levi. God said he would raise up a prophet for the Levites like Moses from among "their brethren", that is, from one of the other tribes of Israel. As we intend to prove that Jesus was the prophet whose coming was foretold it will be appropriate to mention at this stage that he was descended from the tribe of Judah (Matthew 1.2, Hebrews 7.14). He is therefore ably qualified to be the prophet who would be raised up from among the brethren of the Levites.

3. A PROPHET LIKE UNTO MOSES.



The Islamic publications listed in the Bibliography to this booklet are full of comparisons between Moses and Muhammad where evidence is brought forward of certain likenesses between them. These publications also produce many differences between Jesus and Moses as the authors try to disprove that Jesus is the prophet whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18.

In his booklet "What the Bible Says About Muhummed" Mr. Deedat produces a number of similarities between Moses and Muhammad which he claims do not exist between Moses and Jesus. Most of these are meaningless, however, and only serve to show the supreme uniqueness of Jesus over against the whole human race. For example, Deedat argues that Moses and Muhammad were both born naturally of human parents and are buried on earth, whereas Jesus was born of a virgin-woman, had no earthly father, and ascended to heaven (Deedat, What the Bible Says About Muhummed", p. 7, 12). It is obvious that all men have natural parents and go back to the dust, and all Mr. Deedat is doing is to reveal certain ways in which Jesus was absolutely unique among men. This does not help to identify the prophet predicted by Moses, however.

In the publications referred to we do find occasionally more prominent likenesses between Moses and Muhammad which do need to be analysed more carefully. Three such comparisons are:

1. Moses and Muhammad became the lawgivers, military leaders, and spiritual guides of their peoples and nations;

2. Moses and Muhammad were at first rejected by their own people, fled into exile, but returned some years later to become the religious and secular leaders of their nations;

3. Moses and Muhammad made possible the immediate and successful conquests of the land of Palestine after their deaths by their followers, Joshua and Umar respectively.

At the same time it is alleged in these publications that Jesus and Moses were so different, according to Christian belief, that Jesus cannot be the prophet referred to. Such differences are these:

1. Moses was only a prophet but, according to Christian belief, Jesus is the Son of God;

2. Moses died naturally but Jesus died violently;

3. Moses was the national ruler of Israel which Jesus was not at any time during his ministry here on earth.

We are constrained to ask: do these similarities and contrasts in any way prove that Muhammad is the prophet like Moses whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18? It is the easiest of matters to show that this sort of reasoning will in no way assist us to discover the real identity of the prophet. Firstly, none of the alleged differences between Moses and Jesus are of any importance. The Bible often calls Jesus a prophet as well as the Son of God (see, for example, Matthew 13.57, 21.11, and John 4.44) and the fact that Jesus died violently is hardly relevant to the issues at stake. Many prophets were killed by the Jews for their testimonies, a fact to which both the Bible and the Qur'an bear witness, (cf. Matthew 23.31, Surah 2.91). Furthermore the Bible teaches that the Christian Church as a whole has replaced the nation of Israel in this age as the collective object of God's special favours. Likewise, whereas Moses led that nation during his life on earth, so Jesus today heads the Church of God from his throne in heaven above. In this respect, therefore, he is really like Moses.

Secondly, if we reverse the process we can show many similarities between Moses and Jesus where Muhammad at the same time can be contrasted with them. Some of these are:

1. Moses and Jesus were Israelites - Muhammad was an Ishmaelite. (This is, as we have seen, a crucial factor in really determining the identity of the prophet who was to follow Moses).

2. Moses and Jesus both left Egypt to perform God's work - Muhammad was never in Egypt. Of Moses we read: "By faith he forsook Egypt" (Hebrews 11.27). Of Jesus we read: "Out of Egypt have I called my Son" (Matthew 2.15).

3. Moses and Jesus forsook great wealth to share the poverty of their people which Muhammad did not. Of Moses we read: "He considered abuse suffered for the Christ greater wealth than all the treasures of Egypt" and that he chose "to share ill-treatment with the people of God" (Hebrews 11.25-26). Of Jesus we read: "For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich" (2 Corinthians 8.9).

So we have similarities between Moses and Jesus where Muhammad can be contrasted with them. This shows how weak the Muslim method of comparing Moses with Muhammad (while contrasting them with Jesus) is, for it works both ways. How then can we truly identify the prophet who was to be like Moses?

As there were numerous prophets down the ages, it is logical to assume that this prophet would be uniquely like Moses in a way that none of the other prophets were. Clearly the prophet to come would emulate him in the exceptional and unique characteristics of his prophethood. Indeed we would expect that God would give some indication in the prophecy of the distinguishing features of this prophet who was to be like Moses. We only have to refer to the context of the prophecy to find this striking verse which very clearly gives us an indication of the nature of the prophet to follow:


The prophet would be raised up just as God had raised Moses up as the mediator of the covenant which he gave at Horeb. The Israelites pleaded with Moses to become a mediator between them and God because they did not wish to hear God's voice face to face, and God said "They have rightly said all that they have spoken" (Deuteronomy 18.17). God henceforth raised Moses up as the mediator of the covenant between himself and Israel. We need also to consider that God spoke to Moses in a very special way as well and in the Bible we read:


The Qur'an also teaches that God spoke directly to Moses in a way in which he did not speak to other prophets (Surah 4.164). Furthermore, to confirm the great mediatorial work which Moses was to perform, God did great signs and miracles through him in the presence of all Israel. Now as God had promised that the prophet to come would be like him in this mediatorial work, we must conclude that the distinguishing features of the prophet would be these:

1. He would be the direct mediator of a covenant between God and his people;

2. He would know God face to face;

3. His office would be confirmed by great signs and wonders which he would do by the power of God in the sight of all the nation of Israel.

This conclusion is in fact clearly established by these last words in the Book of Deuteronomy:


The three distinguishing features of Moses as a prophet are clearly mentioned: he was the mediator between God and Israel, he knew the Lord face to face, and he did great signs and wonders. The prophet like him would obviously have to emulate these unique features of his prophethood. Did Muhammad possess these exceptional characteristics by which the prophet was to be recognised?

Firstly, whereas God spoke directly to Moses, so that he was a direct mediator between God and the people of Israel, the Qur'an is alleged to have come at all times from the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad and at no time did God directly communicate it to him face to face, as the Muslims themselves admit. He also did not mediate a covenant between God and the people of Israel.

Secondly, Muhammad performed no signs and wonders. Although the Hadith record some fanciful miracles, these are purely mythical, for the Qur'an very clearly says of Muhammad that he performed no signs. In Surah 6.37, when Muhammad's adversaries say "Why has no sign been sent down to him from his Lord?", Muhammad is bidden to reply merely that God could send one if he wanted to but had not done so. In the same Surah we read that Muhammad said, "I have not that for which you are impatient" (Surah 6.57), meaning signs and wonders such as Moses had. He goes on to say that if he had had them, the dispute between him and them would have been decided long ago.

Again in the same Surah Muhammad's adversaries say they will believe if signs come from God, but he only replies that God has reserved them because they would still disbelieve anyway (as indeed the Jews did with Jesus - John 12.37). Furthermore the Qur'an also says that Muhammad's adversaries in Mecca also once said to him:


The answer the Qur'an gives is much the same - they rejected the signs of Moses anyway, so why do they now expect Muhammad to perform signs? Nevertheless, in terms of the prophecy in Deuteronomy 18.18, this was a very poignant and significant observation for it plainly distinguishes between Moses and Muhammad in the very important matter of performing signs and wonders. How indeed could Muhammad possibly be the prophet whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18 if he was not granted the power to perform the kind of signs and wonders performed by Moses? In this case, therefore, he was definitely not like Moses in one of the vital, distinguishing characteristics of his prophethood. The Qur'an has its own testimony to this effect. So we find that Muhammad was not a direct mediator between God and man, nor could he do any signs and wonders to confirm his office. Deuteronomy 34.11 makes it essential that the prophet like Moses would do similar signs and wonders to those which Moses did, and as Muhammad did not, we have a second fatal objection against the theory that he is the prophet foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18. We can conclude by saying that whatever evidence the Muslims may produce in favour of their assertion, the really relevant and crucial evidence needed to prove the point is not only unfavourable in his case but in fact fatally rules out the possibility that he might indeed be the prophet of whom Moses spoke

4. JESUS - THE PROPHET LIKE UNTO MOSES.



Considering now whether Jesus is the prophet referred to, let us begin by answering a few typical objections raised by the Muslims. Firstly, if he was the Christ, they say he could not be the prophet to follow Moses, because the Jews distinguished between Elijah, the Christ, and the prophet (John 1. 19-21). The argument goes that John the Baptist is believed by the Christians to have come in the spirit of Elijah, Jesus was the Christ, and Muhammad, therefore, must have been the prophet. We have already shown, however, that it is impossible for Muhammad to be the prophet. In any even nothing conclusive can be construed from the speculations of the Jews. They once said of Jesus: "This is indeed the prophet" (John 7.40). On another occasion they said he was "one of the prophets" (Matthew 16.14), on another "a prophet" (Mark 6.15) and worse still thought of him as both Elijah (Mark 6.15) and John the Baptist himself (Matthew 16.14).

It needs to be pointed out that the Bible does not teach that Elijah, the Christ, and the prophet were to come in that order. The questions put by the Jews to John, whether he was Elijah, the Christ, or the prophet, merely expressed their own hopes and expectations of figureheads to come. In the light of their confusion, however, we can see that no serious consideration can be given to the distinctions they made between the Christ and the prophet. It is also important to note that the predictions of the prophet, etc., were made in the reverse order in the Old Testament (the prophet was promised by Moses, most of the prophecies of the coming Christ were set out in the writings of the later prophets, and the promise of the coming of Elijah only appears at the end of the book in Malachi 4.5). Furthermore no deliberate distinction between the prophet and the Christ was ever drawn in these prophecies and it is not surprising to find the Jews in one breath proclaiming that Jesus was indeed both the prophet and the Christ (John 7.40-41).

Another favourite objection is that Jesus died at the hands of the Jews and God said, in Deuteronomy 18.20, that only the self-styled prophets would die. Every prophet, however, died - many violently as the Qur'an and the Bible jointly testify - and the mere physical death of a prophet was certainly no evidence against his divine mission. God obviously did not mean that every true prophet would not die! What he meant was that a false prophet was to be put to death and would perish eternally - and all his prophecies with him. Only Judgment Day will reveal all the false prophets of the ages.

What we are ultimately concerned about is this - God gave a definite promise that a prophet would arise like Moses who would mediate another covenant and that signs would accompany this covenant to confirm its heavenly origin. The very Bible that contains the prophecy of the prophet to come confirms quite clearly that that prophet was Jesus Christ. The Apostle Peter, claiming that God had foretold the coming of Jesus Christ through all the prophets, appealed specifically to Deuteronomy 18.18 as proof that Moses had done so (Acts 3.22). Jesus himself said, "Moses wrote of me" (John 5.46) and it is difficult to find elsewhere in the five books of Moses such a direct prophecy of his advent. Peter chose Deuteronomy 18.18 as the one distinctive prophecy in all the writings of Moses of the coming of Jesus Christ into the world.

Likewise in Acts 7.37 Stephen appealed to Deuteronomy 18.18 as proof that Moses was one of those who had "announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One", Jesus, the one whom the Jews had recently betrayed and crucified.

After witnessing all the signs that Jesus had done and after taking part in the New Covenant which he had mediated face-to-face between God and his people, the early Christians knew that Jesus was the prophet whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18. They also knew that the prophecy of a prophet to come like Moses had been supplemented by God's promise to the prophet Jeremiah that he would mediate a new covenant in the days to come between himself and his people. For in speaking of this new covenant God clearly distinguished between it and the old covenant he had made with Moses and it was therefore obvious that the one who would mediate it would be the prophet whose coming Moses had foretold. God said:


"I will make a new covenant", God said, thereby confirming the promise in Deuteronomy 18 that a prophet would come to mediate between God and his people in the likeness of Moses. The promised new covenant was directly compared with the covenant God had made with Moses. The covenant would be different to that given through Moses but the prophet who would mediate it would be like him. It is therefore quite obvious that the prophet whose coming was foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18 would be the one to mediate this new covenant between God and his people. And we read: "Therefore Jesus is the mediator of a new covenant" (Hebrews 9.15). To ratify the first covenant we read that:


Just as the first covenant had therefore been ratified by the blood of a sacrificial offering, so the prophet to follow Moses would be like him and would also ratify God's new covenant with blood. And Jesus therefore said:


God's promise of the coming of a prophet like Moses who would mediate a new covenant was one of the great blessings in the days preceding the advent of Jesus Christ. Although God mediated the old covenant through Moses, the blazing fire the Israelites saw together with the tempests and other portents made them "entreat that no further messages be spoken to them. For they could not endure the order that was given" (Hebrews 12.19-20). They all broke the covenant (Jeremiah 31.31) and died in the wilderness like flies (1 Corinthians 10.5). They failed to receive the life that was promised to those who abided by the old covenant.

Therefore God promised to their descendants that he would raise up another prophet like Moses and would mediate a new covenant through him which God's people would both give heed to and obtain the promised blessings accompanying it - true knowledge of God, forgiveness of sins, power to keep God's law, and the public favour of God (Jeremiah 31.33-34). This new covenant Jesus brought in in due time.

Unlike the Israelites under the old covenant who fell by the wayside, the people of God through this new covenant have come "to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel" (Hebrews 12.23-24). This is the covenant which Jesus brought in.

Jesus therefore is the promised prophet like Moses for he mediated the new covenant between God and his people. Like Moses (and in a way in which no other prophet could compare), he also knew God face-to-face and became a direct mediator between God and men. "I know him, I come from him, and he sent me", Jesus said (John 7.29). Again he proclaimed: "No one knows the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him" (Matthew 11.27). And yet again Jesus said: "Not that anyone has ever seen the Father except him who is from God - he has seen the Father" (John 6.46). And what further evidence do we need that Jesus knew God face-to-face and is the direct mediator between him and men than these two verses: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me ... Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14.6, 14.9).

When he spoke to God face-to-face, "Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him" (Exodus 34. 29-30). When the image of the invisible God was directly revealed through the transfigured face of Jesus Christ, "his face did shine as the sun" (Matthew 17.2). No other prophet could claim such a distinction - no one else knew God face-to-face in such a way that his face shone while he communed with him.

Not only was the new covenant mediated through Jesus who knew God face-to-face as Moses had done, but he too performed great signs and wonders to confirm his mediatorial work. One of the greatest signs that Moses did was to control the sea: "Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind" (Exodus 14.21). Although other prophets had power over rivers (Joshua 3.13, 2 Kings 2.14), no other prophet emulated him in controlling the sea until Jesus came and we read that his disciples exclaimed "What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?" (Matthew 8.27). He caused a raging storm on the Sea of Galilee to cease with just three words: "Peace - be still" (Mark 4.39).

Another of the great signs that Moses did was the feeding of the Israelites with bread from heaven. When the Israelites at the time of Jesus saw him perform a similar miracle by feeding no less than five thousand people with just a few loaves of bread they were convinced that he was the promised prophet.


When they saw the sign, they said "This is the prophet". They knew well enough that the promised prophet would be recognised among other things by the performance of signs similar to those which Moses had done. When Jesus gave no indication of repeating the sign, the Israelites recalled that Moses had performed his feat for forty years unabated. So they said to Jesus, "What sign do you do that we may see and believe you?" (John 6.30), appealing to Moses' act of sustaining the lives of their forefathers in the wilderness. Jesus replied:


In every way he gave proof that he was the prophet who was to come - one to mediate a covenant like that mediated through Moses at Horeb - one who would know God face-to-face - one who would perform great signs and wonders as Moses had done. In every way the Jews were right on this one point when they said "This is really the prophet" (John 7.40).

So it is proved that Muhammad is not foretold in Deuteronomy 18.18 but rather that the prophet whose coming was foretold in that verse was Jesus Christ. We shall go on to see that if Muhammad is not foretold on the Old Testament, neither is he foretold in the New Testament.

We shall again see that Jesus Christ is the climax of all prophecy in all the revealed scriptures of God. For all the promises, revelations and blessings of God are vested in him - the fountainhead of the love and favour of God towards men.


We shall also see, even more clearly, that in the Torah and the Gospel there is only one Saviour, one man alone through whom the favour of God can be obtained. While there were many prophets in ages past - both true and false - yet for us there is only one Lord and one Saviour - Jesus Christ. Again it will be seen how deeply God wishes to impress this truth upon all men that they may believe in and follow Jesus Christ into the Kingdom of Heaven.

For all who do not heed his words or believe in him with all their hearts, there remains only a "fearful prospect of judgment" (Hebrews 10.27) when God will fulfill his warning in Deuteronomy 18.19 by requiring of them their unbelief in the Saviour he sent and he will surely dismiss them, one and all, from his presence for ever and ever.

FutureTeller, you are fighting an uphill battle. Your Qu'ran does not become defacto true by disproving Bible. Any reference you use from Bible can not be used to support your claim because, according to Qu'ran, it is corrupted. Since no one has yet shown where the corrupted parts are, you can not be guarenteed that what you quote is reliable. Thus, you can begin to see your dilemma.

Furthermore, the Bible was written before Islam was even thought of; so the burden of proof is on a Muslim to disprove what came before it, Bible. Any sane researcher would agree that the work that comes first has to be challenged by the latter - not the other way around. Otherwise, you are being disingenuous from a historical perspective.

Also, keep in mind that both books have scripture that indicates that God's word can not be changed. So, if the first book says it, then how did God make such a obvious goof? Islamic answer: Bible is corrupted. That answer will not work here.

Get the point!!!

Muhammad isn’t foretold in the Bible any more than Jesus is foretold in the Old Testament.

Heathen Dawn said:

Muhammad isn’t foretold in the Bible any more than Jesus is foretold in the Old Testament.

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Interesting observation… kinda summarizes the both arguments lol

Azad said:

... is to reveal certain ways in which Jesus was absolutely unique among men

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How can be something unique and similar to other at the same time? That’s a logical fallacy.

hmmmm...
Heathen Dawn, did you even read Azad's posts? Historicaly it is more certain that Jesus is fortold in the Old Testiment than almost any other ancient fact. How many other 'prophecies' can claim that every single facet of many very specific prophecies from different authors are confirmed 100%???????????

The best Nostradamus can come up with are vague generalisations and silly poetry, which each vaguely match 100's of historical events.

Find me a bunch of prophecies that are all very specific (and guarenteed to be made before the event they predict) that can be so strongly proved to be speaking about the same specific event, and ONLY that event.


IronEagle: I am similar to you (we are both homo-sapiens, and we are both posting on the same forum - i think that 2 huge similarities are enough to satisfy the title 'similar') and yet in many ways I am unique (like I am ME and not YOU) Find me a logical fallacy in THAT.

If Muhammad was prophecied in the bible by Moses and jesus, why would they prophecize about Muhammed, he contradicted everything they taught..lol. Simple as this to prove Muhammad is in the bible you need:

1) A Islamically altered Bible
2) Historical Proof
3) Jewish Tradition that supports this
4) Christian Tradition that supports this
5) A Non-Religious Source for confirmation
6) A Islamically altered Bible..Oops already said that.

originally posted by FutureTeller

Here you are some of the corrupted parts, and how Qur'an refers to them, to correct them!!


Here you are some verses in the Bible that speaks about God, then a comparison between the Bible and the Quran in their views to God.
Which book gives God His perfection?!

JACOB WRESTLES WITH GOD (This title is taken from the New International Version of the Bible)

[Gen. 32:22]

Jacob wrestled God who said to him, "Let me go; for the day is breaking" But Jacob said, "I will not let you go unless you bless me. And he said to him, 'What is your name? And he said "Jacob" Then the Lord said, "Your name shall be no more called Jacob but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed. Then Jacob asked him, "Tell me, I pray your name. But he said, "Why is it that you ask my name?" And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place "Pen'el" saying: For I have seen God face to face."

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That is not surprising. I have wrestled with God on several occasions. It is a spiritual confrontation. It does not mean that you oppose God. It is a test of faith that God can put upon you. It can also be a conviction that God places upon you to do something that perhaps you have exercised doubt about - having cold feet or a lack of faith.

DOES HE REGRET ?!
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[Gen. 6:6]

And the Lord was sorry that he made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. [he said]:

[Gen 6:7] "For I am sorry that I have made them."

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Believe it or not, God has emotions, feelings, desires, joyfulness, anger, and many other things. It is part of His image that we can see in ourselves too. The difference in Him is that He has perfect control over these things. In us humans, we go to excess and thus sin often.

Here God is showing His love for us. He Hates to see His prized creation take the wrong step and misuse the free will that He had to give us in order that we may freely choose to love and trust Him. He could not will us like puppets to love Him and to trust Him, you see.

FYI: the Hebrew OT (Tanach) defines grieve as hurt pain, displeasure, sorrow.
In KJV and Tanach, it has the same meaning.

DOES HE ABUSE HIMSELF ?!
[Jer. 10:18]

"For thus says the Lord, Woe is me for my hurt! my wound is grievous."

Is there a complete God who abuses Himself?! Don?t he know the right and the wrong?! So how can He lead His creatures to what is wrong and what is right?!

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If I am not mistaken, this is Jeremiah expressing his pain and sorrow of what his people were going through because of their sins. He could only watch because He knew that God had to allow this to happen. Someone may want to back me up on this one.

I think that Islam is the only religion that admits the completeness and perfection of God. I challenge anybody to give a part of Quran that proves the claims that God sleep!! Forget!! Regret!! Need to refresh!! Or abuse Himself!!

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You have a shaky premise Here. You are mistaking a humble God for an inferior, weak being. Just like a human humbles himself, that does not mean that He is weak? maybe. Humility with God is a sign of honesty, love, and sincerity. Be careful on your approach to the runway or you may crash. Perfection is not measured by action. Jesus has shown me the path to perfection (completeness). It is through Holy Spirit. That is the only way. God and only God, can impute perfection to us. But, it costs something that you or I can not give.

Here you are some example on how Bible and Quran sees God:

Bible: How long will you forget me, O Lord. [Psalm 13:1]
Quran: My Lord never errs, NOR FORGETS. [20:52]

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Too bad that you don't see that David is feeling alone. He sees his enemy is prospering and He is not. So, he is questioning God and wonders if God has forgotton about him. This is nothing unusual for a person following the True God. I have these sentiments in my life. What I find out is that God never leaves me. He allows me to be tested and uses these situations to strengthen my faith. It is when I continue acting in faith, despite not seeing any signs, that I grow spiritually. That is what God wants - spiritual growth.

In the last 2 verses of this psalm, David knows that God will save him from this situation; for He is just.

Psa 13:5 But I589 have trusted982 in thy mercy;2617 my heart3820 shall rejoice1523 in thy salvation.3444
Psa 13:6 I will sing7891 unto the LORD,3068 because3588 he hath dealt bountifully1580 with5921 me.

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Bible: AWAKE, WHY DO YOU SLEEP, O LORD ? [Psalm 4:23]
Then the Lord AWAKED AS ONE OUT OF SLEEP, and like a mighty man that shouts by reason of wine. [Psalm 4:23]

Quran: Allah! There is no god but He, the living, the Selfsubsisting Supporter of all. No slumber seizes Him nor SLEEP. [2:255]

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Surely you meant Psa 78:65. If you read context, you will realize that awake does not mean God was in a physical sleep. He was silent, inactive (sleep - figuratively) before He arose (awakened from sleep, inactivity) to action as shown in the next verse.

This verse explains why He was sleep. He was in no hurry to come to Israels aid. Why? Idol worship.

Psalm 78:58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.

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Bible: O Lord, how long shall I cry, and YOU WILL NOT HEAR? [Hab. 1:2]

Quran: Truly my Lord is he, the HEARER of prayer. [14:39]

If you pronounce the word aloud, (it is no matter) for verily He knows what is secret and what is yet more hidden. [20:7]

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Without looking at the entire scripture passage this time, I can understand the meaning. Sometimes we think God is not listenting to us because we see no evidence. God teaches us to be patient, not to worry, not to be anxious, exercise faith, and not to dwell on our circumstances, but trust in Him instead. We have Hope with God. This is a spirtual issue and not a knock on God. God delivers to His faithful, but on His time clock. It is our carnal nature that demands instant gratification here and now. If we got everything the moment that we ask, then where is faith? Where is trust? Where is understanding? Where is our spiritual growth?

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Bible: O Lord of hosts, how long will you not have mercy on Jerusalem. [Zech. 1:12]

Will the Lord castoff forever? and will he be favourable no more? IS HIS MERCY CLEAN GONE FOREVER? does his promise fail for evermore? Has God forgotten to be gracious? [Psalm 77:7]

MY HOPE IS PERISHED FROM THE LORD. [Lamen. 3:18]

Quran: O my servants who have transgressed against their souls! despair not of the MERCY of Allah: For Allah forgives all sins: for he is Oft-Forgiving most Merciful. [39:53]

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God gave warnings; so in that instance, His mercy is not forever. If you disobey God when He calls you to perform, you don't have unlimited time to respond. If you are not careful, you will be ******, condemned. See below.

Zec 1:1 In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the LORD unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying,
Zec 1:2 The LORD hath been sore displeased with your fathers.
Zec 1:3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.

As far as Psalms 77:7, you don't understand what psalms are about. The works are often used to air greivencies and normally end on an inspirational note. This is just an account of someone who is at a low point in their life. Don't you doubt things too? and question God and the world? Do you always feel on top of the world?

Lamentations is very similar to Psalms. It is a portrayal of the state of fallen Israel as seen and felt by Jeremiah and the Jews. Israel was punished because of disobedience to God. Is there any wonder why someone woud respond this way? Their confidence was dramatically shakened.
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Bible: O Lord, bow down your ear: open your eyes and see. [2King. 19:16]

Quran: Verily, Allah KNOWS the unseen of the heavens and the earth: and Allah SEES well all that you do. [49:18]

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This is the same theme. It just exposes the carnality of man when they get their just desserts for not being obedient to God.

Can you admit your dilemma here?!

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The only dilemma I have is how to educate someone who tries to disprove the Bible without knowing what they are doing. Many people try, but fail. Those who say they have disproved the Bible are pure fools; for they have not spent the time to know Jesus and do thorough, honest research.

Corruption: no one has yet been able to show what has been corrupted. The Bible still stands until they can be pointed out. Why does not the Qu'ran specifally point out the changes? It would seem to me that God owes His creation an explanition for what happened. It would seem that He would have made a revision in the original languages it occured in, or at least to the Israelites, not a new book that would further complicate matters.

Is not that how the publishers do it? They give errata sheets or a new edition showing the changes. Honestly, it is a very lame excuse to say something is wrong and not be able to pinpoint exact locations. It is not enough to find one or two corrupted parts. You must be able to show every detail; otherwise you do not have a strong case. And, that leaves your case less credible.