Christmas

[Apple Sky]

The story of Santa Claus has a dark origin in the legends of Saint Nicholas, who is said to have resurrected three boys murdered and pickled by an evil innkeeper. This gruesome tale was a part of his mythos in medieval Europe and contributed to his being associated with dark companions like Krampus or Père Fouettard, who punish naughty children. Over time, the modern, cheerful Santa Claus image emerged, largely through Clement C. Moore's poem and Thomas Nast's illustrations, which downplayed or ignored these darker origins.

And don't forget what the name 'Santa' is an anagram of.

Was Jesus really born on December 25th when the sheep were lying low ?

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Forget about Santa Claus - only a worry for people in Anglo-Saxon countries anyway; but St Nicholas is an interesting man - Bishop of Myra. He was present at the famous Council of Nicea (325 AD). There is still a St Nicholas Day on the 6th or 5th December in several countries in Europe. His remains are in Bari in Italy up to this day.

 

[David Lamb]

The story of Santa Claus has a dark origin in the legends of Saint Nicholas, who is said to have resurrected three boys murdered and pickled by an evil innkeeper. This gruesome tale was a part of his mythos in medieval Europe and contributed to his being associated with dark companions like Krampus or Père Fouettard, who punish naughty children. Over time, the modern, cheerful Santa Claus image emerged, largely through Clement C. Moore's poem and Thomas Nast's illustrations, which downplayed or ignored these darker origins.

And don't forget what the name 'Santa' is an anagram of.

Was Jesus really born on December 25th when the sheep were lying low ?

Whose words are those? They don't sound like your own.

Anyway, from what you wrote or quoted referred to the innkeeper as wicked, dark and gruesome, not Nicholas.

Just because in English "Santa" (meaning "saint") is an anagram of Satan doesn't say anything about the nature of "Santa." "Lived" is an anagram of "devil." So what?

I agree that we do not know the date of the birth of Jesus.

 

[Apple Sky]

I agree that we do not know the date of the birth of Jesus.

What ever the date was, it wasn't in December.

 

[David Lamb]

What ever the date was, it wasn't in December.

Probably not. I have heard it said that the sheep would not have been outside at night in winter

 

[Apple Sky]

Probably not. I have heard it said that the sheep would not have been outside at night in winter

The idea of December was paganism & comes from Saturnalia,

AI Overview

Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival celebrated in mid-December in honor of the god Saturn. It was a joyous, carnival-like holiday marked by feasting, gift-giving, and the temporary suspension of social order, including role reversals where masters served slaves. Originally a one-day celebration on December 17th, it was eventually expanded to last seven days, ending on December 23rd.

 

[Strong in Him]

The story of Santa Claus has a dark origin in the legends of Saint Nicholas,

Nothing "dark" about him at all.
Nicholas was an orthodox bishop who secretly gave gifts to the poor. That's probably how the whole "coming down the chimney" thing came from - no one saw him doing them.

We should all be like St Nicholas - Matthew 6:3.

And "Santa" is the Spanish for "saint".

 

[Strong in Him]

The idea of December was paganism & comes from Saturnalia,

December was originally the 10th month of the year - "Dec" means 10, as in "decimal", "decathlon" and so on.
That made October the 8th month - "Oct", "octopus", "octagonal" etc.

I understand that "July" was inserted into the calendar - named after Julius Caesar.
Not to be outdone, Augustus insisted on having a month named after him too.

 

[Strong in Him]

Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival celebrated in mid-December in honor of the god Saturn. It was a joyous, carnival-like holiday marked by feasting, gift-giving, and the temporary suspension of social order, including role reversals where masters served slaves. Originally a one-day celebration on December 17th, it was eventually expanded to last seven days, ending on December 23rd.

So therefore nothing to do with a festival on the 25th.

 

[Lost4words]

It doesnt matter what date we celebrate the birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Its the actual rejoicing in His birth that matters!!!

 

[Apple Sky]

So therefore nothing to do with a festival on the 25th.

French priest and historian Louis Duchesne (1843-1917) proposed the influential "calculation hypothesis" for why Christmas is on December 25th, suggesting it wasn't just to replace pagan festivals.

 

[Strong in Him]

French priest and historian Louis Duchesne (1843-1917) proposed the influential "calculation hypothesis" for why Christmas is on December 25th, suggesting it wasn't just to replace pagan festivals.

I thought you were arguing that Christmas came from Saturnalia?

My statement was that if Saturnalia is over by Dec 23rd, it's not connected to Christmas on the 25th.

 

[pgp_protector]

 

[The Liturgist]

The story of Santa Claus has a dark origin in the legends of Saint Nicholas, who is said to have resurrected three boys murdered and pickled by an evil innkeeper.

Be careful - its one thing to criticize certain aspects of the Santa Claus mythos, but it n the other hand, St. Nicholas is an important figure in most Christian denominations, particularly the Eastern Orthodox.

St. Nicholas of Myra was a real bishop, and Santa Claus is an amalgamation of him and St. Basil of Caesarea. St. Nicholas was particularly holy, and became the patron saint of children because he used the funds of the treasury of his diocese, of Myra to save young girls from being forced into prostitution, because at the time among the Greek speaking people the barbaric practice of dowries existed, and so in this manner St. Nicholas paid dowries from the church treasury.

St. Nicholas is one of a few saints venerated weekly by the Eastern Orthodox, along with the Blessed Virgin Mary, St. John the Baptist, the Holy Apostles, and the Holy Angels and Archangels such as St. Michael and St. Gabriel. St. Nicholas is venerated along with the Holy Apostles on Thursday.

He was also one of the 318 Holy Fathers at the Council of Nicaea.

St. Basil meanwhile used the treasury of his diocese, that of Caesarea in Cappadocia, to build the first modern hospital, and is venerated by the Eastern Orthodox as one of the Three Holy Hierarchs, along with St. Gregory the Theologian and St. John Chrysostom. These saints among other things defended the faith against the Arians, who denied the deity of Christ, and composed the primary liturgies used in the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox churches (both churches also use the older Divine Liturgy of St. Mark, and other churches also use or at one time used the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom, for example, the Syriac Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic Church. Additionally, one of the prayers in the Roman Missal, the Church of England’s Common Worship, and the ECUSA’s Book of Common Prayer, and the Lutheran Book of Worship, is based on the Egyptian version of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil (typically Eucharistic Prayer no. 4 or Eucharistic Prayer D).

 

[The Liturgist]

What ever the date was, it wasn't in December.

Indeed, because of the calendar change, it would fall on January 7th, but written using the Julian Calendar, it was December 25th.

We know this because the early church, before the Feast of the Nativity was separated from the Feast of the Baptism of Christ to combat Arianism, except in the Armenian Apostolic Church, which had no Arian problem, and continues to celebrate the two together, the Annunciation was always celebrated on March 25th, based on the Apostolic Tradition that Christ was conceived on the same day as His Resurrection. Add nine months to March 25th and you get December 25th.

 

[The Liturgist]

Probably not. I have heard it said that the sheep would not have been outside at night in winter

Bethlehem is not England; the weather might have been brisk but not dangerous.

 

[The Liturgist]

Forget about Santa Claus - only a worry for people in Anglo-Saxon countries anyway; but St Nicholas is an interesting man - Bishop of Myra. He was present at the famous Council of Nicea (325 AD). There is still a St Nicholas Day on the 6th or 5th December in several countries in Europe. His remains are in Bari in Italy up to this day.

Indeed, and we Orthodox venerate them. The feast of St. Nicholas was yesterday on the Gregorian calendar.

 

[RamiC]

The idea of December was paganism & comes from Saturnalia,

AI Overview

View attachment 373982
Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival celebrated in mid-December in honor of the god Saturn. It was a joyous, carnival-like holiday marked by feasting, gift-giving, and the temporary suspension of social order, including role reversals where masters served slaves. Originally a one-day celebration on December 17th, it was eventually expanded to last seven days, ending on December 23rd.

There is another way to account for the origins of Christmas on December 25: Strange as it may seem, the key to dating Jesus’ birth may lie in the dating of Jesus’ death at Passover. This view was first suggested to the modern world by French scholar Louis Duchesne in the early 20th century and fully developed by American Thomas Talley in more recent years.8 But they were certainly not the first to note a connection between the traditional date of Jesus’ death and his birth. How December 25 Became Christmas

 

[David Lamb]

Bethlehem is not England; the weather might have been brisk but not dangerous.

That is why I qualified what I said by the words, "I have heard it said that....." I wasn't putting it forward as a definite fact. Sorry if my post wasn't clear.

 

[The Liturgist]

That is why I qualified what I said by the words, "I have heard it said that....." I wasn't putting it forward as a definite fact. Sorry if my post wasn't clear.

Thank you for that.