Stranger Things

[RDKirk]

It reflects a decline in parenting.

No, it reflects errors on both sides.

Parents did not call for teachers to teach "sight reading" instead of phonics, for instance. We could have had the most well-behaved children, but being taught sight reading, there would still be a downtrend in literacy.

 

[Jipsah]

Today, students in USA and Australia are mostly educated (or dis-educated?) with progressive elements -- most of them can't read properly, can't spell and are poor at maths.

Then

No, it reflects errors on both sides.

Parents did not call for teachers to teach "sight reading" instead of phonics, for instance. We could have had the most well-behaved children, but being taught sight reading, there would still be a downtrend in literacy.

ok, fair play, the abandonment of phonics was moronic. But many parents (like my wife and myself), simply taught our kids to read ourselves. All our young ‘uns could read a newspaper when they entered first grade. We also read to them and stuffed the house with books. We considered raising them our primary responsibility, and it turned out quite well despite the sad level of public education.

 

[RDKirk]

ok, fair play, the abandonment of phonics was moronic. But many parents (like my wife and myself), simply taught our kids to read ourselves. All our young ‘uns could read a newspaper when they entered first grade. We also read to them and stuffed the house with books. We considered raising them our primary responsibility, and it turned out quite well despite the sad level of public education.

My grandmother, with an 8th grade education, taught her five children to read before they started school in the 1930s. Then in the 1950s, she taught me to read before I started school.

Schools today have children for 12 years--claiming to be giving them an education--and graduate them still unable to read.

And we're going to lay all the blame on the parents?

 

[Hentenza]

My grandmother, with an 8th grade education, taught her five children to read before they started school in the 1930s. Then in the 1950s, she taught me to read before I started school.

Schools today have children for 12 years--claiming to be giving them an education--and graduate them still unable to read.

And we're going to lay all the blame on the parents?

I would not lay all of the blame on the parents but children were their parents are involved in their lives and education do much better.

“If you could wave a magic wand that would improve the chances of school success for your children as well as their classmates, would you take up that challenge?

For decades, researchers have pointed to one key success factor that transcends nearly all others, such as socioeconomic status, student background or the kind of school a student attends: parental involvement.

The extent to which schools nurture positive relationships with families — and vice versa — makes all the difference, research shows. Students whose parents stay involved in school have better attendance and behavior, get better grades, demonstrate better social skills and adapt better to school.

Early childhood education is a period of learning that occurs after birth until age 5, when a child’s brain is rapidly developing. High-quality early childhood education programs can yield significant lifelong benefitsfor students, according to the National Education Association.

Children who spend their earliest years learning in a positive and productive environment are:

• less likely to repeat a grade;
• more prepared academically for later grades;
• more likely to graduate from high school; and
• higher earners in the workforce.

Family involvement in early childhood education more securely sets these students up to develop a lifelong love of learning, which researchers say is key to long-term success.”

The Role of Parental Involvement in Your Child's Education

Learn how parent involvement in childhood supports education goals and improves student success. Discover examples of parental involvement in schools.

www.aecf.org

 

[RDKirk]

I would not lay all of the blame on the parents but children were their parents are involved in their lives and education do much better.

“If you could wave a magic wand that would improve the chances of school success for your children as well as their classmates, would you take up that challenge?

For decades, researchers have pointed to one key success factor that transcends nearly all others, such as socioeconomic status, student background or the kind of school a student attends: parental involvement.

The extent to which schools nurture positive relationships with families — and vice versa — makes all the difference, research shows. Students whose parents stay involved in school have better attendance and behavior, get better grades, demonstrate better social skills and adapt better to school.

Early childhood education is a period of learning that occurs after birth until age 5, when a child’s brain is rapidly developing. High-quality early childhood education programs can yield significant lifelong benefitsfor students, according to the National Education Association.

Children who spend their earliest years learning in a positive and productive environment are:

• less likely to repeat a grade;
• more prepared academically for later grades;
• more likely to graduate from high school; and
• higher earners in the workforce.

Family involvement in early childhood education more securely sets these students up to develop a lifelong love of learning, which researchers say is key to long-term success.”

The Role of Parental Involvement in Your Child's Education

Learn how parent involvement in childhood supports education goals and improves student success. Discover examples of parental involvement in schools.

www.aecf.org

But, you know, that's never been the general circumstance in the US.

Parents in the US, in general, have never been able to help their children or provide a "positive and productive environment" for learning. That's a fairy tale, gaslighting that the education industry has spun for decades...it's never been the general case in the US. Parents have been poor, parents have had to work, parents have always been strung out in the US. The best they did was to send their children to school and insist that their kids do what their teachers told them.

It is true that since about the 80s there has been a disconnect between parents and the education system. For sure, to "insist that their kids do what their teachers told them" has been a ball that parents have dropped.

As a black man who made the transition in the 60s from segregated Southern schools with deeply caring black faculties to integrated schools with sometimes uncaring (sometimes malicious) white faculties, I can see that as a factor. But the phenomenon wasn't happening only as a result of integration. Something larger was happening across the board so that today there is very little trust between parents and teachers regardless of race.

 

[RDKirk]

What happens if the scores are poor? Do you think this will also be a tool for recruitment?

~bella

Bad ASVAB scores would be a really, really bad indicator of the effectiveness of public education.

The military has practically all the same vocations as the civilian community. A bad ASVAB score across the board would mean the student is not currently prepared for technical training in practically any technical skill even in the civilian community.

I think that's where we actually are, and I think having all students take the ASVAB would clearly identify that fact.

So, if the students who do poorly on the SAT also do poorly on the ASVAB, we would face the tough question of exactly what schools think they're doing.

 

[RDKirk]

There’s a lot of cuts planned for public assistance. Including the programs I mentioned and others related to food, housing and health care. The fallout will be ugly. Not only for minorities but others that fall outside of their ideal.

~bella

This is one of the areas that bolster my opinion that the current administration is fascist (and I'd also argue that the past administration was Marxist).

Social Darwinism is a characteristic of fascism. The fascists themselves promote social Darwinism in their own writings. It's not just that "the other" should be eliminated from society, but also "the weak."

 

[RDKirk]

Not sure what her reason is, but have you seen the kind of math kids have to do today? The process is just silly.

The nation bought green wienies in the 80s for both reading and early mathematics education.

We know about the sight reading fiasco that the education industry hasn't given up yet.

But in the 80s the "new math" concept is also a disaster.

I have to quickly point out that a change from the columnar arithmetic we learned up until the 80s to the relational arithmetic used in most of the rest of the world would have been a good thing. But of course, it's not American to do anything the rest of the world is doing (like the metric system).

So, the education industry promoted an in-house "new math" in the 80s that simply does not work for teaching children how to calculate. And they haven't let go of it yet.

 

[Hentenza]

But, you know, that's never been the general circumstance in the US.

Parents in the US, in general, have never been able to help their children or provide a "positive and productive environment" for learning. That's a fairy tale, gaslighting that the education industry has spun for decades...it's never been the general case in the US. Parents have been poor, parents have had to work, parents have always been strung out in the US. The best they did was to send their children to school and insist that their kids do what their teachers told them.

It is true that since about the 80s there has been a disconnect between parents and the education system. For sure, to "insist that their kids do what their teachers told them" has been a ball that parents have dropped.

As a black man who made the transition in the 60s from segregated Southern schools with deeply caring black faculties to integrated schools with sometimes uncaring (sometimes malicious) white faculties, I can see that as a factor. But the phenomenon wasn't happening only as a result of integration. Something larger was happening across the board so that today there is very little trust between parents and teachers regardless of race.

My memory as I was growing up in the sixties and seventies is one we’re my parents and the parents of my friends were quite involved in our educations but I grew up middle class so not indicative of how it was for the poor. As a parent I spent time with my kids helping them with their homework and reading to them every night. This in turn showed my kids the importance to be part of their kids education and they are involved just as we were. Consequently I started reading at around 4 years old, my kids started reading at about the same age, and so have my grandchildren.

My neighbor, whom I’ve known for about 20 years, taught 6th grade math in public school for 30 years. His school was in a mixed income area ranging from poor to high middle class. His major complain was that those of lower income would not prioritize their children’s education and complain the loudest that the teachers were not doing their jobs. Also their behavior would be much worse because of the lack of attention. It’s sad really.

These are just my observations and are in no way representative. I did find an interesting reading how children’s reading literacy has changed in the last 50 years and there has been advances but no where near enough. In my opinion, if the schools would spend time educating the parents on the importance of being part of their children’s education the outcomes might be better.

Reading Universe | Behind the Numbers: How Is the U.S. Doing in…

Dr. Reardon, a Prof. of Poverty and Inequality in Education at Stanford University, explains how the U.S. is doing in teacher our children how to read.

readinguniverse.org

 

[Jipsah]

Today, students in USA and Australia are mostly educated (or dis-educated?) with progressive elements -- most of them can't read properly, can't spell and are poor at maths.

If that's the case then it's up to the parents to pick up the slack. It's no use saying "Oh dear, I wish the State was doing a better job of educating my children." You have to get it done yourself. Theres no dearth of resources out there to allow the average parent to teach their chilldren all the fundamentals of reading, maths, and social studies that they're likely to get in a properly taught government school. When the kids are given a solid foundation to build on early, then it makes everything else they do later on that much easier, and the more likely they are to end up with a decent education even if the gummint scools aren't all that good.

Both my wife and myself were brought up in the old Confucian ''Learning Is Everything" viewpoint, so we we just assume that one of the obligations of child rearing is making sure the children get a proper education. It's worked out well for us/ours.

And we're going to lay all the blame on the parents?

Not all of it, but in the end our kids (and grandkids) are our kids and grandkids. Saying "woe is me, the gummint schools failed our kids so they never learned anything" doesn't cut it. Yes, the public schools suck, and they don't particularly have our kids' best interests at heart. The burden's on us, and in the end it always will be.

My grandmother, with an 8th grade education, taught her five children to read before they started school in the 1930s. Then in the 1950s, she taught me to read before I started school.

There you are, then! Your grandmother stepped up and made sure you knew as much as she could teach you. That's what I'm talking about.

Schools today have children for 12 years--claiming to be giving them an education--and graduate them still unable to read.

And that's the fallacy of public education. Like everything else the government doe, it does it half fast. Ultimately they're not responsible to anyone. In the end what the children learn, or don't, is on us. If we keep their teachers' feet to the fire, if we teach the young 'uns what we can, if we demand the kind of discipline of the kids that allows them to learn, and if we hold them to high standards and let them know in no uncertain terms that failure to do their best is unacceptable, then we've played our parts as parents. Whinging about what a lousy job the gummint schools are doing is, while true enough, of no benefit.

And we're going to lay all the blame on the parents?

Again, not all the blame. But sitting back and whinging about how the schools are failing little Johnny helps no one. We have to take responsibility for our own kids. Raising cane with our elected "representatives" is worth the doing in itself, but the reality it accomplishes almost nothing unless you have a few million people behind you.

 

[Jipsah]

We know about the sight reading fiasco that the education industry hasn't given up yet.

Yeah, teaching a (pretty much) phoneticly written language as though it was Chinese characters was less than brilliant. There was a reason why the design for written Korean (Hangul) is purely phonetic. It's just inherently easier to learn

But in the 80s the "new math" concept is also a disaster.

AFAIK, Asians all teach columnar arithmetic, although I could be wrong. But I know they emphasize the "drill and kill" method of teaching maths, where you do the various operations in various forms and levels of complexity until they're as ingrained as the alphabet. They also requite the memorization of the multiplication table and various rules of operations, and beat them into the students heads by repetition. They prove the truth of the old axioms that "practice makes perfect" and "use makes mastery". But ask any "academic" why we don't use their proven effective methods as opposed to our succession of proven ineffective methods, and they'll give you a scholarly recitation of "reasons " why the Asian Paradign Just Won't Work Here. Apparently American kids are just genetically unable to understand methods that actually work everywhere tjhey're used.

I have to quickly point out that a change from the columnar arithmetic we learned up until the 80s to the relational arithmetic used in most of the rest of the world

I've never seen that one in use. The Korean kids I've turored all seem to their ciphering the same way I was taught back in the stone age, with some minor variations. Then again I don't tutor in Maths. Too many years as an engineer rendered me unable to add 2+2 without grabbing a calculator or writing a fortran function.

 

[David Lamb]

Then

ok, fair play, the abandonment of phonics was moronic. But many parents (like my wife and myself), simply taught our kids to read ourselves. All our young ‘uns could read a newspaper when they entered first grade. We also read to them and stuffed the house with books. We considered raising them our primary responsibility, and it turned out quite well despite the sad level of public education.

Phonics as a method of teaching reading has not been abandoned here in the UK. I found this on the Government's website:

"The phonics teaching programme validation process​

By ensuring high-quality phonics teaching and improving literacy levels, the government wants to:

• give all children a solid base on which to build as they progress through school
• help them develop the habit of reading both widely and often, for both pleasure and information

In April 2021, we published the revised core criteria for effective systematic synthetic phonics teaching programmes (SSP) and launched a new process to validate those programmes. The process applied to both previously assessed programmes and new applicants.

A number of publishers completed an initial self-assessment based on these criteria, which was then reviewed by independent evaluators. After 3 rounds of evaluation, 45 SSP programmes were validated.

We are not planning an imminent future validation round, but any update will be provided on this page. Although the process has now been completed, the information provided for 2021 to 2022, including the criteria used and the guidance supplied, remains available."