Do you keep the Sabbath? (poll)

[SabbathBlessings]

The scriptures are indeed from the mouth of God but your interpretations are not. I’m not disagreeing with God, you are. This response merely continues your Strawman since no one here is disagreeing with the scriptures themselves.

I’m going to give you a new assignment since you failed on the other two. Find a verse in scripture that shows that the law was given to the Christian church.

There is no need to re-interpret what God spoke, there’s power in His word its very plain all we need to do is believe and do what He asks through love and faith.

Like I said, we have been through this too many times, its in God's hands. I am not interested in further discussion, its not fruitful, but I wish you well.

 

[Hentenza]

There is no need to re-interpret what God spoke, it’s very plain all we need to do is believe.

It’s not a matter of reinterpreting the scriptures, it a matter of interpreting them using sound hermeneutical practices which is something that has led to your demise. Both literary and historical contexts are important. You continue to use scriptures that is outside of both.

Like I said, we have been through this too many times, its in God's hands. I am not interested in further discussion, its not fruitful, but I wish you well.

So I guess you don’t have a verse that shows that the law was given to the church? Why not? After all, your argument relies on the church being given the law directly, right?

 

[Studyman]

You need to understand the Sabbath in the new covenant perspective. You still at the old covenant Sabbath understanding. Otherwise you'll miss true Sabbath Rest which is found in Jesus. Read the Galatians warnings.

If a man understands and believes EVERY Word Jesus used to define the Pharisees, he will understand that the Pharisees were not promoting God's Laws, but as the Jesus "of the Bible" taught, the Pharisees taught for doctrines the commandments of men. Truly they "Had a Law", but it wasn't God's Law. When a person accepts this undeniable Biblical Truth, Galatians and Acts 15 are seen in a different "Light".

 

[Freth]

It’s not a matter of reinterpreting the scriptures, it a matter of interpreting them using sound hermeneutical practices which is something that has led to your demise. Both literary and historical contexts are important. You continue to use scriptures that is outside of both.

So I guess you don’t have a verse that shows that the law was given to the church? Why not? After all, your argument relies on the church being given the law directly, right?

God does not change.

• Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
• Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
• Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
• James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

God's counsel is immutable (it doesn't change). It is impossible for God to lie.

• Hebrews 6:16-20 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things [His promise and His oath], in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Conclusion: If God does not change, God's counsel is immutable, and it is impossible for God to lie, all bases are covered concerning the immutable law of God, the Ten Commandments.

 

[pasifika]

If a man understands and believes EVERY Word Jesus used to define the Pharisees, he will understand that the Pharisees were not promoting God's Laws, but as the Jesus "of the Bible" taught, the Pharisees taught for doctrines the commandments of men. Truly they "Had a Law", but it wasn't God's Law. When a person accepts this undeniable Biblical Truth, Galatians and Acts 15 are seen in a different "Light".

The Pharisees we're promoting the old covenant Law.

 

[pasifika]

This addresses the New Covenant perspective

Do you keep the Sabbath? (poll)

The same c&p with the same verses that have been refuted over and over. Jesus is indeed God. Jesus did indeed create everything. Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. Jesus is perfectly capable and powerful to complete one covenant and give us another. He is perfectly...

www.christianforums.com

Do you keep the Sabbath? (poll)

This isn't the Biblical definition of rest, but I will give some alternate Scriptures for consideration for those who might be interested. Christ fulfilled all of the law Does this mean we can steal or start worshiping other gods. Not according to Jesus who said this Mat5:17 and than said...

www.christianforums.com

Do you keep the Sabbath? (poll)

This isn't the Biblical definition of rest, but I will give some alternate Scriptures for consideration for those who might be interested. Christ fulfilled all of the law Does this mean we can steal or start worshiping other gods. Not according to Jesus who said this Mat5:17 and than said...

www.christianforums.com

Those are your own words which have more errors than Truth.
I'm sorry to say it but I hope you'll see the light through the Gospel.

 

[pasifika]

God does not change.

• Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
• Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
• Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
• James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

God's counsel is immutable (it doesn't change). It is impossible for God to lie.

• Hebrews 6:16-20 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things [His promise and His oath], in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Conclusion: If God does not change, God's counsel is immutable, and it is impossible for God to lie, all bases are covered concerning the immutable law of God, the Ten Commandments.

Sure God doesn't change. The Law was "added later" to Scriptures because of Sin. Galatians 3

 

[Servus]

In that He says, “A new covenant” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13

 

[linux.poet]

The pro-Sabbath arguments are not quite so easily killed off with contempt. While I’m not about to throw out the wealth of Protestant Scholarship from the Dallas Theological Seminary that states that:

1. Christians are not under the Law but under grace and have no obligation to keep it.
2. References to Law in the New Testament refer to the whole Law, not just the 10 commandments
3. Christians follow Christ and His teachings, for we are Christians, and not necessarily the Law of Moses. We also follow Paul’s guidance given by the Holy Spirit for how Christ’s church should be run.

I also think we need to understand the historical context of how this consensus came to be, because this consensus is being pitted against two other historical consensuses of scholars: the Millerites, who deviated from the Protestant consensus to venerate the 10 commandments above the rest of the law, and the Sons of Zadok, who believe all Christians are Jews who are obligated to keep the entire Torah.

The last position I’m not comfortable with at all, as it seems to turn the entire Book of Acts (especially Peter’s vision and the letter to the churches) and the Book of Galatians into sheets of paper. But it is a consensus of scholars. One is not going to write off entire groups of people without reading their writings and evaluating the historical context of how they arrived at their conclusions. The people who believe in these concensuses are not going to change their ways just because they are disagreed with and “rah Dallas Theological Seminary is smarter than you”. The Zadokians will likely claim their Scriptural commission as authority for their viewpoint and view your deference to Protestant Team Texas as disrespect, whereas the Millerites mostly agree with you and will continue debating minor points.

Referring back to the Scripture is actually useless because these consensuses of scholars all interpret the same verses differently, and in the case of the Zadokians, even translate them differently. In my view, this declaration of victory is premature. The Protestant consensus seems to fit American culture a little too well for my taste, seeming to gerrymander theology to fit American sensibilities in a form of historical boogie dancing. Dodge the Mosaic law, dodge keeping the Sabbath, accept the idea that the Christians are part of the true Israel, throw in some premillennial Eschatology to sell some Left Behind movies, and we got some American Christianity that appeals to the masses. Oh, yeah!

I have the writings of the Sons of Zadok on my theological reading list to get to, though it might take me awhile because it might help me to study Hebrew along with their views.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The pro-Sabbath arguments are not quite so easily killed off with contempt. While I’m not about to throw out the wealth of Protestant Scholarship from the Dallas Theological Seminary that states that:

Hi Linux,

Just to keep in mind, the majority thought the scholars of Jesus day, the Pharisees were following the oracles of God, but Jesus condemned them for placing their own man-made laws above the commandments of God quoting from The Ten Commandments. You can see this teaching plainly from Jesus Mark7:7-13 Mat 15:1-14

1. Christians are not under the Law but under grace and have no obligation to keep it.

I do not believe that is what under the law means, that we can sin now and break God’s laws, which is the definition of sin 1John3:4 James2:11 Rom7:7 Mat5:19-30 and anything that is not of faith Rom 14:23. Like the 9 commandments, when God clearly wrote Ten Deut4:13 Exo34:28. Forgetting the only commandment that ironically God said Remember.

Under the law means under the condemnation of the law being guilty before God as a sinner. If not, repenting from sin (turning and forsaking Pro28:13) walking in Christ which means walking as Christ did for our example through the power of His Spirit.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

The whole world is under the law and guilty before God unless one has a conversion in Christ

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin (breaking God's laws) that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If we are in Christ there is no condemnation Rom8:1-4 but Paul makes abundantly clear those who do not subject themselves to the law of God is not in Him Rom8:7-8 those walking in the Spirit are keeping God’s commandments John14:15-18 John15:10 the same ones Jesus kept 1John2:6

2. References to Law in the New Testament refer to the whole Law, not just the 10 commandments

The NT talks about a lot of different laws. The law that is perfect Psa19:7 cannot be the same law that is contrary and against Col2:14KJV. The law that defines sin (1John3:4 James2:11 Rom7:7 Mat5:19-30) cannot be the same law that was added because of sin (animal sacrifices). Paul speaks of many different laws, that is what gets people confused trying to apply something that is holy just and good Rom 7:12 as being the law that ended at the cross when Jesus said there is a law not a jot or tittle can pass from and quotes from the Law He speaks of verbatim. Mat5:18-30. Jesus cannot lie- reconcile everything to what Jesus said plainly.

The issue, people do not seem to understand the OT and the difference between the Law of God and the law of Moses and the purpose of each of these separate sets of laws. God added no more to the Ten Commandments, it is a unit of Ten written on Stone by God for its eternal nature. If everyone was keeping the Ten Commandments the way Jesus explained (magnified Isa42:21) Mat5:19-30 there would be no more sin in the world, just peace, harmony and righteousness. Isa48:18

The Scripture explains these different laws, most with a thus saith the Lord, but people choose not to believe, mainly because there is one law they don't want to keep under any circumstances that deals with our time. Its the one that has been attacked for a long time in different angles because it reveals the God we are to worship, our Creator Rev14:7 Exo20:11 the only God who can sanctify us or a day. Gen2:3 Exo20:11 Eze20:12. There is a real spiritual war where the devil is trying to be like god and has hijacked this world. Through this power changed God's times and laws as warned Dan7:25. He sits on the mount of the congregation (God's church) Isaiah 14:12-14 so of course he would counterfeit everything God blessed, sanctified and made holy. The sides of the North is God's sanctuary where the earthy sanctuary the bread in the Holy Place (representing the word of God) was replaced every Sabbath, this is where the devil says he sits now, on the sides of the north overlooking God's church replacing the oracles of God, with man-made laws and traditions Dan7:25 that competes with the God of Creation Exo20:8-11. The devil works with people and institutions and gives them power Rev13:2 just as God does but God can't lie and the devil does not fight fair. The Word of God is our shield Pro30:5 Psa119:105 going away from there is danger Isa8:20

3. Christians follow Christ and His teachings, for we are Christians, and not necessarily the Law of Moses. We also follow Paul’s guidance

I love how people say this but than not apply it to the life of Jesus of what He taught and what He did. If they did, the Sunday vs Sabbath debate would be mute.

Also, I would love to see the Scripture where Moses was at Creation when the Sabbath was created according to God made for humanity the word Jesus used in Greek, the Hebrew word means Adam Mark2:27

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

In the Ten Commandments where is the name of Moses? I only see the name of God. This truly cannot be more plain. God wrote God spoke, God placed His Law inside ark, claimed them as His commandments. If we can't believe God's own plain Testimony Exo31:18 I am going to be honest I do not see the point of the Bible. The entire Bible is about the testimony of God through His prophets and apostles John5:39 but yet when it comes to God's own personal Testimony written and spoken by God, people do not believe. God is the same God in the OT as He is in the NT- He said He does not change. I think it comes down to believing God at His very own words. There has to be foundations in the Bible to reconcile the rest to, why not God's own written and spoken Testimony Exo31:18 Deut4:13 that He promised He would not alter. Psa89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat5:18-30

Referring back to the Scripture is actually useless because these consensuses of scholars all interpret the same verses differently, and in the case of the Zadokians, even translate them differently. In my view, this declaration of victory is premature. The Protestant consensus seems to fit American culture a little too well for my taste, seeming to gerrymander theology to fit American sensibilities in a form of historical boogie dancing. Dodge the Mosaic law, dodge keeping the Sabbath, accept the idea that the Christians are part of the true Israel, throw in some premillennial Eschatology to sell some Left Behind movies, and we got some American Christianity that appeals to the masses. Oh, yeah!

We can find Truth in God’s Word- most of the Scriptures are plain, the Scriptures of Jesus are plain, the only one we are warned about in Scripture that is hard to understand that people twist to their own destruction is Paul. Paul is the one people use to countermand Jesus. Paul came after Jesus ratified His covenant (the law of stone -Ten Commandments went from tables of stone to tables of the heart in the NC 2Cor3:3 Heb8:10- ratified at the Cross) and their teachings that Paul did away with God’s law when Paul over and over again said to keep God’s commandments quoting directly from the Ten Commandments. We should be reconciling Paul's teachings to Jesus not Jesus to misunderstood Paul. If we did that, there would be a whole lot less confusion. Paul cannot save us, he even said he was a servant to God. He was commissioned to spread the gospel, not lead people to their destruction, by not being subject to the law of God making one an a sinner Rom7:7 and enemy to God and left outside the Kingdom of God Rom8:7-8 1 John2:3-4 Mat7:21-23 Rev22:14-15 James2:11-12 etc. We can find Truth to God's Word if we want it and we are told plainly in three basic principles what Truth is.


Jesus is Truth John 14:6
All His commandments are Truth Psa119:151
His Word is Truth John17:17

We need all three and only the Truth sets us free.


We are in end times, I would stick with what the Bible says and study and read it ourselves and put less emphasis on what scholars or people say. I mean really prayerfully read and study as ask for the Holy Spirit to guide us, we can find Truth.

Sadly, we have too many teachers and not enough listeners Heb3:7-19


2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables

 

[DamianWarS]

Jesus also said we can do evil on the Sabbath Mar3:4 and He said that means defiling or not keeping it. Neh13:17. We also need to understand the context of this passage, Jesus never said doing good is the only way we are to keep the Sabbath, this was just part of His teaching in correcting the Pharisees for claiming it was sin to help people in need that were sick as they would rather see someone suffer, than being able to help them. This was the context of this teaching, no where did Jesus ever state doing good on the Sabbath deletes the moral obligation of keeping the 4th commandment the way He gave it. Jesus kept the Sabbath as a holy convocation Luke4:16 just as He said Lev23:3 but it was never a sin to help people who are sick on the Sabbath.

In Mt 12:12 Jesus shows us goodness is a superior way to keep the sabbath and is always lawful. His immediate example is regarding pulling sheep out of pits. Depending on the sheep or depending on the pit, this may be a skilful shepherd's crook maneuver, or it may be a laborious event involving several people. But it's not the work that Jesus scrutinizes, rather the act of goodness and regarding it as universally lawful. Sheep and pits are also a strong hint towards a spiritual application not of rescuing physical sheep trapped in physical pits, but of rescuing the spiritually. This transforms what would otherwise be seen as menial work into purposeful mission where the physical action need not be scrutinized.

If we do physical labour to aid in the distress of something (physically or spiritually), then whatever amount of pushing, pulling, lifting, sweating, etc... we do is redeemed by the act of goodness, thus the laborious action inherits the qualitative morality of the goodness. If said "goodness" is not actually good, then no goodness extends to the laborious action. It only works when we are actually doing good. So in case you think I'm trying to erase the sabbath through arbitrary labels, I will be clear that it is only the goodness that Christ shows us that qualifies as lawful.

What confuses me is why spend so much time debating an application of the letter when Christ shows us a better way. Should we not be spending more time in discussion, study and application of this better way? How can we do this goodness Christ speaks of? We already know it's lawful but is this also not a far more noble goal?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In Mt 12:12 Jesus shows us goodness is a superior way to keep the sabbath and is always lawful.

Not in the context of what He said, helping others in need, never was a sin, not applying to what Jesus said clearly we can do evil on the Sabbath Mark3:4 which God said is profaning the Sabbath Neh13:17 Isa56:2 I do not believe this is what Jesus had in mind. Jesus never said helping others in need is now the only way we keep the Sabbath in words or in actions. Luke4:16 One would have to add that to the words of Jesus, "it is a superior way to keep the Sabbath" when Jesus clearly never stated this or start applying it to outside the context of His teaching. I personally would not add to what Jesus said, but that's me.

He plainly said man is to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God Mat4:4 so not deleting God's plain words on how to keep the Sabbath day holy. One of God's personally written and spoken commandments.

What confuses me is why spend so much time debating this application of the letter when Christ shows us a better way. Should we not be spending more time in discussion, study and application of this better way? How can we do this ss Christ speaks of? Is this not a far more noble goal?

One could also argue, why spend so much time not letting God be God who literally came down from heaven and wrote out His commandments and how we should keep them. There is no NT Scripture that says anything different. It tells us if we rest in Him, we also ceased from our works just as God did on the seventh day God spoke of the seventh day in this way pointing right back to the 4th commandment Heb4:4 Exo 20:1 Exo20:8-11 because there is no greater Authority than God in the OT or NT. Same God, same law of God, just applied to the heart right where sin begins so we keep His word and be part of us, if we do not rebel, which Jesus uses interchangeably the word of God, with the law of God, quoting from the Ten Commandments. Mar7:7-13 Heb8:10 2 Cor3:3

 

[HIM]

Is the day that God set apart for Israel to rest. He did not set Saturday apart for the church to rest. The law was never given to the church. Historical context is important.

Why is it that God didn't reveal the seventh-day Sabbath command to any other nation? There is no historical indication that the Aztecs, the Aborigines, the Asians, the Celts, and all others were ever instructed to observe rituals given to Israel. Could it be that the seventh-day Sabbath was only for Israel???? I believe we have scriptural evidence that it was only for Old Covenant Israel.

Conumdrum, The seven-day cycle with the Sabbath being given at the end of the Sixth day and was given to the Israelite people somewhere close to the Red Sea. When man decided to place an imaginary line North and South in the Pacific Ocean (IDL), the weekly cycle begins there and ends there. At that time, the Jews, who are the keepers of the Sabbath, had to face a decision to either continue with the cycle given by God or change it according to the IDL. Had they gone with the original time, the Sabbath would be occurring now on a workday. Think about it.

It is integrated into how we were made from the very beginning in the Garden of Eden.
Our bodies have a natural 7-day rest cycle. This natural 7-day rest cycle is bound up in all of biology. Almost, if not everything that has a body, from insects to fish to mammals, has a natural built in, 7-day cycle. It's in our genetics and is called the “Circaseptan rhythm”.
According to the field of chronobiology, almost, if not all life operates on this cycle, and the biological need for rest. Despite being exposed to different environmental and social factors, these rhythms continue to persist, indicating that it may be inherent in origin. iIn other words We need rest every 7th day regardless of our environment.
It is interesting that almost all, if not creation that has a body has this Circaseptan rhythm and on the 7th day God rested and WAS refreshed. Couple that with the fact that He did so is the reason why he reminded us of ALL the moral instructions and included the rest on the seventh day, since we are made in His image and likeness. IT IS THE BEST TIME TO DO SO. But Not only us, but the very creatures, livestock to which we have taken under our care are to do so, that they have rest and be refreshed at the best possible time that is given in relation to the genetic rhythm in all that God gave a body. Despite being exposed to different environmental and social factors, as was said, these rhythms persist, which indicate that it is inherent in origin. And Being made in God's image likeness show us that it is inherent. And when we fell away in Eden is why God reminded us of the Sabbath and taught us to keep it, to protect us and creation from harm and live to our full potential. Incidentally, the busy Beaver and, Bee and various species of birds have been observed in this cessation from work on Saturday. Which is a powerful testimony also in respect to the 7th day being the day of rest.
If we would define moral instruction we would say that these instructions are that which keep us and society from harm.
The following is an excerpt from a study found at the National Library of Medicine.
What is the significance of the 7 d activity/rest cycle, i.e. week, storied in the Book of Genesis and adopted by the Hebrews and thereafter the residents of nearby Mediterranean countries and ultimately the world? Why do humans require 1 d off per 7 d span? Do 7 d rhythms bestow functional advantage to organisms? Is the magic ascribed to the number 7 of relevance? We hypothesize the 7 d time structure of human beings is endogenous in origin - a hypothesis that is affirmed by a wide array of evidence - and synchronized by sociocultural factors linked to the Saturday (Hebrews) or Sunday (Christian) holy day of rest. We also hypothesize they are representative, at least in part, of the biological requirement for rest and repair 1 d each 7 d, just as the circadian time structure is representative, in part, of the biological need for rest and repair each 24 h. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27830946/
When our mind is already made up and we think we know something, what is possibility of it being changed?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Happy Sabbath all and God bless!

 

[DamianWarS]

He plainly said man is to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God Mat4:4 so not deleting God's plain words on how to keep the Sabbath day holy. One of God's personally written and spoken commandments.

In Gen 17 God speaks plainly and unambiguously about circumcision, he affirms this value with Moses, and even Christ was circumsized. Yet I feel your direction for circumcision is a different direct than that of Sabbath but don't both proceeds out of the mouth of God? It seems in practice you're reinterpreting Mat 4:4 to say that we are to live by every word of 10 commandments, and other things that predeeds out of the mouth of God, even everlasting signs of covenant agreements are not valued.

Do not SDA keep the diatary systems of the law justified as implicit in the first commandment? Can I not just include circumcision and also call it implicit in 1st commandment too? At what point does this become a post-biblical tradition or what level of post-bibliclal revelation is needed to know which are the true words that proceed out of the mouth of God and which ones we can sweep under the rug?

 

[Studyman]

The Pharisees we're promoting the old covenant Law.

That is a popular teaching promoted by this world's religious system. But in my studies, the Jesus "of the Bible" said more to define the religion of the Pharisees that anyone in the New Testament. Can you show me even one verse where Jesus taught men that the Pharisees were promoting God's Laws given to Moses? I mean, they were promoting "some" of God's Laws. Even satan promotes "some" of God's Laws.

Matt. 23: 23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachi, all teach that the father's of the Pharisees rejected God's Laws, not that they promoted them. Who then, if not Jesus, or Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, or Malachi, is teaching you that the Pharisees were "promoting" God's Laws?

 

[HIM]

Happy Sabbath all and God bless!

Blessings to you also!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In Gen 17 God speaks plainly and unambiguously about circumcision, he affirms this value with Moses, and even Christ was circumsized. Yet I feel your direction for circumcision is a different direct than that of Sabbath but don't both proceeds out of the mouth of God? It seems in practice you're reinterpreting Mat 4:4 to say that we are to live by every word of 10 commandments, and other things that predeeds out of the mouth of God, even everlasting signs of covenant agreements are not valued.

Do not SDA keep the diatary systems of the law justified as implicit in the first commandment? Can I not just include circumcision and also call it implicit in 1st commandment too? At what point does this become a post-biblical tradition or what level of post-bibliclal revelation is needed to know which are the true words that proceed out of the mouth of God and which ones we can sweep under the rug?

The verses we were discussing was not about circumcision, but I see why you changed the subject. Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments and served a different purpose which the Bible discusses clearly. Circumcision was never a replacement for God's commandments or in the same category 1Cor7:19. However, if I had a son he would be circumcised, but know it could not save me or my son. That was never the role.

Circumcision was never a means of salvation again served a different purpose that would take a huge Bible study to understand. I could go through if I thought it would make a difference, but my guess from previous discussions it would not. This thread is not about circumcision, but the Sabbath, I would suggest creating a new thread if you wish to take the discussion in that direction.

God clearly spelled out the clean and unclean foods. Lev11, but it was never in God's original plan at Creation before sin. He said eating unclean foods is an abomination to Him, that's strong words. He never took that back Isa66:17. Eating something man was not supposed to is what got us in this whole mess in the first place. Obeying the other spirit over obeying the God of Creation.

 

[BobRyan]

Do not SDA keep the diatary systems of the law justified as implicit in the first commandment?

Not as implicit in the first commandment but rather as explicit in Lev 11.
Acts 10 Peter affirms the point that it is still followed at the time of his vision about Cornelius
In Gen 7 it is fully followed at the time of the flood.

In Is 66 it is still referenced at the coming of Christ.

Can I not just include circumcision

Circumcision was never given to all mankind in Gen, or any part of the OT and is explicitly stated as not required for gentiles in Acts 15
So while it is a good health practice there is no moral obligation for it on gentiles.

 

[Studyman]

The pro-Sabbath arguments are not quite so easily killed off with contempt. While I’m not about to throw out the wealth of Protestant Scholarship from the Dallas Theological Seminary that states that:

I'm curious, as a person who avoids this world's Gamaliel's and religious schools, choosing instead to study the Oracles of God HE delivered into my own home, where does the tradition come from of creating religious schools to promote one religious philosophy over another? I mean, the JW have their Seminaries, SDA has theirs, Mormon's have theirs, Islam has theirs. Where is this tradition promoted by the Lord's Christ of His Father in the Holy Scriptures?

If I may humbly share with you my understanding of this tradition as practiced by the Pharisees, Gamaliel was the popular theologian in Paul's Time. He promoted the teaching of the Pharisees which consisted of centuries of theologians study and research into the Septuagint translation that Jesus often quoted from.

And yet these schools produced preachers of a religious sect that " Full well rejected the commandment of God, that they may keep their own tradition." That produced "hypocrites", and a people who draweth nigh unto God with their mouth, and honoureth God with their lips; but their heart is far from God. A people worshipped God in Vain, "teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" Not God!

These great religious men who ruled Solomon's Temple in the city of David for years, persecuted God's Church, killed the Prophets and murdered their own Messiah based on the teaching of the religious schools of their time.

While Zacharias, John the Baptist, Simeon and Anna, who clearly were not indoctrinated by these religious teachings, not only knew who Jesus was before HE was even born, but knew His Purpose and waited for Him for and relied on Him for the remission of their sins.

Doesn't Jesus, and the Prophets God sent before Him, warn about men who "Profess to know God"?

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision "of their own heart", and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

Anyway, I mean no malice here, it just seems important to find the source of the traditions promoted by this world's religions that exist in the world God placed us in. I'm interested in your thoughts about this specific tradition.