What is the meaning of Total Depravity?

[fhansen]

Was there the Law's curse of death on Cain's murder?

He was already dead; that's why he murdered. All men died the moment Adam & Eve ate of the fruit. That explains Rom 5:14:
"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses."

 

[Clare73]

He was already dead; that's why he murdered. All men died the moment Adam & Eve ate of the fruit. That explains Rom 5:14:
"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses."

So Cain was a dead body walking?

That's a new one. . .

Is that your reconciliation of human death with no cause for human death because there was no Law to sin against?

Death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23).
Where there is no law, there is no sin (Ro 4:15) and, therefore, no death.
There was no law between Adam and Moses, and they all died anyway (Ro 5:13-14).
Of what sin did they die?
They died of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19). . .which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[fhansen]

So Cain was a dead body walking?

Exactly, that's why a body walking must be born again.

That's a new one. . .

Well, not to Christ in His conversation with Nicodemus.

Is that your reconciliation of human death with no cause for human death because there was no Law to sin against?

Again,
"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses."

So, now, why would that be?

 

[Clare73]

Exactly, that's why a body walking must be born again.

The body is not born again.
Regeneration (rebirth) is of one's spirit, from eternal death to eternal life by the sovereign will (as unaccounable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

Well, not to Christ in His conversation with Nicodemus.

As a Catholic, your understanding of material vs. spiritual in Jn 3:3-8. should be as least as good as that of a Protestant.
"Material" relates to matters of one's physical body, "spiritual" refers to matters of the Holy Spirit and also to one's own spirit.

Again,
"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses."

So, now, why would that be?

Because of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16) to all those of Adam (Ro 5:18-19). . .and which imputation was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ to all those of Christ (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 5:18-19, Php 3:9).

 

[fhansen]

As a Catholic, your understanding of material vs. spiritual in Jn 3:3-8. should be as least as good as that of a Protestant.
"Material" relates to matters of one's physical body, "spiritual" refers to matters of the Holy Spirit and also to one's own spirit.

And both were obtained by Adam at the Fall.
"of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If we don't unite with and remain in Him we wither and die; we have no life in us. Adam killed man by his disobedience, his refusal to acknowledge God as God. We all died with Adam. And this is why we don't even know God at birth, and why knowledge of God is essentail to having eternal life.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3.

Adam alienated man from God, and Jesus reconciles and restores that relationship and that is precisely where your justice or righteousness lies within that union.

 

[Clare73]

And both were obtained by Adam at the Fall.
"of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. If we don't unite with and remain in Him we wither and die; we have no life in us. Adam killed man by his disobedience, his refusal to acknowledge God as God. We all died with Adam.

Then how do you explain all the living bodies walking around?

 

[Clare73]

And both were obtained by Adam at the Fall.
"of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Which it took 930 years for his body to do.

The Hebrew is: "Dying, you shall die."

His spirit died (lost eternal life) and his body died years later.

 

[fhansen]

Then how do you explain all the living bodies walking around?

They may think they're alive but apart from Christ they are not. Do you think this world is the one God originally intended for man? Do you think the sin and evil that we experience here are the best God can do? Is that how a truly alive man acts?

How and why must a man be born again?

Which it took 930 years for his body to do.

And that's the point. Adam died immediately by his disobedience, as God said he would.

 

[Clare73]

They may think they're alive but apart from Christ they are not.

I'm too grounded to buy the notion that Christ-denying Jews are not physically alive.

Do you think this world is the one God originally intended for man? Do you think the sin and evil that we experience here are the best God can do?

I think the whole "schtick" is the sovereign God's (Da 4:35) plan (Ro 9:22-24), down to the last detail.

Is that how a truly alive man acts?

How and why must a man be born again?

Is he born again with the same color hair and eyes as before?

And that's the point. Adam died immediately by his disobedience.

And yet he sired a family after that. . .how does that work?

 

[fhansen]

Which it took 930 years for his body to do.

The Hebrew is: "Dying, you shall die."

His spirit died (lost eternal life) and his body died years later.

And, as God said, the day he ate from the tree he would die. And he did. God did not lie, while the serpent did. Both physical and spiritual death parallel each other. So physical mortality entered man's world on that day as well.

If we we're apart from God we are dead, regardless. And if we're with him we live, regardless.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; Matt 11:25

 

[Clare73]

And, as God said, the day he ate from the tree he would die. And he did. God did not lie, while the serpent did. Both physical and spiritual death parallel each other. So physical mortality entered man's world on that day as well.

If we we're apart from God we are dead, regardless. And if we're with him we live, regardless.

The NT vocabulary is more precise, distinguishing between spiritual life and physical life,
positing possession of one (physical life) without the other (spiritual life), which absence thereof is spiritual death, but not physical death.

So the human body can be alive while the human spirit is dead,
and the human spirit is alive while the body is dead (2 Co 5:1-9).

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; Matt 11:25

 

[fhansen]

So the human body can be alive while the human spirit is dead,
and the human spirit is alive while the body is dead (2 Co 5:1-9).

As I said. So the person, even though a living, walking body, can be dead.

 

[Clare73]

As I said. So the person, even though a living, walking body, can be dead.

The physical person is not dead until the physical body dies.

Who woulda' tho't such basic knowledge would be challenged?

The human spirit never dies.

Surely Catholics know this. . .

 

[fhansen]

The physical person is not dead until the physical body dies.

Who woulda' tho't such basic knowledge would be challenged?

The human spirit never dies.

Surely Catholics know this. . .

The person is the same person in either case. And are most certainly dead to the extent that they are not in communion with God. That's a basic of the faith. Adam and Eve died the moment they ate of the fruit. Just like a person can be dead in their trespasses and sins. The metaphor should not be too deep to escape anyone. And this is why, incidentally, the church in the past has called the state of original sin the "death of the soul".

 

[Clare73]

The person is the same person in either case. And are most certainly dead to the extent that they are not in communion with God.

There is physical death of the body. . and there is spiritual death of the human spirit (i.e., absence of eternal life).
At physical death of the body, the body ceases to exist except for its dust.
The human spirit is immortal and nevers cease to exist, even without eternal (God's) life.

That's a basic of the faith. Adam and Eve died the moment they ate of the fruit. Just like a person can be dead in their trespasses and sins. The metaphor should not be too deep to escape anyone. And this is why, incidentally, the church in the past has called the state of original sin the "death of the soul".

The soul does not die.
Adam and Eve died spiritually; I.e., they lost eternal life within their spirits.

The person is the same person in either case. And are most certainly dead to the extent that they are not in communion with God. That's a basic of the faith. Adam and Eve died the moment they ate of the fruit.

They did not die physically, they died spiritually (loss of eternal life). . .there is a difference.
Physical death is cessation of the body's existence.
Spiritual death is not cessation of the immortal spirit's existence, it is absence of eternal (God's) life within the immortal human spirit.
Man is born in spiritual death (no eternal life in his spirit), by his nature an object of wrath (Eph 2:3), and who is reborn into eternal life by the sovereign choice (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

Just like a person can be dead in their trespasses and sins. The metaphor should not be too deep to escape anyone.

Dead in trespasses and sins is absence of eternal life within one's immortal spirit, not of physical life in one's physical body.
It is not a metahor, it is spiritual reality, and it is condemnation.

There are two kinds of death for man, physical and spiritual.
In physical death the body ceases to exist.
However, in spiritual death the immortal spirit does not cease to exist, it loses/does not possess eternal (God's) life.
Man is born in spiritual death (i.e., without eternal life within his immortal spirit) due to his inherited sinful nature making him an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

And this is why, incidentally, the church in the past has called the state of original sin the "death of the soul".

But the soul does not die.
Nor does man inherit sin. (Eze 18:20)
The sin with which man is born is the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19, 12-16), which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ to man, just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ro 4:1-5).

So man is born without eternal life within his immortal spirit, by nature an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).
He must be born again (Jn 3:3-8) into eternal life within his immortal spirit to avoid the condemnation of his spiritual death.

 

[fhansen]

There is physical death of the body. . and there is spiritual death of the human spirit (i.e., absence of eternal life).
At physical death of the body, the body ceases to exist except for its dust.
The human spirit is immortal and nevers cease to exist, even without eternal (God's) life.

And?? Is that supposed to somehow deny the fact that Jesus raises the spiritually dead to newness of life?

The soul does not die.
Adam and Eve died spiritually; I.e., they lost eternal life within their spirits.

The spirit of man does not die either then, since, as you say, it's immortal.

Death of the soul is a metaphor historically used for the same concept- for that which happens when one is separated from God. And that's the point. So are you denying that man is born dead metaphorically, while truly dead to God, and must be born again?

Adam and Eve died spiritually; I.e., they lost eternal life within their spirits.

Yes, as I've maintained. Dead men walking.

They did not die physically, they died spiritually (loss of eternal life). . .there is a difference.
Physical death is cessation of the body's existence.
Spiritual death is not cessation of the immortal spirit's existence, it is absence of eternal (God's) life within the immortal human spirit.
Man is born in spiritual death (no eternal life in his spirit), by his nature an object of wrath (Eph 2:3), and who is reborn into eternal life by the sovereign choice (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

OK? This adds nothing to what I've said. Dead men walking.

But the soul does not die.

Thanks for your opinion.

Nor does man inherit sin. (Eze 18:20)
The sin with which man is born is the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:14, 17, 18-19, 12-16), which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ to man, just as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ro 4:1-5).

A distinction without much of a difference. How is imputing sin to anyone who isn't guilty of it any different-or better- or more just? You don't quite seem to get it. All fell with Adam and so all share the same fate and consequences. All are equally dead. All need to be born again in order to live. Why, would you speculate, do all of Adam's descendants inevitably sin? Hint: there's something more wrong with them than imputed sin.

 

[Clare73]

Death of the soul is a metaphor historically used for the same concept- for that which happens when one is separated from God. And that's the point. So are you denying that man is born dead metaphorically, while truly dead to God, and must be born again?

I don't traffic in human metaphors for Biblically-stated truth.
Metaphors contain untruth and are problematic for Biblical concepts.

"Spiritual death" is the absence of eternal life within the humn immortal spirit, it is not "death of the soul."
Spiritual death does not mean current physical death, nor death of the human immortal spirit.
Most of living mankind is in spiritual death; i.e. no eternal (God's) life within their immortal human spirits.

A distinction without much of a difference.

You make no distinction between physical death and spiritual death, seemingly treating them in the same way.
They are not the same thing, and do not have the same consequences.

1) The human spirit is immortal and does not die.
2) Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, it is the absence of eternal life within the immortal human spirit.
3) Spiritual death is not physical death.
4) Physical death is death of the physical body.

How is imputing sin to anyone who isn't guilty of it any different-or better- or more just?

Well, man does not inherit sin (Eze 18:20).
Adam's sin is imputed by God, it being the pattern (Ro 5:14) for God's imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

You don't quite seem to get it. All fell with Adam and so all share the same fate and consequences. All are equally dead.
All need to be born again in order to live.

Do all need to be born again to have physical life?
They do not. . .

Rebirth (Jn 3:3-8) refers to eternal (God's) life within one's immortal spirit.
Rebirth does not refer to physical life.

Eternal life in the human spirit is not required for physical life.
One does not need to be spritually born again in order to be physically alive.

Why, would you speculate, do all of Adam's descendants inevitably sin?
there's something more wrong with them than imputed sin.

Indeed. . .there is there nature, which makes them objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

Adam's sin imputed to all mankind does not cause them to sin.
It simply counts them as guilty of Adam's sin and subject to its condemnation, it being the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

1) The human spirit is immortal and does not die.

Eccl. 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Matt. 23:9 for the kicker

2) Spiritual death is not death of the immortal human spirit, it is the absence of eternal life within the immortal human spirit.

And you don't see the circular argument therein?

Immortal life but absence of eternal life doesn't add up

There is no difference between immortal life and eternal life

Death is "a power" and not an immortal spirit

3) Spiritual death is not physical death.

Your position is simply equating and conflating immortal spirits with a power and these are simply not the same things or matters.

Scripture tells that that there will be "no more death," specifically:

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There is technically only ONE Occupant of Eternity in any case: 1 Tim. 15-16, 1 Cor. 15:28

 

[Clare73]

Eccl. 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Matt. 23:9 for the kicker
And you don't see the circular argument therein?
Immortal life but absence of eternal life doesn't add up
There is no difference between immortal life and eternal life

And you don't see the major misunderstanding therein?

The natures of divine life, angelic life and human life are not the same.

Divine life had no beginning, and has no end.

Angelic life had a beginning, is without a material body and has no ending.

Human life resides in a material body, has a beginning and an ending.

Angelic life is not divine life is not human life.

 

[fhansen]

I don't traffic in human metaphors for Biblically-stated truth.

Sure you do. We know death only because we know physical death. Spiritual death or death of the soul are metaphor- because they apply and use the term and concept of death metaphorically.

Metaphors contain untruth and are problematic for Biblical concepts.

Um, no, metaphors do not necessarily contain untruth. For example, the teaching that believers are grafted into a vine in John 15 is metaphor.

"Spiritual death" is the absence of eternal life within the humn immortal spirit, it is not "death of the soul."

"Spirtual death" or "death of the spirit" are terms not found in the bible, as with "death of the soul", even though the concepts, themselves, align with the truth of the gospel. And theologians do not necessarily distinguish defintively between the soul and spirit, while the soul is sometimes conceived of as a part more specifially containing the self: personality, etc. Either way the usage of one term over another is certainly nothing to get dogmatic or insistent about.

Spiritual death does not mean current physical death, nor death of the human immortal spirit.
Most of living mankind is in spiritual death; i.e. no eternal (God's) life within their immortal human spirits.

Yes, again you've added nothing here to what I originally said. So what's the point? Just exploring another pointless rabbit trail here? Here's what you've been contesting at least since post #97:

They were already dead, born that way due to their alienation from God. That's the state known as "original sin".

Well, man does not inherit sin (Eze 18:20).
Adam's sin is imputed by God, it being the pattern (Ro 5:14) for God's imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

A ridiculous unbiblcal pattern if imputation is said to be the only reason for man's unrighteousness before God and his restored righteousness through Christ.

Indeed. . .there is there nature, which makes them objects of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

Adam's sin imputed to all mankind does not cause them to sin.
It simply counts them as guilty of Adam's sin and subject to its condemnation, it being the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

Ok, finally, something changed in them due to the Fall that caused them to sin, to become actually unrighteous. They didn't receive a "sin nature" however, as if anything new was now added to them. The Fall was ltierally a fall away from God and His grace, from the life He had in store for them. Apart from Him now they could do nothing, including maintaining any consistent level of the righteousness or moral integrity that man was intended to have.

Again, our righteousness is directly intrinsic to our relationship with, our union with, our nearness to, God. So do you continue to object to the following?

All fell with Adam and so all share the same fate and consequences. All are equally dead. All need to be born again in order to live.

Human life is no life at all apart from God.