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Who then can be saved?

BNR32FAN

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What point are you trying to make here. Are you playing a Bible Trivia game, if so I'd guess there are Old Testament scriptures which describe mankind's state, yes that includes you and the Pope of Rome as well.

Every single person after Adam was born dead in sin, we all inherited our sin nature from our parents Adam and Eve. I don't know why you reject this truth which God Himself confirmed many times. If you reject this truth then you reject God Himself.

And if you're going to demand I answer your question, it sounds like Psalms 14:1-3 and Isaiah 59:7-8 I'm not going to look them up now but your welcome to correct me if necessary.
He’s quoting from psalms which are not always intended to be taken literally, they’re often proverbial sayings and proverbial saying are often exaggerated like as if I were to say nobody writes letters anymore. There’s an element of truth to that statement but it’s not intended to be taken literally. There’s purpose of the statement is to indicate that very few people write letters nowadays, not that nobody actually writes letters. None are righteous, not one? The Bible specifically states that several people were righteous. I’ve already told you this and as usual you just ignore it. When you have several passages making direct statements and you have a psalm that is making an opposing statement I would go with the several direct statements because the psalms are often composed of proverbial saying that are not intended to be taken literally.
 
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Dan1988

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No what I said has nothing to do with Judas. Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity comes from gnostic heresy that was literally refuted by Iranaeus in 170AD in his writing Adversus Haereses which was literally written to refute Gnosticism.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obeyHim deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
St Iranaeus' writings are his own opinion, he was not an Apostle, or a Prophet of God, so with all due respect, I don't follow after men, as you obviously do. I follow the Lord Jesus, thank you very much.
 
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Dan1988

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I don’t need to speculate about the answer to that question because scripture actually tells us that God does not desire for man to sin.

“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Surely God would not grieve in His heart over something that He Himself dictated to happen. So is man thwarting God’s plan or does God’s plan include man acting on his own free will?
There is no scripture stating that "God does not desire for man to sin". You just made that up to support your Arminianism.

Man has no free will, that's something the Gnostics conjured up, but there's nothing in the bible to support such a silly idea.

God doesn't have any plans, that's another silly heresy invented by the Gnostics. Mans actions can never thwart Gods decrees, what wicked men meant for evil, Gods uses to bring about His will.
 
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Dan1988

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In order for someone to save their self they would have to be able to atone for their sins which they can’t. So the statement about “our ability to save ourself” is just a false accusation since no one here is claiming to be saved apart from Christ’s atonement.
No, just because you deny something doesn't mean that it's not true. You deny "predestination to salvation", you claim it's a heretical teaching by John Calvin. But when I showed you that God teaches the same thing, you just ignore the in your face evidence and pretend you can't see the elephant in the room.
 
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Dan1988

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So you’re going to ignore Genesis 6:5-6 to? I showed it to you yesterday and you just act like it doesn’t even exist. It seems apparent to me that it doesn’t matter what the Bible says because your doctrines are the authority of your theology not the scriptures. Any time I present passages that refute your theology you ignore them as if they don’t even exist.
Your interpretation Genesis 6:5-6 is blasphemous and it means that God is a liar and He's not in control of anything at all.
This means that, either your interpretations is fundamentally flawed and catastrophically wrong, or if your opinion was correct then God is not who He claims to be.
 
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Dan1988

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From a Protestant perspective, I would say we are saved/justified by Grace alone. Gods does all the work of salvation and so God gets all the glory for that.

As far as works are concerned, we were created for good works. So the purpose of good works are not justification but Gods glory and our good.

Saved by grace alone. And Gods people have accompanying good works, when we are given a new heart, we love God and follow after his commandments.
Amen brother, the truth of the gospel is pure and simple and it leaves nothing for man to boast about. But the natural man, cannot receive it, because it is Spiritually discerned. Only those who are led by the Spirit, receive it and it is foolishness to the rest.
 
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Dan1988

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He’s quoting from psalms which are not always intended to be taken literally, they’re often proverbial sayings and proverbial saying are often exaggerated like as if I were to say nobody writes letters anymore. There’s an element of truth to that statement but it’s not intended to be taken literally. There’s purpose of the statement is to indicate that very few people write letters nowadays, not that nobody actually writes letters. None are righteous, not one? The Bible specifically states that several people were righteous. I’ve already told you this and as usual you just ignore it. When you have several passages making direct statements and you have a psalm that is making an opposing statement I would go with the several direct statements because the psalms are often composed of proverbial saying that are not intended to be taken literally.
I'm sorry to correct you again, but I have to because your opinion that some scriptures are exaggerated, is highly offensive to me and all those who believe that all Scripture is >>>>

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Unlike yourself, I don't believe that God exaggerates or plays word games. Every Word of God is precious and authoritative and is never disposable.
 
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BNR32FAN

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St Iranaeus' writings are his own opinion, he was not an Apostle, or a Prophet of God, so with all due respect, I don't follow after men, as you obviously do. I follow the Lord Jesus, thank you very much.
Oh but you follow after 16th century theologians to interpret scripture but not 2nd century theologians. Which one do you think had a better idea of what the early church taught?
 
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fhansen

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I appreciate your sincerity, but the idea that man can chose to believe the gospel without God first quickening him to life, is not supported by the Bible.
But that’s not what’s being said. The church has always taught (and laid these teachings down officially some 15 centuries ago), that man cannot move or raise himself, that grace is absolutely essential. The issue is in whether or not man can resist being drawn, or turn back way later after having tasted of the heavenly gift, failing to persevere.

It’s a matter of what we do with the gift(s) given, with more demanded of those given more (Luke 12:48). The Parable of the Talents in Matt 25 sheds much light on how this works.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There is no scripture stating that "God does not desire for man to sin". You just made that up to support your Arminianism.

Man has no free will, that's something the Gnostics conjured up, but there's nothing in the bible to support such a silly idea.

God doesn't have any plans, that's another silly heresy invented by the Gnostics. Mans actions can never thwart Gods decrees, what wicked men meant for evil, Gods uses to bring about His will.
Oh please do provide evidence to support your claim that the gnostics taught that man has free will because I just proved that they taught total depravity by quoting Iranaeus refuting their theology. Adversus Haereses was specifically written to refute Gnosticism. So present your evidence to support your claim, I’ve already presented mine.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There is no scripture stating that "God does not desire for man to sin". You just made that up to support your Arminianism.

Man has no free will, that's something the Gnostics conjured up, but there's nothing in the bible to support such a silly idea.

God doesn't have any plans, that's another silly heresy invented by the Gnostics. Mans actions can never thwart Gods decrees, what wicked men meant for evil, Gods uses to bring about His will.
So Genesis 6:5-6 doesn’t say that God doesn’t desire for man to sin?

“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God grieved in His heart but He wanted man to sin?
 
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Daniel Carlton

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Oh but you follow after 16th century theologians to interpret scripture but not 2nd century theologians. Which one do you think had a better idea of what the early church taught?
The Reformers went back into Christian history and recovered the true doctrines, like justification by faith alone. That had been buried under centuries of Roman heresy.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No, just because you deny something doesn't mean that it's not true. You deny "predestination to salvation", you claim it's a heretical teaching by John Calvin. But when I showed you that God teaches the same thing, you just ignore the in your face evidence and pretend you can't see the elephant in the room.
I’ve never refuted predestination at all. We are chosen according to God’s foreknowledge, according to His prognosis. The word predestined means to choose or appoint beforehand, to preordain. I’ve never refuted that at all. We were chosen according to His foreknowledge before the foundation of the world and written in the book of life. How is that not predestination?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your interpretation Genesis 6:5-6 is blasphemous and it means that God is a liar and He's not in control of anything at all.
This means that, either your interpretations is fundamentally flawed and catastrophically wrong, or if your opinion was correct then God is not who He claims to be.
Then by all means please do provide an accurate interpretation of the passage.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I'm sorry to correct you again, but I have to because your opinion that some scriptures are exaggerated, is highly offensive to me and all those who believe that all Scripture is >>>>

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness".

Unlike yourself, I don't believe that God exaggerates or plays word games. Every Word of God is precious and authoritative and is never disposable.
So then what do you do with the passages that say that Noah, Job, Abraham, Lot, and Zachariah were righteous men?
 
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BNR32FAN

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The Reformers went back into Christian history and recovered the true doctrines, like justification by faith alone. That had been buried under centuries of Roman heresy.
Too bad they only went back to the 5th century. Personally I think the 1st & 2nd century theologians had a better idea of what the apostles taught because they were actually disciples of the apostles and disciples of the apostle’s disciples. Don’t get me wrong they had the right idea to get out of the Roman church but they still ended up with a heretical theology.
 
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Dan1988

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Oh but you follow after 16th century theologians to interpret scripture but not 2nd century theologians. Which one do you think had a better idea of what the early church taught?
What's with the false accusations, where did you get the notion that I follow some 16th century theologians. I'd be interested to know, who lied to you and why you believe what slanderers say.

 
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Dan1988

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But that’s not what’s being said. The church has always taught (and laid these teachings down officially some 15 centuries ago), that man cannot move or raise himself, that grace is absolutely essential. The issue is in whether or not man can resist being drawn, or turn back way later after having tasted of the heavenly gift, failing to persevere.

It’s a matter of what we do with the gift(s) given, with more demanded of those given more (Luke 12:48). The Parable of the Talents in Matt 25 sheds much light on how this works.
Sorry, but the Bible does not support your view that "we must do this or that, in order to be saved". The Bible never ever says this anywhere.
I realise many professing Christians don't believe what Gods said about salvation, He said it is "not by works". So why are there so many obsessed with the false "saved by works" version of the gospel.,

I notice you're trying to defend your "saved by works" version of the gospel, by appealing to >>>

Hebrews 6:4-6 "4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The above verses confirm that the people in question were never saved, many just presume they were saved but the Bile never says they were, so why do you insist on making the bible say what it's not saying.

It must be speaking about those false professors or "wolves in sheep's clothing" types of Christians. Who attend Church services regularly and enjoy a free lunch and enjoy all the benefits that come with being a part of the Church community. Just like Judas Iscariot.

If your theory was biblically correct, then it would mean that Gods Word is full of contradictions, rendering it useless.
consider the verses below, how do they line up with your theory.

1 John 2"19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

Those guys attended Church services regularly and they did all the external things to show they are genuine believers, but the truth is they were never converted inwardly, it was all an outward show.
 
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Dan1988

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Oh please do provide evidence to support your claim that the gnostics taught that man has free will because I just proved that they taught total depravity by quoting Iranaeus refuting their theology. Adversus Haereses was specifically written to refute Gnosticism. So present your evidence to support your claim, I’ve already presented mine.
You presented no evidence, I don't believe in those men you follow. I only follow the Lord Jesus, you can have those wise guys all to yourself
 
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Dan1988

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So Genesis 6:5-6 doesn’t say that God doesn’t desire for man to sin?

“Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6‬:‭5‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God grieved in His heart but He wanted man to sin?
That's right, Genesis 6:5-6 doesn't say any such silly thing. Why are you obsessed with making stuff up. Don't you know that those who add or take away from Gods Word will suffer all of the plagues described in the book of Revelation. Yes that includes the lake of fire.

Where does it say that "God doesn't desire for man to sin",,,, answer NOWHERE!!!
 
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