Who then can be saved?

[2PhiloVoid]

Honestly I think this guy is just here to troll.

I know. It does feel that way sometimes when we speak with certain individuals, doesn't it? But it's difficult to know for sure since some folks are on the spectrum and have difficulties in expressing themselves.

I try to be patient with them as much as I can. If they're trolls, they typically give up "the act" and leave at some point.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I know. It does feel that way sometimes when we speak with certain individuals, doesn't it? But it's difficult to know for sure since some folks are on the spectrum and have difficulties in expressing themselves.

I try to be patient with them as much as I can. If they're trolls, they typically give up "the act" and leave at some point.

I dunno he seems to really go out of his way to insult fellow Christians who are just quoting scripture.

 

[Valletta]

The EOC is the same as the RCC, both teach "works based salvation", while the Protestant Church teaches the Biblical "saved by grace" gospel.

That's false, the Catholic Church does not teach a "works based salvation." Christians are saved through the sacrament of Baptism and continue to be saved.

 

[Dan1988]

That is a non-sequitur. You have no idea "how" I've come to be a Christian, nor have you asked what my own approach to Biblical Hermeneutics is.

At this moment, you have ZERO grounds for accurately diagnosing either my status as a Christian or whether or not my own understanding of the Scriptures is 'accurate' or not. Notice, too, I'm not doing the same to you; I'm not spending time here asserting that you're somehow not a fellow Christian.


If you're going to nonchalantly cherry-pick a verse from Paul's letter to the Ephesians, then I'm going to insist that you and I read his entire letter to the Ephesians together, verse by verse, to gain Paul's flow of thought and his cumulative contexts which inform and contour the meaning of Ephesians 2:8-10.

Let's see if Paul states that Christians don't have to make any efforts whatsoever in their lives to fulfill what "faith" means.

There is only one correct approach to Biblical Hermeneutics, and it is the same one, which all true believers have used from the beginning and right throughout Church History, up to our time.

I'm not interested in diagnosing your status as a Christian, but I must defend the truth of the gospel, when it comes under attack. Gods Word exposes heretics, I'm not the one who sets the rules. I just shine the light of scripture to see if someone is proclaiming the truth or spreading false doctrines.

If your theology is in harmony with Gods Word, then it will expose those who teach false doctrines.

We were considering what the Bible has to say about salvation, I referred to >>>

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The verses simply state that saved people are saved "By Grace". That means it wasn't by your good works or you obedience or anything else you care to claim.

The verse continues by stating "through faith" this is the part where the "saved by works" gospel subscribes, get to boast, by6 clai8mingn that they created their own faith. But the following verse exposes that belief as false by declaring that it is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God.

If you believe that salvation is a joint effort between you and God, then it means that Jesus didn't finish the work of salvation on the cross and that contradicts what he said, just before Hew gave up the ghost. "It is finished". That can only mean, you don't need to add to His finished work, because the Bible states that "your best works are as filthy rags in Gods sight".

 

[Dan1988]

As has already been said, God, alone, justifies the ungodly. He does the justifying as we become united with Him through faith which, itself, is both a gift and a choice.. But then we're required to walk in that justice, to live it.. And that understanding is the bridge between your verses and mine. That walk is a moment-by-moment or daily choice aided by grace, by Him. If it was guaranteed, then no believer would ever sin. But that's not the case.

And another thing that pertains to God, alone, is absolute perfect knowledge of who the elect are, exactly who are being referred to in the verses you present

Can we clarify who the "we" are, that you refer to as the ones becoming united with Him. This can only be describing the elect, because God does not justify the unbelievers. He leaves them dead in their sin and they are bound for hell.

Only God and the believer know if they are one of Gods elect, nobody else can know for sure. Some Devils sneak into Churches and preach from the pulpit and everybody thinks they are true Christians. None of the Disciples knew which one of them was a Devil, except for Jesus and Judas himself.

 

[Dan1988]

Ok so you’re saying that everyone came to Christ before creation? So Paul was a Christian before the road to Damascus while he was persecuting Christians? Were you born a believer?

I'm not saying anything of the sort, and it's obvious to me that your difficulty in understanding the doctrine of predestination to salvation, stems from your failure to distinguish our view and Gods view.

We have a very narrow view of time and space, but God sees the whole of time, from the begging to the end in present moment. We can only see now and we can remember some of what happened in the past.

So, we cannot pretend to be a a level playing field with God. He knows everything at once, He sees everything at once, He ordained all things that come to pass and the list goes on endlessly. So it's futile to compare our knowledge and understanding to God, yet most Christians d it without giving it a second taught, then they wonder why their theology is so messed up.

God's ways are infinitely higher than ours, His ways are past finding out, so attempting to figure out why God does what he does, ,is a futile exercise. Our part is to trust and obey Him, and let Him rule the universe as He always has., I used to wreck my head, trying to make sense of everything God does. I had no peace until I surrendered and let Him run the show.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There is only one correct approach to Biblical Hermeneutics, and it is the same one, which all true believers have used from the beginning and right throughout Church History, up to our time.

And what is this magical "correct approach" to Biblical Hermeneutics? Please tell me so I can add it to the other several "correct approaches" used among various groups of our fellow Christians (and which are described and meted out in over two dozen books I have by various theologians from various denominations).

I'm not interested in diagnosing your status as a Christian, but I must defend the truth of the gospel, when it comes under attack. Gods Word exposes heretics, I'm not the one who sets the rules. I just shine the light of scripture to see if someone is proclaiming the truth or spreading false doctrines.

We're both aligning with the truth of the Gospel, although I'd be slower to cite others as being heretics than you and I hesitate because of a wide range of conceptual, behavioral, philosophical and theological issues that no one has completely solved (nor can solve).

If your theology is in harmony with Gods Word, then it will expose those who teach false doctrines.

We were considering what the Bible has to say about salvation, I referred to >>>

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The verses simply state that saved people are saved "By Grace". That means it wasn't by your good works or you obedience or anything else you care to claim.

I'm going to take this response that you somehow don't think we need to gain a fuller immediate context for the letter to the Ephesians by reading it completely. You prefer the simplistic approach (which is in essence, a truncated approach).

The verse continues by stating "through faith" this is the part where the "saved by works" gospel subscribes, get to boast, by6 clai8mingn that they created their own faith. But the following verse exposes that belief as false by declaring that it is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God.

Do you think a person can be saved if they "have faith through grace" but is still practicing the same sin with the same vigor that they did before they became a Christian? Personally, I would have to say either "no," or that such a person is in danger of living in a big question mark for their salvation, even if they wake up each day claiming that they're saved by God's grace because they have "faith."

And I think Paul makes it at least minimally clear in Ephesians that "faith" insinuates there is an effort to repent from a former form of sinful life as a part of living out one's faith and entering into the Grace that God gives us in Christ.

If you believe that salvation is a joint effort between you and God, then it means that Jesus didn't finish the work of salvation on the cross and that contradicts what he said, just before Hew gave up the ghost. "It is finished". That can only mean, you don't need to add to His finished work, because the Bible states that "your best works are as filthy rags in Gods sight".

Well, it is a Covenant we are entering into----God does His part in offering us His Grace through Christ, and we do our part by responding in faith. Of course there's a "joint effort" between us and God, even if our own part in the covenant is obviously comparatively very small.

If you want to believe otherwise, I can't stop you and as long as you have faith, I won't degrade your status as a bona fide Christian.

 

[Dan1988]

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

We’re not talking about works based salvation we’re talking about eternal security so try to stay on topic.

No, they never truly believed. Yes they made a public profession of faith and walked down the isle, but they were never inwardly converted.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[Dan1988]

I believe in saved by faith.

OK, so now you have invented your own private, unbiblical version of the gospel. You won't find any such silly version of the gospel anywhere in the Bible.

I can't believe how brazen you are to reject and deny the truth of the gospel, which states (in order to promote your false unbiblical version.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved. But you say No that's wrong because I say "I'm saved by faith". Beggars belief.

 

[Dan1988]

The words “if anyone” applies to everyone.

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yes Sir, "If anyone" does not mean "I command you to abide in Me", or I will burn you up. Can you see the problem with that theory, it just doesn't float.

 

[Dan1988]

The gift of God received THRU FAITH. Not apart from faith.

Yes, but you falsy believe that you conjured up your faith while you were dead in your sin. There in lies the problem, you have nothing that you didn't receive from God. That includes "your faith", but you didn't make your faith it was given to you by God, so that you would believe the gospel when you hear it.

No natural man can believe, until God gives him the faith to believe. Do you believe this, please?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

OK, so now you have invented your own private, unbiblical version of the gospel. You won't find any such silly version of the gospel anywhere in the Bible.

I can't believe how brazen you are to reject and deny the truth of the gospel, which states (in order to promote your false unbiblical version.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved. But you say No that's wrong because I say "I'm saved by faith". Beggars belief.

For this public forum, the only primary qualification to identify as a 'true Christian' is to affirm the Nicene Creed. And if you continue to badger fellow Christians here regardless of the forum rules, don't be surprised if you get reported and banned.

Do you understand what I'm saying, brother?

 

[fhansen]

Can we clarify who the "we" are, that you refer to as the ones becoming united with Him. This can only be describing the elect, because God does not justify the unbelievers. He leaves them dead in their sin and they are bound for hell.

Only God and the believer know if they are one of Gods elect, nobody else can know for sure. Some Devils sneak into Churches and preach from the pulpit and everybody thinks they are true Christians. None of the Disciples knew which one of them was a Devil, except for Jesus and Judas himself.

The “justice” in man becoming justified is a direct result of his turning to God in faith. Because the essence or basis of that justice or righteousness is that very union. If we remain in Him, persevering to the end, we are the elect. From man’s perspective, some will think they’re His while they are not while others may not know they’re His, while they are. As for Judas, he probably thought he was the greatest saint of them all to begin with-while that self-righteousness was actually the precursor to his fall. Either way, from God's perspective...well, He knows all, of course.


And faith is first of all a gift of grace and secondly a human choice, a continuous one that can be rejected at any point. We can return to our old ways, to Adam's way, to the flesh, to ourselves. The fact that believers continue to struggle with sin and sometimes fail, in fact, proves that we're not 100% "sold out", not fully turned to God yet despite any talk or claims to the contrary.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, they never truly believed. Yes they made a public profession of faith and walked down the isle, but they were never inwardly converted.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Ok so Jesus said they believed and you say they didn’t. So who should I believe? The fact is that Jesus absolutely and undeniably said that people will believe and fall away and you’re just refusing to accept what it specifically and clearly stated in the scriptures. It’s undeniable, I literally just showed it to you in black and white quoted directly from Jesus’ words and you still refuse to admit it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

OK, so now you have invented your own private, unbiblical version of the gospel. You won't find any such silly version of the gospel anywhere in the Bible.

I can't believe how brazen you are to reject and deny the truth of the gospel, which states (in order to promote your false unbiblical version.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved. But you say No that's wrong because I say "I'm saved by faith". Beggars belief.

So we’re saved by grace apart from faith? Why didn’t you quote the rest of the verse? I’ll tell you why because you don’t care about the truth of God’s word you’re only here to insult and badmouth people who are actually trying to help you by quoting the scriptures but you don’t care what the scriptures actually say, you care more about your precious doctrines than the word of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm not saying anything of the sort, and it's obvious to me that your difficulty in understanding the doctrine of predestination to salvation, stems from your failure to distinguish our view and Gods view.

We have a very narrow view of time and space, but God sees the whole of time, from the begging to the end in present moment. We can only see now and we can remember some of what happened in the past.

So, we cannot pretend to be a a level playing field with God. He knows everything at once, He sees everything at once, He ordained all things that come to pass and the list goes on endlessly. So it's futile to compare our knowledge and understanding to God, yet most Christians d it without giving it a second taught, then they wonder why their theology is so messed up.

God's ways are infinitely higher than ours, His ways are past finding out, so attempting to figure out why God does what he does, ,is a futile exercise. Our part is to trust and obey Him, and let Him rule the universe as He always has., I used to wreck my head, trying to make sense of everything God does. I had no peace until I surrendered and let Him run the show.

Ok so here’s exactly what you said.

Sorry but I stopped watching after about a minute, because of the false interpretation of the first verse. You failed to take into consideration the first part of the verse, which states "All that the Father has give to Me,, shall come to Me".

The narrator, ignores the first part of the verse and tries to say there's a problem with the word "come". Ha says, it has a present tense meaning in the Greek.
That instantly blew his theory out of the water, because the father didn't just decide to give Jesus the elect in that moment. No the deal was done before the world was created, so I didn't need to waste anymore time listening to false interpretations.

You should never pluck out single words out of their intended context and apply some unrelated meaning to them. That is to abuse Gods Word.

So you did in fact say that the word “comes” in John 6:37 isn’t in the present tense because God chose the elect before creation which is implying that people come to Christ either at birth or before creation. And I showed on screen copied and pasted directly from Biblehub.com the definition of the Greek word Erchomahai that is translated to the word “comes” at 1 minute 8 seconds into the video. And even after I pointed that out in this reply to you, you still didn’t have the humility to admit it.

Oh and you obviously didn’t pay attention because that’s not what I said at all. I said the word “comes” not the word come and I highlighted it red letters in the text on the screen. I also showed the lexicon definition of Greek word Erchomai that is translated to “comes” at 1 minute 8 seconds into the video.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes Sir, "If anyone" does not mean "I command you to abide in Me", or I will burn you up. Can you see the problem with that theory, it just doesn't float.

Again you’re ignoring verse 4 where He says “abide in Me”. That is a commandment.

“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Are you saying that abiding in Christ is optional? Do you know what the word abide means?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, but you falsy believe that you conjured up your faith while you were dead in your sin. There in lies the problem, you have nothing that you didn't receive from God. That includes "your faith", but you didn't make your faith it was given to you by God, so that you would believe the gospel when you hear it.

No natural man can believe, until God gives him the faith to believe. Do you believe this, please?

No I don’t believe that at all because then the requirement is circular and doesn’t make any sense. Jesus calls people to repent and believe in order to be saved yet in your theology people can only comply if God has chosen them and they can’t do otherwise and those whom God has not chosen can’t comply. So why tell people to do something that they both cant comply with and can’t refuse to comply with?

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, they never truly believed. Yes they made a public profession of faith and walked down the isle, but they were never inwardly converted.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Ok so you think that 1 John 2:19 is saying that anyone who turns away was never a true believer? Because that’s not what is actually written in that passage and that interpretation directly contradicts James 5:19-20. So first of all John is talking about a specific group of people. “They went out from us” not “if anyone went out from us”. In that passage John is talking about a specific group of people who left the church. So let’s compare this to James 5:19-20.

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Here James is talking about a true believer who strays from the truth of the gospel and says that his soul is in danger of death unless he is turned BACK. The key indicator that this person is a true believer is the phrase “and one turns him BACK”. If this person wasn’t a true believer to begin with he would have nothing to turn back to that would save his soul from death. Only a backslidden true believer can turn back and be saved. Now if what you’re saying is true and a true believer can’t lose their salvation then this person’s soul could never be in danger of death in the first place just like those who fail to abide in Christ in John 15:6. In fact John 15:6 would be describing an impossible scenario if it is impossible for someone to fail to remain in Christ to the point of being cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned since according to Calvinists no one can come to Christ unless The Father draws them. You don’t recognize that the means by which we are drawn to Christ has changed after His crucifixion according to John 12:32.

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.””
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In John 6:44 Jesus was talking about how people were drawn to Him at that time. In John 12:32 Jesus is talking about how people will be drawn to Him after His crucifixion. There’s a definite change in the way that we are drawn to Christ after His crucifixion and it’s thru the gospel which is why the very last words He spoke to His apostles before ascending into heaven were….

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This is His plan for how He draws all men to Himself after He is raised up.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that the gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, not for those who are allowed or chosen to believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, but you falsy believe that you conjured up your faith while you were dead in your sin. There in lies the problem, you have nothing that you didn't receive from God. That includes "your faith", but you didn't make your faith it was given to you by God, so that you would believe the gospel when you hear it.

No natural man can believe, until God gives him the faith to believe. Do you believe this, please?

Congratulations you quoted 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 now read the next 5 statements Paul said and learn why he said that.

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He isn’t finished here, continue reading.

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Now you tell me are these Corinthians spiritually appraised? Are they understanding the things of the Spirit according to what Paul just said here? Are these people believers in Christ?