When does blindness occur?

[Aaron112]

Tell that to the folks who perished in the Flood, not to mention the billions of humans who spend eternity burning in the Lake of Fire.

Those in the grave cannot speak nor hear anything.
Nothing in Scripture so far proves anyone spends eternity burning in the lake of fire. Destroyed yes. Don't add to God's Word.
The ones who perished in the flood were altogether wicked and refused to be saved .

 

[bbbbbbb]

Those in the grave cannot speak nor hear anything.
Nothing in Scripture so far proves anyone spends eternity burning in the lake of fire. Destroyed yes. Don't add to God's Word.
The ones who perished in the flood were altogether wicked and refused to be saved .

Thank you for the confirmation of the point I made in Post #16. It is much appreciated.

 

[A New Dawn]

Some have tried to show that blindness is a result of man's choice; but failed.
The whole of Scripture, and YHVH'S Plan for Salvation,
repeatedly and throughout all history shows that men are blind by default, as you put it.
What is the part in the religion that tries to show otherwise ? Why try ? It is part of a religious system that for some reason 'needs' men to only be blind by choice/disobedience, but that contradicts too much Scripture. All Scripture is true - Scripture does not contradict itself; or rather, God's Plan and God's Word is Perfect Forever , and His Plan as well, and there is no contradiction in nor from God,
so if anything or anyone contradicts God, it or them is not truthful nor from God.
===============
Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › passage

10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

Acts 17:27​

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

... [grope for; reach out to; feel their way towards] him and find him, though he ... “He did all this so that people might seek God in the hope that by groping ...

Deuteronomy 28:29​

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

so that at noon you will grope as a blind person gropes in the dark. ... And you shall be groping at noon just as the blind person gropes in the dark ...

Isaiah 59:10​

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

We grope like the blind along a wall, groping like those who have no eyes; we stumble at noon as in the twilight, among the vigorous as though we were dead.

Both are true. Adam’s rebellion against God is what led to the fall, which in turn resulted in the default of blindness to all men. We all live in rebellion and blindness. We don’t become blind, though, we are born blind.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Romans is a book that is often the topic of fierce debate, when it comes to the theological topic of Predestination, and free will. Personally, I believe that God has given man free will, that all people will be given a chance of life, but their choices determine whether they will be saved.

One of the key topics of this debate is the fact that God brings blindness to the sinner. If a person believes in Predestination, they will say, “A portion of the world was always destined, or planned, to be blind from the beginning”. That, “God only rescues a selected portion of creation, not based on man’s deeds, but God’s choice”.

I would like to show from Romans 1 that it makes more sense to believe spiritual blindness comes as “a result of disobedience”, not as a default; it comes because of man’s choice. As we see in the 21st verse.

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

Romans 1:21 shows us that God gives His knowledge to all, but some men choose to “supress” or push down that knowledge, God then gives those people over to blindness.

We see that also in:

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

God sends strong delusion to those who have “pleasure in unrighteousness”. So a debased mind is not the default, but rather what we are given over to if we delight in sin.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;​

The earliest Church Leaders also taught that man “as it were, blind themselves”

4. ... but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. (Irenaeus 120-202, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39 -End)​

​

Note: blindness in this post is not referring to Spiritual Ignorance, but rather a deep blindness that prevents salvation from occurring. We are all born with Spiritual Ignorance, blindness in this post refers to that which prevents salvation.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.​

​

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.​

Jesus speak of this plainly when we go away from God's commandments (His Testimony Exo31:18) quoting from the Ten in lieu of man-made commandments and traditions.


Mat 15:3, He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Both are true. Adam’s rebellion against God is what led to the fall, which in turn resulted in the default of blindness to all men. We all live in rebellion and blindness. We don’t become blind, though, we are born blind.

From the initial post:

Note: blindness in this post is not referring to Spiritual Ignorance, but rather a deep blindness that prevents salvation from occurring. We are all born with Spiritual Ignorance, blindness in this post refers to that which prevents salvation.​

When Jesus comes sight comes, He shows us who God is.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.​

​

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.​

Man is not blind to God; God gives us that sight, man is just overpowered by sin:

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.​

When we accept Christ He gives us power over that sin, by both forgiving it (if we sin), and strengthening us by the Holy Spirit (to not sin).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus speak of this plainly when we go away from God's commandments (His Testimony Exo31:18) quoting from the Ten in lieu of man-made commandments and traditions.


Mat 15:3, He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

I am delighted that we agree that spiritual is an endemic condition of humanity.

 

[A New Dawn]

From the initial post:

Note: blindness in this post is not referring to Spiritual Ignorance, but rather a deep blindness that prevents salvation from occurring. We are all born with Spiritual Ignorance, blindness in this post refers to that which prevents salvation.​

When Jesus comes sight comes, He shows us who God is.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.​

​

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.​

Man is not blind to God; God gives us that sight, man is just overpowered by sin:

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.​

When we accept Christ He gives us power over that sin, by both forgiving it (if we sin), and strengthening us by the Holy Spirit (to not sin).

I spoke about the difference between spiritual ignorance (which is what we see in the Garden of Eden) and spiritual blindness which we see in the whole of human history after Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

One can only be ignorant of sin if we don’t know what sin is, which could have only happened prior to eating of the tree of knowledge. Once we know what sin is, we can no longer be ignorant. We are blind.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

One can only be ignorant of sin if we don’t know what sin is, which could have only happened prior to eating of the tree of knowledge. Once we know what sin is, we can no longer be ignorant. We are blind.

Jesus said:

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.​

We are in a state of blindness or spiritual ignorance until God reveals Himself to us. In blindness, Jesus said "we would have no sin".

It is after Jesus reveals His word and grace that we become accountable for our sins. We then have a choice to make:

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.​

Once our ears are open, we become accountable for our actions. Some people love their sin too much to come to Jesus, others are willing to forsake it.

Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."​

This is not a one-time event, God often softens the heart of the sinner to His word. We see this process in:

Luke 13:6-9 He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.' "​

Which shows that salvation can go either way, based upon the person's choices. God seeks fruit in the person, if He does not find it initially, He keeps trying, then only gives up after time.

 

[Dikaioumenoi]

Romans is a book that is often the topic of fierce debate, when it comes to the theological topic of Predestination, and free will. Personally, I believe that God has given man free will, that all people will be given a chance of life, but their choices determine whether they will be saved.

One of the key topics of this debate is the fact that God brings blindness to the sinner. If a person believes in Predestination, they will say, “A portion of the world was always destined, or planned, to be blind from the beginning”. That, “God only rescues a selected portion of creation, not based on man’s deeds, but God’s choice”.

Your opening comments already rest on a few assumptions that should be examined before the discussion can move forward:

1. You equate predestination with fatalism ("a portion of the world was always destined to be blind from the beginning"). Can you point to a single Reformed expositor or confessional statement that defines it that way? It's imperative that we accurately represent the views of others.

2. You suggest that divine election negates human choice. Again, can you point to a Reformed statement or confession that ever frames God's sovereignty and human responsibility as opposites to be reconciled? Does the Reformed perspective not maintain that divine sovereignty and human responsibility operate compatibly (cf. WCF 3.1, 9.1) as exemplified in passages like Gen. 50:20 and Acts 2:23?

3. You imply that predestination denies that "all will be given a chance at life." Can you show where any Reformed confession denies the universal proclamation of the gospel or the genuine offer of salvation to all nations (cf. WCF 7.3, 10.2)? The question in Reformed theology is not whether the offer is sincere, but whether its acceptance rests ultimately on sovereign grace or autonomous will.

I would like to show from Romans 1 that it makes more sense to believe spiritual blindness comes as “a result of disobedience”...

Your point here is well taken; Paul certainly shows that spiritual darkness intensifies through persistent rejection of revealed truth. But the passage is describing not the initial cause of blindness, but its judicial reinforcement. Paul's argument in Romans 1-3 unfolds progressively. In chapter 1, he is explaining how God's wrath is received (v. 18): namely, by "giving them over" (vv. 24, 26, 28). That phrase, παρέδωκεν ὁ θεός, is not the language of causation of first sin, but of judicial handing over to the consequences of sin already present.

So yes, Romans 1 teaches that blindness results from sin. But it does not follow that sinners begin in a neutral, sighted state and then blind themselves by choice. Romans 3:10-12 clarifies that "none seeks for God," and Romans 8:7-8 says the natural mind "does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot." The blindness of Romans 1:21 is therefore the outworking of a depraved state, not its origin.

If I may ask:

• Do you take Paul to mean that unregenerate humanity ever possesses a morally neutral capacity to "retain God in their knowledge" apart from grace (cf. Rom. 1:28)?
• If blindness only follows repeated sin, how would you interpret Eph. 4:18, where ignorance is "due to the hardness of their heart" -- that is, intrinsic, not acquired?

We see that also in:

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

God sends strong delusion to those who have “pleasure in unrighteousness”. So a debased mind is not the default, but rather what we are given over to if we delight in sin.

Again, seeing this text as disproof of divine sovereignty over reprobation confuses the judicial result of sin with its original cause. The position you're opposing does not teach that God creates blindness or moral corruption ex nihilo. Rather, He righteously hands sinners over to the blindness they have already chosen in Adam and continue to embrace.

Paul's point in this text is judicial, not causal. Those who "did not receive the love of the truth" are therefore given "a strong delusion" (ἐνέργειαν πλάνης). That delusion is not the origin of their depravity; it is the divine confirmation of it. Their refusal to love the truth is the immediate cause of judgment; their fallen nature (Rom. 8:7-8) is the ultimate cause.

If you're objecting to Reformed theology, then it is necessary that you recognize the distinctions Reformed theology makes:

• Moral inability is the state of fallen humanity inherited from Adam (Rom. 5:12-19; Eph. 2:1-3). It's the cause of blindness.
• Judicial hardening is God's righteous act of giving sinners over to their chosen darkness (Rom. 1:24, 26, 28). It's the result of persistent rebellion.

So, yes... blindness results from sin, but that does not mean it originates from a morally neutral will. The sinner sins because he is blind (John 3:19-20), and God's judgment in hardening only seals what the fallen heart already desires.

The earliest Church Leaders also taught that man “as it were, blind themselves”

4. ... but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. (Irenaeus 120-202, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39 -End)​

Appealing to "the earliest Church leaders" as a unified interpretive block is historically careless. The patristic writers were not a monolith, nor were they always systematic or mutually consistent. The second century was marked by vigorous theological development. Irenaeus, Justin, Tertullian, and Clement differ on numerous points, including the nature of grace and freedom. So to claim that "the earliest Church leaders taught X" is, at best, an overstatement.

As for the quotation itself, Irenaeus is addressing the moral culpability of those who reject divine revelation, not the metaphysical origin of human blindness. He's contrasting the willing rejection of the light with its judicial consequence ("He has prepared darkness..."). Nothing in this passage denies man's fallen inability apart from grace; it simply underscores that the judgment is just because man's rebellion is voluntary.

Reformed theology fully agrees. Sinners "blind themselves" in the sense that they sin willingly, not by external coercion. The question is not whether men choose darkness (the certainly do), but whether, apart from regenerating grace, they could ever do otherwise. Irenaeus' moral appeal does not settle that question. The grammar of Romans 8 and John 6 does.

Note: blindness in this post is not referring to Spiritual Ignorance, but rather a deep blindness that prevents salvation from occurring. We are all born with Spiritual Ignorance, blindness in this post refers to that which prevents salvation.

This clarification actually makes your position more problematic, not less, as the distinction you're raising here actually reinforces, rather than refutes, the Reformed understanding. Let me explain.

First, Scripture does not present humanity as merely "spiritually ignorant." Paul is explicit that the unregenerate mind is not just uninformed but hostile to God:

"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Rom. 8:7-8)​

That word "cannot" (οὐ δύναται) indicates inability, not mere ignorance. Likewise, 1 Cor. 2:14:

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."​

Note again: is not able (οὐ δύναται) to understand them. That's not ignorance; it's incapacity. This is not the blindness of one who lacks data, but of one who rejects light because of moral corruption. So to say all are born "ignorant" is already too weak; Scripture calls it spiritual death (Eph. 2:1-3), not partial blindness.

Second, the "deeper blindness" you describe (the one that "prevents salvation") is precisely what Reformed theology categorizes as judicial hardening. It is God's righteous act of giving a sinner over to his own chosen darkness. It's not that some neutral people become blind; it's that already-blind rebels are further confirmed in blindness as a consequence of rejecting truth. So, whether unintentionally or not, you're misrepresenting the position you oppose by assuming that it conflates a distinction it explicitly maintains -- one that you yourself later acknowledge, though without recognizing that your opponent does as well.

In short, you've described two stages of blindness, but the first stage (spiritual death) is itself morally culpable and already prevents salvation apart from grace. The second stage (judicial blindness) is God's righteous sealing of that condition. Neither concept contradicts the position you are arguing against; they presuppose it.