• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

When does blindness occur?

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,784
1,428
TULSA
✟124,007.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Tell that to the folks who perished in the Flood, not to mention the billions of humans who spend eternity burning in the Lake of Fire.
Those in the grave cannot speak nor hear anything.
Nothing in Scripture so far proves anyone spends eternity burning in the lake of fire. Destroyed yes. Don't add to God's Word.
The ones who perished in the flood were altogether wicked and refused to be saved .
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
31,030
14,045
74
✟439,240.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Those in the grave cannot speak nor hear anything.
Nothing in Scripture so far proves anyone spends eternity burning in the lake of fire. Destroyed yes. Don't add to God's Word.
The ones who perished in the flood were altogether wicked and refused to be saved .
Thank you for the confirmation of the point I made in Post #16. It is much appreciated.
 
Upvote 0

A New Dawn

Bind my wandering heart to thee!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2004
71,356
8,021
Western New York
✟174,756.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Some have tried to show that blindness is a result of man's choice; but failed.
The whole of Scripture, and YHVH'S Plan for Salvation,
repeatedly and throughout all history shows that men are blind by default, as you put it.
What is the part in the religion that tries to show otherwise ? Why try ? It is part of a religious system that for some reason 'needs' men to only be blind by choice/disobedience, but that contradicts too much Scripture. All Scripture is true - Scripture does not contradict itself; or rather, God's Plan and God's Word is Perfect Forever , and His Plan as well, and there is no contradiction in nor from God,
so if anything or anyone contradicts God, it or them is not truthful nor from God.
===============
Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › passage

10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

Acts 17:27

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

... [grope for; reach out to; feel their way towards] him and find him, though he ... “He did all this so that people might seek God in the hope that by groping ...

Deuteronomy 28:29

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

so that at noon you will grope as a blind person gropes in the dark. ... And you shall be groping at noon just as the blind person gropes in the dark ...

Isaiah 59:10

Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com › verse

We grope like the blind along a wall, groping like those who have no eyes; we stumble at noon as in the twilight, among the vigorous as though we were dead.
Both are true. Adam’s rebellion against God is what led to the fall, which in turn resulted in the default of blindness to all men. We all live in rebellion and blindness. We don’t become blind, though, we are born blind.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,995
5,627
USA
✟733,224.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Romans is a book that is often the topic of fierce debate, when it comes to the theological topic of Predestination, and free will. Personally, I believe that God has given man free will, that all people will be given a chance of life, but their choices determine whether they will be saved.

One of the key topics of this debate is the fact that God brings blindness to the sinner. If a person believes in Predestination, they will say, “A portion of the world was always destined, or planned, to be blind from the beginning”. That, “God only rescues a selected portion of creation, not based on man’s deeds, but God’s choice”.

I would like to show from Romans 1 that it makes more sense to believe spiritual blindness comes as “a result of disobedience”, not as a default; it comes because of man’s choice. As we see in the 21st verse.

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.​

Romans 1:21 shows us that God gives His knowledge to all, but some men choose to “supress” or push down that knowledge, God then gives those people over to blindness.

We see that also in:

2Th 2:10-12 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

God sends strong delusion to those who have “pleasure in unrighteousness”. So a debased mind is not the default, but rather what we are given over to if we delight in sin.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;​

The earliest Church Leaders also taught that man “as it were, blind themselves”

4. ... but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. (Irenaeus 120-202, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39 -End)
Note: blindness in this post is not referring to Spiritual Ignorance, but rather a deep blindness that prevents salvation from occurring. We are all born with Spiritual Ignorance, blindness in this post refers to that which prevents salvation.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Jesus speak of this plainly when we go away from God's commandments (His Testimony Exo31:18) quoting from the Ten in lieu of man-made commandments and traditions.


Mat 15:3, He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”

12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
 
Upvote 0

FutureAndAHope

Just me
Site Supporter
Aug 30, 2008
6,872
3,136
Australia
Visit site
✟914,221.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Both are true. Adam’s rebellion against God is what led to the fall, which in turn resulted in the default of blindness to all men. We all live in rebellion and blindness. We don’t become blind, though, we are born blind.

From the initial post:

Note: blindness in this post is not referring to Spiritual Ignorance, but rather a deep blindness that prevents salvation from occurring. We are all born with Spiritual Ignorance, blindness in this post refers to that which prevents salvation.

When Jesus comes sight comes, He shows us who God is.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains.​
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.​

Man is not blind to God; God gives us that sight, man is just overpowered by sin:

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.​

When we accept Christ He gives us power over that sin, by both forgiving it (if we sin), and strengthening us by the Holy Spirit (to not sin).
 
Upvote 0