Who then can be saved?

[SabbathBlessings]

So you still hold to the view that you somehow conjured up and produced faith from within yourself, while you were dead in sin.

Can you quote where I said this please.

I asked how a dead man can find it within himself to make himself alive and change his nature from a carnal sin nature to a Christlike nature.

Through Christ abiding in Him. I'll share what that looks like

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

The Holy Spirit is the one who wrote God;s commandments and helps us keep them. Why one would think faith would be rebelling against the Holy Spirit. We are told its the opposite Heb 3:7-19 By doing the same thing that separated us from God Isa 59:2 is going to reconcile us when the Bible clearly tells us that's not so Rev 22:14-15

Those who do not subject themselves to God's law are still in the carnal mind, which cannot please God

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You obviously believe that man is not fallen and he is born with two natures, "a sin nature, which hates God, and a Holy nature which hates sin and loves God". This sounds like a bi polar, type of nature, you're suggesting that man has the Spirit of Satan and the Holy Spirit in him when he is born and the wise guys fight and overcome their wicked nature, and use the faith they conjured up to cash in on Gods offer of salvation.

Please do not speak for me. Thanks

Your version of the gospel, just doesn't line up with the one in the Bible.

I'm not sure why you reject what Gods Word clearly says about faith, below ---
Ephesians 2:8-10
you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Faith does not void the Law it establishes it. Rom3:31 Why does one believe faith means being disobedient to God? Its doesn't its what the other spirit wants us to believe sadly to be lost Rom 8:7-8

Jesus said:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, (believers)’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The Bible is a big book for a reason, never meant to pick one Text you like and not harmonize with the rest of the Bible.

While we are saved by grace through faith, the fruit we bear demonstrate if our faith is genuine or not. Keeping God's commandments is a fruit of salvation Rev 14:12 not a means to it, if one does not subject themselves the Law of God I would consider more time in prayer asking for God's help to change the carnal mind to a spiritual mind Psa 19:7

 

[Dan1988]

I choose Him everyday. He's the best thing going and I thank Him for showing me something trully, ineffably Good and worthy of my love and adoration in this otherwise god-forsaken hopeless world. Sometimes I stray, however, fool that I am, proving that I'm still capable of a compromised loyalty, distracted and drawn to lesser, created things now and then over Him; sometimes I sin, IOW, not yet perfected in the love that He gives me.

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you.

According to the Lord Jesus, we don't choose Him, He choses us. And I appreciate your honesty in admitting that you don't always abide in Him, and you do stray away from Him. The good news is, that our unfaithfulness is not a deal breaker, because our salvation is not dependant on our fidelity but it's wholly dependant on His faithfulness, which is imputed to us.

Born again believers, don't attain sinless perfection in this life, but we will be resurrected and given a glorified, immortal, sinless body, free of any corruption. So we will become Christlike, while in this life we're followers of Christ, in a body which still retains some of our old sin nature, which still cries out to have it's lusts fulfilled and it does overwhelm us at times.

There is no sin, which God doesn't forgive His children, when we repent and confess our sins.

 

[fhansen]

You did not choose Me but I chose you.

As stated over and over in one way or another, grace precedes everything. He comes to and call us first. But then, if we answer the call, we must remain in Him. And I've seen far too many instances of those confident of their steadfastness, who failed to remain. Those who pesersevere to the end are the good soil.

 

[Dan1988]

Can you quote where I said this please.

Through Christ abiding in Him. I'll share what that looks like

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He [a]takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

The Holy Spirit is the one who wrote God;s commandments and helps us keep them. Why one would think faith would be rebelling against the Holy Spirit. We are told its the opposite Heb 3:7-19 By doing the same thing that separated us from God Isa 59:2 is going to reconcile us when the Bible clearly tells us that's not so Rev 22:14-15

Those who do not subject themselves to God's law are still in the carnal mind, which cannot please God

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Please do not speak for me. Thanks

Faith does not void the Law it establishes it. Rom3:31 Why does one believe faith means being disobedient to God? Its doesn't its what the other spirit wants us to believe sadly to be lost Rom 8:7-8

Jesus said:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, (believers)’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The Bible is a big book for a reason, never meant to pick one Text you like and not harmonize with the rest of the Bible.

While we are saved by grace through faith, the fruit we bear demonstrate if our faith is genuine or not. Keeping God's commandments is a fruit of salvation Rev 14:12 not a means to it, if one does not subject themselves the Law of God I would consider more time in prayer asking for God's help to change the carnal mind to a spiritual mind Psa 19:7

Your theology seems to be inconsistent, in the sense that you're holding on to this doctrine that you made yourself alive IOW "resurrected" yourself from the dead and gave yourself a new Spirit.
I have never come across anything that would support your version of the gospel. Please explain how you resurrected yourself from the dead. I though that only God can do that.

God said you were born dead in your sin, you say "no I was not born dead in sin" and I was able to change my sin nature and create my own faith to cash in on Gods promise. I don't find anything in the Bible to support your version of the gospel.

If you don't believe that faith is a gift which God gives those He purposed to save, and you don't believe that you created your own faith, then please let me know where you got this faith which saved you.

"If" is not a command, do you agree or disagree. When Jesus said "if you abide in Me" you twist it to mean, "I command you to abide in Me" and it simply doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not sure why you're struggling to understand such a simple word.

Jesus never commanded anyone to do anything, He simply asked questions like "do you believe in Me", so He's actually asking a question and not giving a commandment, why must you change the meaning of what he's saying, can't you just believe it as He said it.
It's quite disrespectful to Jesus, because it's like saying "'oh excuse me Jesus, but aren't you trying to say, "I command you". Don't you think Jesus would have said that if He wanted to. I don't get why some have an irresistible urge to twist the meaning of scriptures by removing words and adding other words to make it say something completely different.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Your theology seems to be inconsistent, in the sense that you're holding on to this doctrine that you made yourself alive IOW "resurrected" yourself from the dead and gave yourself a new Spirit.
I have never come across anything that would support your version of the gospel. Please explain how you resurrected yourself from the dead. I though that only God can do that.

God said you were born dead in your sin, you say "no I was not born dead in sin" and I was able to change my sin nature and create my own faith to cash in on Gods promise. I don't find anything in the Bible to support your version of the gospel.

If you don't believe that faith is a gift which God gives those He purposed to save, and you don't believe that you created your own faith, then please let me know where you got this faith which saved you.

"If" is not a command, do you agree or disagree. When Jesus said "if you abide in Me" you twist it to mean, "I command you to abide in Me" and it simply doesn't make any sense at all. I'm not sure why you're struggling to understand such a simple word.

Jesus never commanded anyone to do anything, He simply asked questions like "do you believe in Me", so He's actually asking a question and not giving a commandment, why must you change the meaning of what he's saying, can't you just believe it as He said it.
It's quite disrespectful to Jesus, because it's like saying "'oh excuse me Jesus, but aren't you trying to say, "I command you". Don't you think Jesus would have said that if He wanted to. I don't get why some have an irresistible urge to twist the meaning of scriptures by removing words and adding other words to make it say something completely different.

I am saying we can be transformed through the Holy Spirit and became a new creature in Him Rom 6:1-4 John 14:15-18 John 5:5-10. Those who refuse to subject themselves to the law of God are enemies to Gods not my word Rom8:7-8. Gods law is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 Jesus doesn't even make us obey on our own, nor can we, but rebelling against God is not faith. Its sin.

Faith does not void the Law Rom 3:31 why Jesus said why do you call me Lord Lord and not DO the things that I say Luke6:46. Lets not deceive ourselves that faith means not listening to God or doing what He asks. Scripture calls this sin, rebellion and unbelief Heb 3:7-13 and will not be reconciled at His Second Coming Rev 22:14-15 Mat 7:21-23


It might be helpful to actually address the Scriptures posted. I have found it unfruitful to try to reason when someone uses their own logic against what is clearly written. Jesus clearly tells us how we abide in Him and He in us and those who don't their branch is cut off. Faith means hearing, believing doing. I believe faith is active, not passive.

 

[Dan1988]

As stated over and over in one way or another, grace precedes everything. He comes to and call us first. But then, if we answer the call, we must remain in Him. And I've seen far too many instances of those confident of their steadfastness, who failed to remain. Those who pesersevere to the end are the good soil.

The only problem with that is, 100% of believers fail to persevere or abide in Him. Because we are fallen creatures, we don't have the power to persevere. Our lust still cries out to be satisfied and it never stops crying out, until we die. This is why Jesus paid for the past present and future sins of His people.

We are not saved by keeping the law, we are saved because Jesus kept the law on our behalf. The good soil are Gods elect, whom He chose to save before the world was created. Each and every one of them will be saved not not a single one will be lost, no matter how much they sin.

It sounds like your still under the "covenant of the law" which they observed under the old covenant. But we are under a new covenant known as the "covenant of grace"

 

[fhansen]

The only problem with that is, 100% of believers fail to persevere or abide in Him. Because we are fallen creatures, we don't have the power to persevere. Our lust still cries out to be satisfied and it never stops crying out, until we die. This is why Jesus paid for the past present and future sins of His people.

We are not saved by keeping the law, we are saved because Jesus kept the law on our behalf. The good soil are Gods elect, whom He chose to save before the world was created. Each and every one of them will be saved not not a single one will be lost, no matter how much they sin.

It sounds like your still under the "covenant of the law" which they observed under the old covenant. But we are under a new covenant known as the "covenant of grace"

No, we must continue to covet that grace, the heavenly gift we've tasted, and to desire it more and more; we must overcome our lusts to whatever degree He deems appropriate as per Rom 8:12-14. We can't possibly do it alone and yet He doesn't want automatons so He's structured salvation such that we must at least cooperate, we must at least do our part even if it only represents .001% of the effort necessary to begn with. Because in that way we're truly on board and in that way He's truly creating something grand, something greater than He began with, something that has chosen, and grown nearer in likeness to, the Ulitmate Good, not without the prompting and help of grace.

That willingness, opposed to the unwillingness of Adam, is exactly what He's after-what He's cultivating- in us. That's where our justice/righteousness lies. To put it another way, to sum up God's purpose, He's cultivating love in us, a love like His own, a love identified by the greatest commandments. And love requires freedom, in order to be love. Salvation is not just about making it to heaven by the skin of our teeth but about fulfilling the purpose that humans were created for. And at the risk of over-repeating a favorite quote:

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” St Basil of Caesarea

 

[A New Dawn]

Yes, He’s the rest giver not the 4th commandment. The Sabbath is something man does according to God, if that counts Isa 56:2 Exo 20:8-11 its not a commandment for Him to keep so we can profane. God gave rest throughout the Bible, never once does it say it deletes the 4th commandment. In fact, we are told those who enter into Christ rest (where there is no sin) also (which means in addition) ceases from their work as God did Heb4:10 on the seventh day Heb4:4 Exo20:11Gen2:1-3

Why Jesus said Mat 11:28-30 and still kept the Sabbath Luke 4:16 Lev 23:3 as did the apostles Acts 13:42,44 Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 etc Jesus is our example 1John2:6 1Peter 2:21-22

Jesus fulfilling the law is what makes Him the sabbath rest, so of course he obeyed the law while He was living.

 

[A New Dawn]

Nope, I have to do my part in staying true to the relationship, as with any relationship. He's never been interested in robots-or else sin wouldn't have been been possible to begin with, for one thing.

Doing your part is part of sanctification. Sanctification is only possible after we have been justified. If you have to choose Him daily, that suggests that your first “choosing” wasn’t good enough and so you constantly have to be choosing Him. The whole point of Him choosing you is that that is the only way to salvation that doesn’t rely on your own works since HE does the work. And when HE does the work, you don’t need to rely on your imperfect self, where you constantly have to repeat the process since your works will never be good enough.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus fulfilling the law is what makes Him the sabbath rest, so of course he ones the law while He was living.

This is a misunderstanding of the Text and not looking at the entire context. Jesus didn't fulfil the law so we can profane. Why He said just a couple verses down.

Mat5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This understanding makes zero sense if fulfilling the law meant we didn't have to keep. This is a huge warning Jesus is saying. Jesus does not want us to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments. This is so plain. If we look at the next verse least in heaven means not there. Mat5:20 which also matches His other teachings Mat7:23 Rev22:15

Jesus never came to destroy the law or prophets but to fulfill. It was prophesized that Jesus would magnify His laws Isa 42:21 which means make greater, not smaller. Just like Jesus never came to end the prophecies of His Second Coming , yet to be fulfilled, just like He did not come to destroy the law, so fulfill cannot be the same thing to end. It means like fulfilling a wedding covenant- would you consider doing so free one to commit adultery? Jesus does not want us to commit adultery to Him, which we do when we break the first 4 commandments Exo 20:1-11 how to love God. Jesus wants us to love our neighbor which is fulfilled by keeping the last 6 of the commandments Rom 13:9

Why Jesus said

Mat 5: 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Which means Jesus never turned into the 4th commandment so we do not need to keep it holy as He commanded. The Sabbath is something man does Isa 56:2 why we see the faithful apostles doing on every Sabbath Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44 Acts 15:21 Acts 16:13 Acts 18:4 etc

Why we are told this guards the gates of heaven and His saints are welcomed because they DO His commandments Rev22:14-15

We are told we also need to fulfil the righteous requirement of the law in us, those who walk in the Spirit, not the flesh. Rom 8:4. Paul tells us what it means to walk in the flesh- not being subject to the law of God Rom8:7-8 Those walking in the Spirit through love/faith are keeping His commandments John14:15-18 Acts 5:32 Rev 14:12 which reconciles us Rev22:14

We need to study the Bibles for ourselves and not listen to popular teachers and preachers that are teaching things that tickles the ear 2Tim4:3-4 so we won't be cheated

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Doing your part is part of sanctification. Sanctification is only possible after we have been justified.

Even if I agreed with that, sanctification is both a necessity and an option, as Rom 6 and 8 make clear. As it is, justification and sanctification are inseparable, are part and parcel of the same thing, sanctification being the proper growth in the justice (righteousness) first received at justification.

If you have to choose Him daily, that suggests that your first “choosing” wasn’t good enough and so you constantly have to be choosing Him.

If I fail to choose Him daily that only means I end up being poor soil, not persevering, not remaining in Him, not valuing the relationship, not appreciating the grace, the love received. Choosing Him daily is only to fullfill His own directive:
Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. Luke 9:23

The whole point of Him choosing you is that that is the only way to salvation that doesn’t rely on your own works since HE does the work. And when HE does the work, you don’t need to rely on your imperfect self, where you constantly have to repeat the process since your works will never be good enough.

He gives grace to all, some will respond and repent and follow, others will not. And unless our imperfect selves improve to one degree or another, unless we wash our robes by and with the power of the Spirit, we won't be seeing Him. Gal 5:13-21, Gal 6:7-8, Rom 8:12-14, Rev 21:6-8, Rev 22:12-15