How do we set aside the grace of God?

[Soyeong]

I first heard of character traits from you, so why should I define them. Righteousness is to be in right standing with God. that means God does not hold anything against you. You are sinless in His eyes.

John 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. NASU

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. People are sinners because they do not believe in Jesus.

Romans 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NKJV

In the past, prior to Jesus' death on the cross. God did not punish anyone for their sins. He punished them for not believing that He would send a savior.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASU

Above is what God judged people for when they died after Jesus came. Those who believe in Jesus will go to Heaven. Those who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell.

The reason why I asked you to define what it means for someone to have a character trait in general and what it means for someone to attain a character trait in general is because I want you to think about what those things mean, to understand that distinction, and understand what the Bible says about righteousness in light of this simple meaning, but you are refusing to recognize this distinction. It is easy to affirm that the way to become righteous is by believing in Jesus, but when you refuse to recognize that distinction, then it is also easy for you to misunderstand the way to believe in Jesus.

 

[fli]

The reason why I asked you to define what it means for someone to have a character trait in general and what it means for someone to attain a character trait in general is because I want you to think about what those things mean, to understand that distinction, and understand what the Bible says about righteousness in light of this simple meaning, but you are refusing to recognize this distinction. It is easy to affirm that the way to become righteous is by believing in Jesus, but when you refuse to recognize that distinction, then it is also easy for you to misunderstand the way to believe in Jesus.

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. NASU

So, you say God lied to Abraham? If Abraham still had to do something to earn his righteousness, he was not really righteous because when God imputed righteousness to him.

 

[Soyeong]

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. NASU

So, you say God lied to Abraham? If Abraham still had to do something to earn his righteousness, he was not really righteous because when God imputed righteousness to him.

I have never claimed that we need to do anything in order to earn our righteousness, but rather I have said that the one and only way to become righteous is through faith, and I have corrected on this before, so why are you continuing to burn that straw man instead of interacting with what I’ve said?

 

[Guojing]

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. NASU

So, you say God lied to Abraham? If Abraham still had to do something to earn his righteousness, he was not really righteous because when God imputed righteousness to him.

When God told Abraham to be physically circumcised in Genesis 17:14, otherwise he will be cut off from God, could Abraham have refused to do so by saying "Did you lie to me, didn't I receive imputed righteousness in Genesis 15 already?

 

[fli]

When God told Abraham to be physically circumcised in Genesis 17:14, otherwise he will be cut off from God, could Abraham have refused to do so by saying "Did you lie to me, didn't I receive imputed righteousness in Genesis 15 already?

So, God accounted righteousness to Abraham about 13 years after the event in Genesis 15. Where do you find this special revelation in the bible?

Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
NASU

Paul was under the impression Abraham was accounted righteous before he was circumcised.

 

[Guojing]

So, God accounted righteousness to Abraham about 13 years after the event in Genesis 15. Where do you find this special revelation in the bible?

Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
NASU

Paul was under the impression Abraham was accounted righteous before he was circumcised.

Are you answering my question? Could Abraham had refused physical circumcision at Genesis 17 and not be cut off from God?

If you are saying yes, then say it.

 

[fli]

Are you answering my question? Could Abraham had refused physical circumcision at Genesis 17 and not be cut off from God?

If you are saying yes, then say it.

Yes, Abraham could have refused to be circumcised and still have been righteous. It is sheer speculation what would have happened to Abraham if he refused circumcision. God did not say Abraham's righteousness came from his being circumcised. Abraham's righteousness came from his believing God, not in being obedient to God. In Abraham's being obedient about circumcision, he became known as the father of Israel and the father of those who have the faith of Abraham. He was rewarded for his obedience as we are today after we pass the point of eternal life.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, Abraham could have refused to be circumcised and still have been righteous.

Alright, if you ever faced the Great Tribulation, try accepting the mark of the beast, after you believed in God, and we will see whether you can still claim that "righteousness was always thru faith alone".

 

[fli]

Alright, if you ever faced the Great Tribulation, try accepting the mark of the beast, after you believed in God, and we will see whether you can still claim that "righteousness was always thru faith alone".

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law NASU

So, you believe salvation is through works not faith? Justification apart from works means your works have nothing to do with your salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. NASU

Paul wrote we could build with good works (precious metals and jewels) or flammable materials (sins). The flammable materials would be burnt up but the man would be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. NASU

Paul recommended the young man be turned over to Satan, meaning He believed the man was saved. If the man did not repent, he would die under his discipline, and his spirit would be saved.

1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. NASU

Paul in verse 30 said some Corinthians had gone to sleep, Paul's way of saying a Christian died and went to heaven, under chastisement. Those Corinthians had their alcoholism burnt away and got into heaven smelling of smoke.

Works have nothing to do with salvation. Works do have something to do with the strength of our faith. The more works we do, the more treasure we lay up in heaven. That means our faith will be stronger and we will be able to withstand trials and not fail. But the works do not get us into heaven. We make it to heaven only through our faith. Stronger faith means we will likely be able to stand up to the beast and not get his mark.

 

[Guojing]

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law NASU

So, you believe salvation is through works not faith? Justification apart from works means your works have nothing to do with your salvation.

Salvation has always been by faith. (Hebrews 11:6)

Salvation has not always been by faith alone (James 2:24, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:9-12)

You understand the difference between these 2 statements?