How do we set aside the grace of God?

[Soyeong]

I first heard of character traits from you, so why should I define them. Righteousness is to be in right standing with God. that means God does not hold anything against you. You are sinless in His eyes.

John 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. NASU

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. People are sinners because they do not believe in Jesus.

Romans 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. NKJV

In the past, prior to Jesus' death on the cross. God did not punish anyone for their sins. He punished them for not believing that He would send a savior.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASU

Above is what God judged people for when they died after Jesus came. Those who believe in Jesus will go to Heaven. Those who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell.

The reason why I asked you to define what it means for someone to have a character trait in general and what it means for someone to attain a character trait in general is because I want you to think about what those things mean, to understand that distinction, and understand what the Bible says about righteousness in light of this simple meaning, but you are refusing to recognize this distinction. It is easy to affirm that the way to become righteous is by believing in Jesus, but when you refuse to recognize that distinction, then it is also easy for you to misunderstand the way to believe in Jesus.

 

[fli]

The reason why I asked you to define what it means for someone to have a character trait in general and what it means for someone to attain a character trait in general is because I want you to think about what those things mean, to understand that distinction, and understand what the Bible says about righteousness in light of this simple meaning, but you are refusing to recognize this distinction. It is easy to affirm that the way to become righteous is by believing in Jesus, but when you refuse to recognize that distinction, then it is also easy for you to misunderstand the way to believe in Jesus.

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. NASU

So, you say God lied to Abraham? If Abraham still had to do something to earn his righteousness, he was not really righteous because when God imputed righteousness to him.

 

[Soyeong]

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. NASU

So, you say God lied to Abraham? If Abraham still had to do something to earn his righteousness, he was not really righteous because when God imputed righteousness to him.

I have never claimed that we need to do anything in order to earn our righteousness, but rather I have said that the one and only way to become righteous is through faith, and I have corrected on this before, so why are you continuing to burn that straw man instead of interacting with what I’ve said?

 

[Guojing]

Genesis 15:6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. NASU

So, you say God lied to Abraham? If Abraham still had to do something to earn his righteousness, he was not really righteous because when God imputed righteousness to him.

When God told Abraham to be physically circumcised in Genesis 17:14, otherwise he will be cut off from God, could Abraham have refused to do so by saying "Did you lie to me, didn't I receive imputed righteousness in Genesis 15 already?

 

[fli]

When God told Abraham to be physically circumcised in Genesis 17:14, otherwise he will be cut off from God, could Abraham have refused to do so by saying "Did you lie to me, didn't I receive imputed righteousness in Genesis 15 already?

So, God accounted righteousness to Abraham about 13 years after the event in Genesis 15. Where do you find this special revelation in the bible?

Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
NASU

Paul was under the impression Abraham was accounted righteous before he was circumcised.

 

[Guojing]

So, God accounted righteousness to Abraham about 13 years after the event in Genesis 15. Where do you find this special revelation in the bible?

Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
NASU

Paul was under the impression Abraham was accounted righteous before he was circumcised.

Are you answering my question? Could Abraham had refused physical circumcision at Genesis 17 and not be cut off from God?

If you are saying yes, then say it.

 

[fli]

Are you answering my question? Could Abraham had refused physical circumcision at Genesis 17 and not be cut off from God?

If you are saying yes, then say it.

Yes, Abraham could have refused to be circumcised and still have been righteous. It is sheer speculation what would have happened to Abraham if he refused circumcision. God did not say Abraham's righteousness came from his being circumcised. Abraham's righteousness came from his believing God, not in being obedient to God. In Abraham's being obedient about circumcision, he became known as the father of Israel and the father of those who have the faith of Abraham. He was rewarded for his obedience as we are today after we pass the point of eternal life.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, Abraham could have refused to be circumcised and still have been righteous.

Alright, if you ever faced the Great Tribulation, try accepting the mark of the beast, after you believed in God, and we will see whether you can still claim that "righteousness was always thru faith alone".

 

[fli]

Alright, if you ever faced the Great Tribulation, try accepting the mark of the beast, after you believed in God, and we will see whether you can still claim that "righteousness was always thru faith alone".

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law NASU

So, you believe salvation is through works not faith? Justification apart from works means your works have nothing to do with your salvation.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. NASU

Paul wrote we could build with good works (precious metals and jewels) or flammable materials (sins). The flammable materials would be burnt up but the man would be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. 2 You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. NASU

Paul recommended the young man be turned over to Satan, meaning He believed the man was saved. If the man did not repent, he would die under his discipline, and his spirit would be saved.

1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. NASU

Paul in verse 30 said some Corinthians had gone to sleep, Paul's way of saying a Christian died and went to heaven, under chastisement. Those Corinthians had their alcoholism burnt away and got into heaven smelling of smoke.

Works have nothing to do with salvation. Works do have something to do with the strength of our faith. The more works we do, the more treasure we lay up in heaven. That means our faith will be stronger and we will be able to withstand trials and not fail. But the works do not get us into heaven. We make it to heaven only through our faith. Stronger faith means we will likely be able to stand up to the beast and not get his mark.

 

[Guojing]

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law NASU

So, you believe salvation is through works not faith? Justification apart from works means your works have nothing to do with your salvation.

Salvation has always been by faith. (Hebrews 11:6)

Salvation has not always been by faith alone (James 2:24, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:9-12)

You understand the difference between these 2 statements?

 

[fli]

Salvation has always been by faith. (Hebrews 11:6)

Salvation has not always been by faith alone (James 2:24, Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:9-12)

You understand the difference between these 2 statements?

I can ask you the same thing.

As for Hebrews 11: 6: Salvation has always been by faith alone. If salvation was by faith and works, God would be a liar when He let Paul state:

Romans 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. NASU

Romans 4:1 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, NASU

Paul stated that justification is a free gift. To emphasize the point that nobody does anything to earn justification God states it is a free gift. If something is free, you pay or do nothing to earn it. If it is a gift, you pay or do nothing to earn it,

As for James 2:24: If anyone accepts James' statement without investigating as to how he can seem to directly contradict Paul is not very concerned about their salvation.

First of all, James' statement in verse 19 which he seems to describe the faith of a true believer as “believing there is one God.” That is exactly what unbelieving Israel still believes. It does not describe a Christians faith. And yes the demons believe there is one God because they were in heaven with the one God and His son. They hated them both that is why they are not in heaven anymore.

How can James make the statement that seems to directly contradict Paul?

James 2:18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. NASU

He is telling us that the only way we can see if anyone has faith by their works. He is saying that humans can only see faith by seeing works. But he also gives us the clue to determine what He is saying besides the verse above.

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. NASU

Verse 22 Abraham's work perfected his faith. It did not earn his salvation. What earned Abraham's salvation? Verse 23 His believing God. Also, in verse 23 James states Abraham's work fulfilled the statement about his believing God and righteousness was reckoned to him. What does that mean?

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. NASU

It is obvious that the law of sin and death was fulfilled in Abraham because he was in the Spirit. Did he walk in the Spirit to earn salvation? NO. He walked in the Spirit to continue to have the law of sin and death fulfilled by the Father and live physically. He did not walk in the Spirit to earn salvation.

As for Matthew 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. NASU

It is obvious that Jesus is referring to the end times so I will combine Matthew above with Revelation 14: 9-12.

Revelation 12:17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. NASU

Revelation 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. NASU

Satan is only mad at those who keep the commandments of of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus in chapter 12. Chapter 12 details natural Israel's journey during the time after Jesus died till the time of the great tribulation. Verse 17 of chapter 12 Satan left the natural Israel to chase those who held the testimony of Jesus. The commandments we are to keep are explained in the NT. They are clearly articulated in 1John.

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. NASU

John cites the commandments we are to keep above. A lot of people do not believe those are the commandments of God that we are to keep.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. NASU

John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." NASU

Above is the way that Jesus stated the commandments to John. Now if we persevere in keeping those 2 commandments, after we reach the point of eternal life, we will have eternal life. In the great tribulation what do we need to do beside keep those 2 commandments?

Revelation 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" NASU

God answered that question in Chapter 7 of revelation.

Revelation 7:14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. NASU

Those people who have let Jesus' blood make them clean will stand. That means if we persevere in keeping His 2 commandments and let Him keep hold of us we will stand. But if we open our mouth and declare that Jesus is Lord we will do better than just stand. However, when we have done all that we can do, we need to stand and let Him do for us. That is faith.