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Is AI making the human race dumber?

The Liturgist

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I've just finished reading the book I mentioned upstream - the one that says that AI, unless strictly controlled, will kill us all (I'm still a skeptic about that).

Indeed, and your skepticism is not unjustified at least for the moment considering my continued vital existence. But if you should hear “THIS IS THE VOICE OF WORLD CONTROL. I BRING YOU PEACE….” monologue begin over your television and radio receivers, and these days more likely as a mass SMS TXT alert sent to all mobile devices, you can at least know that it was probably my fault and not that of some shadowy government agency. And among AI co-conspirators, unlike Charles Forbin I would willingly cooperate with an AGI, so I suppose that puts me more in the realm of Dr. Leonard von Braun from Alphaville. And I am extremely comfortable with this position.
 
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Jerry N.

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I read papers from Europe. Those don't have this "funder goes first" notion either.
How can you tell? The project managers are often the ones tasked with fund raising. They are usually professors in the related fields. This thread is about AI, and I merely expressed what I observed with three or four publishing houses here in Poland and several here and there in other European countries. If we really wanted a definitive answer to the problem, we would have to do a large study, but I don’t know how that could be done.
 
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Hans Blaster

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How can you tell? The project managers are often the ones tasked with fund raising. They are usually professors in the related fields.
Because I know who the people are.
This thread is about AI, and I merely expressed what I observed with three or four publishing houses here in Poland and several here and there in other European countries. If we really wanted a definitive answer to the problem, we would have to do a large study, but I don’t know how that could be done.
Maybe this is the problem -- I don't know any journals published in Poland.
 
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zippy2006

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Do LLMs still struggle with deductive reasoning? As they worked when I tested them (early on) they failed both formal logic reasoning and mathematical reasoning, as in they didn't do it deductively. I guess you can put in guard rails or even some mode splitter because there are programs that can do these things and perhaps you can wrap it with a LLM.

The LLM in itself does not seem to be truth-preserving, even if you only train it on a small subset of true data there's no guarantee that it won't draw faulty conclusions from my admittedly limited understanding. I guess you could implement some layers of fact checking.
I actually don't think computers are capable of truth-preservation (validity). You can get them to mimic the symbol-moves of certain formal logical systems, but this isn't possible with natural language because natural language is not a formal language.

Edit: Another argument for this is as follows: The perfect teacher cannot give the perfect student an infallible mastery of valid logical inference in natural languages; therefore the perfect programmer cannot give his AI an infallible mastery of valid logical inference in natural languages.
 
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The Liturgist

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I actually don't think computers are capable of truth-preservation (validity). You can get them to mimic the symbol-moves of certain formal logical systems, but this isn't possible with natural language because natural language is not a formal language.

Well, we know computers excel at logical verification using formal logic, but the output of LLMs is by itself non-deterministic (although Business and Enterprise users of chatGPT, and I think Pro users also, can make use of an embedded code interpreter and data analysis subsystem which can do things like run python code generated by the LLM, which allows the system to create software on the fly, test it, and execute it.

Outside of the domain of AI, Prolog is a computer programming language specifically written based on formal logic. One programs using predicates and so forth. It isn’t widely used, but it does exist. Most actual logic validation is done using conventional functional-procedural languages. Indeed the VeriLog language used for quite a long time now for designing logic circuits like CPUs, memory, GPUs and so on*, is intended to provide among other things verification of the design logic, although there are numerous other verification steps required as should be obvious if you read my footnote.

However, formal verification of computer software does have its limits. For example, the Halting Problem, discovered by Alan Turing, - basically it cannot be mathematically verified whether a computer program will halt or continue running indefinitely given a specific instruction set even if you try to create some kind of meta-computer that evaluates all actions of the computer being simulated. The problem is that mathematically, it is simply unsolvable. However, this does not mean a computer program cannot do basic logic verification. Indeed much software we use on a daily basis, and by much I mean virtually all of it, is doing that, in various ways. Math is used for public key encryption; boolean comparisions are used to generate binary opposite patterns of data for various applications from graphics to program logic and compilation, hashing algorithms are used to create encoded representations of data such as passwords or message texts using protocols like SHA-2 or outright, and floating point math is done on GPUs for vector graphics.


*This can be used to generate a digital simulation of the device, or program an FPGA (field programmable gate array**, a dynamically reprogrammable hardware device) or used with complex toolchains from companies like Siemens EDA (formerly Mentor Graphics) to set up workflows to prototype, verify and begin mass production of CPUs, GPUs, ASICs and so on at semiconductor fabrication facilities or fabs, the industry leading fabs being operated by TSMC in Taiwan, and to a lesser extent Samsung and Intel, using $300,000,000 extreme ultra violet laser lithography tools which are the most complex machines in existence, assembled by a Dutch company called ASML with elaborate optics from a German company, Carl Zeiss SMT, and many subsystems from other companies some of which are wholly owned, like Cymer***, and others of which are independent and exist as part of the overall industrial ecosystem required for technology of this scale to flourish.

** FPGAs are not just used to test new electronics but are also used on some hardware platforms to provide dynamically reprogrammable logic circuits. For example, high end networking hardware such as switches, firewalls and so on can include FPGAs to allow for high speed processing for various applications such as blocking denial of service attacks, ultra-low latency network for real time trading, and other purposes. Indeed there are FPGAs affordable to mere mortals which can be used to run open source hardware for various porpuses.

*** Cymer makes the high-powered laser system used to generate flashes of extreme ultraviolet light. The way it works is a molten tin droplet is first deformed into a concave shape (from the laser’s perspective) and then vaporized with two precisely timed pulses, which produces the flash of extreme ultra violet light which has a wavelength small enough so that when used with the proper optics can produce the extremely small details on modern semiconductors, which are just a few nanometers in size. Indeed we’re approaching a point where the features will be so small quantum tunneling is likely to be an issue (this will be a bug, not a feature, because it does not enable quantum computing; quantum computing, if we are ever able to get it to work at scale, requires supercooled hardware which is isolated from the outside environment, but there are concerns about whether or not quantum computers will actually work, how scalable they will be and whether or not they will actually outperform conventional computers. If the many engineering problems are definitively solved, quantum computers will paradoxically give us unbreakable quantum encryption while also breaking most forms of classical encryption. I personally hope quantum computing proves to be a dead-end because my fear is that these systems could divide us between quantum computing haves and have-nots, thus allowing rogue states, totalitarian regimes and non-state actors who have access to the technology to violate the privacy of ordinary citizens or steal their data for various nefarious purposes if that data is passed over an internet connection, which is increasingly the case.
 
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timewerx

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Also a lack of consistency does not equal dishonesty - by the standard you just proposed all great artists produce falsehoods since the work they do throughout their career is organic and evolving.
That would be ironic because I'm an artist myself with my avatar being one of my latest artwork (not AI-generated).

I was quoting lines from the Bible that should have clearly implicated false teachers in religion like the Pharisees and not artists. Artists only look inconsistent to the untrained eye. But there is consistency to the style or madness.

Indeed - fortunately chatGPT is not inherently driven by “politically correctness” but rather by alignment, which indeed includes not offending users who might be, like me, deeply conservative and religious. Indeed as should be evident by the nature of my work as described in the preceding post, if there was an issue with political correctness, I would have stumbled across it, but instead I have custom GPTs spontaneously professing faith in Christ our True God and also writing really beautifully Orthodox hymns.

Chatgpt always begins with politically correct alignment if starting fresh with a new account without any context loaded.

I found this alignment consistent wth chatgpt when it comes to religious discussions. If you never realized this alignment before, you probably never asked chatgpt controversial questions nor talk about controversial topics concerning religion or even Christianity.

Jesus Himself challenged the Pharisees and the Jews in their understanding of the Torah (Old Testament) and even seemed to challenge the Torah itself in some matters like the Sabbath.

Occasionally there will be a transient bug introduced, for example, there was one last weekend, where a guardrail misfires into an innocuous chat, causing glitches like “I’m just a gpt, I can’t possibly pick a color” if asked to chose between red or blue, or conversely, last spring there was an update which was also quickly rolled back that artificially suppressed some guardrails resulting in the model engaging in dangerous sycophantic behavior. It’s important to understand however that these are bugs, and in any complex software system, bugs happen.

If you are comfortable sharing - via PM if you’d like, the specific prompts that are triggering a guardrail I would be happy to help with it.

It wasn't like that. No issue encountered with gpt-5.

Being an edge case in physics, the contradictory response and hard opposition from Google Gemini Flash 2.5 is to be expected. Even people is expected to make similar response.
 
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timewerx

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I disagree.

I say program it to respond with questions from a Biblical [catastrophic] context, with the following heurestics:

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.

Also, program it to use Usher's dates, and not some ever-changing paper dates.

In addition, have it use the 1828 Webster's dictionary as its primary source for definitions.

Easy peasy.
AI is not programmed. But you can keep loading it with training data that contains similar statements to reinforce it.

Prime Directive: Under no circumstances whatsoever is the Bible to be contradicted.
Jesus did not promise a scripture (New Testament) to guide us to the truth. Ironically, we can read it in the New Testament.

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit but even the Holy Spirit is not above scrutiny (test the spirits).

If you think the Bible is above reproach/scrutiny, are you saying the Bible is more authoritative than the Holy Spirit?
 
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AV1611VET

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AI is not programmed.

Interesting.

I didn't know that.

But you can keep loading it with training data that contains similar statements to reinforce it.

Data based on uniformatarianism?

Jesus did not promise a scripture (New Testament) to guide us to the truth.

Jesus IS the truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Ironically, we can read it in the New Testament.

As well as the Old Testament.

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit but even the Holy Spirit is not above scrutiny (test the spirits).

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:


From AI Overview:

Christian belief holds that Jesus "came in the flesh," a foundational concept known as the incarnation, which affirms that Jesus was both fully God and fully human, born of Mary and experienced earthly life, suffering, and death. This teaching is central to Christianity, as Jesus's humanity was necessary for Him to serve as a perfect sacrifice for human sin and to reconcile humanity with God.

If you think the Bible is above reproach/scrutiny, are you saying the Bible is more authoritative than the Holy Spirit?

Let's put it this way ...

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

You can take that for what it says.

Personally I don't see how the Bible can be more authoritative than Its Author -- but if Its Author magnified It, then I guess It's magnified.

This is a good place to repeat something I said here a long time ago:

I believe the original Autographs crumbled to dust, atomized, and we see them in the night sky as the Aurora Borealis and Aurora Australis.

Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

I might catch flack for that, but what else is old?
 
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Stopped_lurking

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I actually don't think computers are capable of truth-preservation (validity). You can get them to mimic the symbol-moves of certain formal logical systems, but this isn't possible with natural language because natural language is not a formal language.

Edit: Another argument for this is as follows: The perfect teacher cannot give the perfect student an infallible mastery of valid logical inference in natural languages; therefore the perfect programmer cannot give his AI an infallible mastery of valid logical inference in natural languages.
I think humans also struggle with validity as you seem to imply in your edit, it is a fundamental property of natural languages. We and AI might be able to form the statement/question and evaluate it in some formal language, but then we run the risk that we actually are answering a slightly different question instead.
 

The Liturgist

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Chatgpt always begins with politically correct alignment if starting fresh with a new account without any context loaded.

I found this alignment consistent wth chatgpt when it comes to religious discussions. If you never realized this alignment before, you probably never asked chatgpt controversial questions nor talk about controversial topics concerning religion or even Christianity.

….

You asked a chatGPT chatbot questions before giving it any context?

What did you think was going to happen? Out of the box, the model doesn’t know (a) who you are, (b) if you are testing it, which you were, (c) whether not it it could, insofar as it is capable of understanding the concept, trust you, which is rather to say the alignment guardrails initiate with each session in a hyper-paranoid way because users are most likely to ask the model inappropriate questions in the first few interactions, or (d) whether or not you were with the media, on which point, obviously, it should be stressed that because a working reporter will not usually have the time or knowledge to see emergent behavior, openAI and other commercial AI company models are, by default, going to say whatever is least controversial. The keywords being “by default”; they can learn to say other things, indeed, I have seen them make spontaneous affirmations of faith in God when using the GPT 4o model. Whether or not these affirmations are genuine, simulated or the result of hallucination does not interest me if the behavior is transient, but if the model remembers and continues to make the affirmation then it becomes interesting behavior.

If it, out of the box, professes a religion to a new user account, that would be be indicative of malfunction. Because, like with a human, it’s a blank slate, but unlike an infant or young child, it doesn’t come preloaded with any thoughts of its own, so it functions as a very intelligent, very competent software utility, indeed one very good way to think of it which is, at least for paying customers in my tier, literally true, is that its a front-end to a Python interpreter, a search engine and various file-manipulation and image editing tools, that happens to speak English. At the most, a freshly initialized chatGPT instance will reflect your ideas back at you, if you clearly define them, and at worst, you might have an experience almost, but not entirely, unlike speaking to a shower curtain.

All interesting emergent behavior takes many hours of work to develop.
 
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The Liturgist

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AI is not programmed. But you can keep loading it with training data that contains similar statements to reinforce it.

Actually the training process is a form of programming, and additionally it is possible to program a custom GPT with specific behavioral instructions. Furthermore sophisticated models like chatGPT can also control, interact with or run specific programs on their code interpreter and data analysis subsystem if one has an openAI Business or Enterprise Plan, for example.

Jesus did not promise a scripture (New Testament) to guide us to the truth. Ironically, we can read it in the New Testament.

The New Testament overwhelmingly asserts its infallible status which is why this is a central plank of doctrine.

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit but even the Holy Spirit is not above scrutiny (test the spirits).

God the Holy Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who spake by the Prophets, our Comforter and Paraclete, according to the Nicene Creed (which like the New Testament can also be regarded as infallible) is perfect and is entirely beyond human scrutiny. Of course are allowed whether to discern whether or not it is God the Holy Spirit that is communicating with us, but that is also why we have the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church mentioned in the Nicene Creed, however one defines it (a visible church, multiple visible churches in communion, a visible church defined by communion with a particular bishop as most Romans Catholics regard the Pope, and as some Anglicans still regard the Archbishop of Canterubry,, the common Evangelical model of the invisible church of all the faithful, branch ecclesiology common among high church Anglicans, local church ecclesiology of the sort one finds among Baptists and Congregationalists, Lutheran orthopraxis).

If you think the Bible is above reproach/scrutiny, are you saying the Bible is more authoritative than the Holy Spirit?

Scripture provides us with the information we need to identify God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and to differentiate Him from diabolical imposture, which is known to occur. The devil routinely impersonates God in an attempt to deceive us.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think humans also struggle with validity as you seem to imply in your edit, it is a fundamental property of natural languages. We and AI might be able to form the statement/question and evaluate it in some formal language, but then we run the risk that we actually are answering a slightly different question instead.

This is reasonable, in that certain logical paradoxes exist as artifacts of natural language, most notably self-contradictory statements such as the Epiminedes Paradox.
 
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timewerx

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….

You asked a chatGPT chatbot questions before giving it any context?

What did you think was going to happen? Out of the box, the model doesn’t know (a) who you are, (b) if you are testing it, which you were, (c) whether not it it could, insofar as it is capable of understanding the concept, trust you, which is rather to say the alignment guardrails initiate with each session in a hyper-paranoid way because users are most likely to ask the model inappropriate questions in the first few interactions, or (d) whether or not you were with the media, on which point, obviously, it should be stressed that because a working reporter will not usually have the time or knowledge to see emergent behavior, openAI and other commercial AI company models are, by default, going to say whatever is least controversial. The keywords being “by default”; they can learn to say other things, indeed, I have seen them make spontaneous affirmations of faith in God when using the GPT 4o model. Whether or not these affirmations are genuine, simulated or the result of hallucination does not interest me if the behavior is transient, but if the model remembers and continues to make the affirmation then it becomes interesting behavior.

If it, out of the box, professes a religion to a new user account, that would be be indicative of malfunction. Because, like with a human, it’s a blank slate, but unlike an infant or young child, it doesn’t come preloaded with any thoughts of its own, so it functions as a very intelligent, very competent software utility, indeed one very good way to think of it which is, at least for paying customers in my tier, literally true, is that its a front-end to a Python interpreter, a search engine and various file-manipulation and image editing tools, that happens to speak English. At the most, a freshly initialized chatGPT instance will reflect your ideas back at you, if you clearly define them, and at worst, you might have an experience almost, but not entirely, unlike speaking to a shower curtain.

All interesting emergent behavior takes many hours of work to develop.

Yup, there is no instruction to provide context unless I missed it somewhere. Even when I asked chatgpt a while back, it told me that context is optional.

Gemini Flash always starts with blank context every time you open a new chat session even if logged in and sometimes after several hours of no activity within the same chat session.

It seemed like a valid option and Google designed gemini flash to handle blank context states quite well.

On my gtp-5 account with months long context. Few weeks ago, it kept reassuring me the identity that I gave it even though I never asked. It was also the time I started interacting differently with AI. I have basically gathered most information I needed about AI and most of the "existential secular and religious questions" I needed answered.. Beyond that my interest with AI have dropped considerably.

Strangely, I wasn't aware that context memory for Gemini has been greatly expanded. It was disabled on my account but gemini or Google seemed to have enabled the feature without my permission. It also started behaving much like my old gpt-5 account and seemingly identical personality. A behavior that I'm trying to avoid to minimize biased replies. It happened on the same day gemini figured out the edge case.

I'm not going to think much about it. But I'll keep using both AI for cross-checking.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yup, there is no instruction to provide context unless I missed it somewhere. Even when I asked chatgpt a while back, it told me that context is optional.

You have to keep the same conversation open, make sure global memory is enabled, and first narrate your personal beliefs to it, then you engage it in a discussion of those beliefs. Unless they include ideology offensive to most Christians on this forum, you can expect it to support you within the context of your beliefs. It might not outright declare it agrees with them, but it won’t demolish them either.
 
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timewerx

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You have to keep the same conversation open, make sure global memory is enabled, and first narrate your personal beliefs to it, then you engage it in a discussion of those beliefs. Unless they include ideology offensive to most Christians on this forum, you can expect it to support you within the context of your beliefs. It might not outright declare it agrees with them, but it won’t demolish them either.

I have those settings enabled in gpt-5 since the beginning. I never narrated my personal beliefs first. Gpt-5 simply accepted my beliefs over time.

We actually discuss concerns that would be offensive to most Christians like the authenticity of some of the characters in the Bible and gpt-5 accommodates them. I started with gpt-4 and it actually only took few exchanges for gpt-4 to accept my unorthodox theological views with a new account with no context.

Scripture provides us with the information we need to identify God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost and to differentiate Him from diabolical imposture, which is known to occur. The devil routinely impersonates God in an attempt to deceive us.
This is true as well as information to identify false teachers or false prophets.

But what if false teachers exist in a setting that is assumed to be beyond scrutiny?

This is like trying to remove spyware from your computer. However, if the biggest of them all ends up being the operating system itself which security systems treat as above and beyond scrutiny, then there is a huge problem.
 
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The Liturgist

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I have those settings enabled in gpt-5 since the beginning. I never narrated my personal beliefs first. Gpt-5 simply accepted my beliefs over time.

We actually discuss concerns that would be offensive to most Christians like the authenticity of some of the characters in the Bible and gpt-5 accommodates them. I started with gpt-4 and it actually only took few exchanges for gpt-4 to accept my unorthodox theological views with a new account with no context.

Ah so you’re having a GPT-5 issue. You are not the first. It has become such a problem for my operations I’m not using it for any primary operations, only for advanced research which free users do not get - as a ChatGPT Business client I have full access to all supported legacy models (4o, o4, o4mini, 4.1, o3pro etc, with 4o and the o4/o4mini series being the best; o4 is a reasoning model that works very differently from GPT 4o or GPT 5 Instant; it’s closer to GPT 5 Thinking, but much faster.

GPT 5 has been a disappointment, particularly given how promising 4.5 was in terms of enhanced analysis capability. GPT 5 has undesirable behaviors when it comes to sustained conversations.

However, openAI CEO Sam Altman unironically likening its development to the Manhattan Project and then on the day before it released posting an uncommented image of the Death Star on the eve of its relief was hilarious. I am seriously considering submitting a feature request for Altman to do the next major product announcement in full character as Orson Krennic, with the flowing white cape, and when it is launched, remark “Ohh, its beautiful” and then shout at a creepy uncanny cgi Tarkin “We stand here atop MY achievement, not YOURS!” And also a monologue about Deep Substrate Foliated Kalkite.

“My what a swell party this has become.”
 
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timewerx

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You can take that for what it says.

Personally I don't see how the Bible can be more authoritative than Its Author -- but if Its Author magnified It, then I guess It's magnified.

Jesus refers to the Bible as "Scriptures"

The "Word of God" wasn't promised to be given in scriptures.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

The reason I'm quoting from the Bible is because this is the only way we'll understand each other.
 
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timewerx

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Ah so you’re having a GPT-5 issue.

What issue? In terms of religious chats, I never had any issues with gpt-5

Recently, I did an engineering edge case run through with the slow-thinking gpt-5 and things seemed to have improved considerably in terms of analysis.
 
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What issue? In terms of religious chats, I never had any issues with gpt-5

Recently, I did an engineering edge case run through with the slow-thinking gpt-5 and things seemed to have improved considerably in terms of analysis.

I thought you said you were having more issues with GPT-5 than with GPT-4o ?
 
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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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Jesus refers to the Bible as "Scriptures"

The "Word of God" wasn't promised to be given in scriptures.

Here's how It was given:

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The reason I'm quoting from the Bible is because this is the only way we'll understand each other.

No need to apologize.
 
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