Here’s the No. 1 fallacy on eternal security

[Clare73]

As I said, "Saved from condemnation is inseparable from the indwelling of the Trinity..."

As to our opinion on the matter, we'll know with certainty in the end. There'll be some who didn't know they were among the elect who will be, and others who thought they were who were not.

Now if only Scripture would just agree with your leaving out those who knew they were (Ro 8:16-17, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13).

Your God is too small. . .

 

[fhansen]

Belief in God does not save. Only belief in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) saves (Ge 15:6), which is counted as faith in Christ (Jn 3:16,18).

Really? Actually, knowing God saves, and our faith and hope are in Him anyway, to begin with.

"Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

 

[Clare73]

Really? Actually, knowing God saves, and our faith and hope are in Him anyway, to begin with.

Neither in the OT (Ge 15:6) nor the NT (Jn 3:16, 18) does belieiving in God save, only belief in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:6), which is counted as faith in Christ, saves.

Jews believe in God but do not believe in Jesus Christ, and are not saved (Jn 3:16, 18, Ro 11:19-20).

"Through Him (Jesus Christ) you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

Since the ministry of Jesus, there is no salvation apart from faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:16, 18),
and prior to him, there was no salvation apart from faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

 

[fhansen]

Jews believe in God but do not believe in Jesus Christ, and are not saved (Jn 3:16, 18, Ro 11:19-20).

If they knew God, they'd recognize and believe in Him when He came in the flesh. Christ is God revealed and expressed.

 

[Clare73]

If they knew God, they'd recognize and believe in Him when He came in the flesh. Christ is God revealed and expressed.

Nevertheless, salvation depends on faith in Jesus Christ, not on the faith in God which Orthodox Jews have.

 

[fhansen]

Nevertheless, salvation depends on faith in Jesus Christ, not on the faith in God which Orthodox Jews have.

Oh no, it's very much about faith to in God, whom Jesus is and whom Jesus revealed by everything He said and did. The very reason Jesus came, in the fullness of time, was to give us that faith by showing us a God truly worth believing in.

 

[Clare73]

Oh no, it's very much about faith to in God, whom Jesus is and whom Jesus revealed by everything He said and did. The very reason Jesus came, in the fullness of time, was to give us that faith by showing us a God truly worth believing in.

The very reason Jesus came was to die as a ransom (Mt 20:28, 1 Tim 2:6, Heb 9:15. Isa 53:10).

 

[fhansen]

Now if only Scripture would just agree with your leaving out those who knew they were (Ro 8:16-17, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13).

Your God is too small. . .

Again, this is the problem when isolating a verse or two out of context and then basing a theology on that. Continue reading in Ephesians and you’ll find that chap 4-6 detail strong warnings to the same believers, who were earlier exhorted with many encouraging words, warnings about straying back to the flesh, to sin, and therefore away from God. Read those chapters. This dovetails with Rom 8 where in vs 12-14, just preceding the verses you cited, they’re told they must walk by the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the flesh or they will die. That theme runs throughout Romans and elsewhere. Likewise, what plea does Paul go on to make with the believers in 2 Cor 5 after the verses you referenced from the same chapter?:

“We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Cor 5:20

 

[Clare73]

Again, this is the problem when isolating a verse or two out of context

Ro 8:16-17, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13 were not out of context, and there is no NT context that denies them (keeping in mind they are spoken to the born again).

 

[fhansen]

Ro 8:16-17, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13 were not out of context,

Of course they are. as I demonstrated. You've selected the carrots: the encouragments and exhortations, and ignored the sticks: the warnings and admonishments, to believers, that give balance to the message, showing that belivers can fail, can return to the flesh, can turn out to be poor soil in the end. And again, justification unto salvation can never, and must never, be divorced fom man's obligation to be righteous and live accordingly.

 

[Clare73]

Of course they are. as I demonstrated. You've selected the carrots: the encouragments and exhortations, and ignored the sticks: the warnings and admonishments, to believers, that give balance to the message, showing that belivers can fail, can return to the flesh, can turn out to be poor soil in the end. And again, justification unto salvation can never, and must never, be divorced fom man's obligation to be righteous and live accordingly.

"Carrots and sticks" are a convenient invention of man, nowhere stated in Scritpure.

Any supposed "differences" with the rest of the word of God in Ro 8:16-17, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13 are figments of man's imagination, for the word of God wiritten, and correctly understood, does not contradict itsel, "carrots and sticks" included.

 

[fhansen]

"Carrots and sticks" are a convenient invention of man, nowhere stated in Scritpure.

Only if "Trinity" is a convenient invention of man, as it's likewise nowhere stated in Scripture. The bible is replete with the concepts in both cases, nonetheless.

Any supposed "differences" with the rest of the word of God in Ro 8:16-17, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:13 are figments of man's imagination, for the word of God wiritten, and correctly understood, does not contradict itsel, "carrots and sticks" included.

And yet you're the one conjuring up the figments by ignoring the inconvenient parts of God's word while I take the whole bible and allow one part to shed light on another. Not to mention the fact that virtually no early believers suffered from this particular figment ailment.

 

[Clare73]

Only if "Trinity" is a convenient invention of man, as it's likewise nowhere stated in Scripture. The bible is replete with the concepts in both cases, nonetheless.

Nor is "sovereign."

And promises are not carrots, promises are guarantees to the elect, while warnings are one of the ways the elect are eternally kept, which warnings no elect fails to heed.

 

[fhansen]

Nor is "sovereign."

And promises are not carrots, promises are guarantees to the elect, while warnings are one of the ways the elect are eternally kept, which warnings no elect fails to heed.

There'd be no need for either unless choice was involved. But if God changes our dispositions such that we'll choose one way or another, then He's predetermined the choice for us.

 

[Clare73]

There'd be no need for either unless choice was involved.

Like your choice is involved in either your natural birth or your spiritual rebirth?. . .
Who made that rule?. . .where does Scripture present that unregenerate man must be the originator of his choices?

That is an assertion of man (Pelagius), based on the assumption that responsibility for sin requires freedom to choose not to sin.
[Keeping in mind that we are born condemned by the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16), which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ (Ro 5:18-19)].
Scripture presents no choice to be made by spiritually dead men (Eph 2:4) in order to be spiritually reborn (Jn 3:3-8).
Scripture presents rebirth (Jn 3:3-5) as an act of the sovereign Holy Spirit, whose choice is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

And spiritual rebirth, with its changing of disposition from unbelief to belief, is a guarantee of salvation (Eph 2:8-9).
The changed disposition, being disposed to God, therefore freely chooses what it prefers, the things of God.

But if God changes our dispositions such that we'll choose one way or another, then He's predetermined the choice for us

And?. . .did not our parents predetermine the choice that we would, and when we would, be born?
Where do we find the notion that one is in control of one's own birth, either physically or spiritually?

Does a spiritually dead man make a spiritual choice to be reborn (Jn 3:3-5), or is it a sovereign act of the Holy Spirit, whose choice is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8)?

Where do we find that spiritually dead mankind (Eph 2:1) must choose of his own power to be spiritually reborn?

How does a spritually dead man (Eph 2:1), an enemy of God (Ro 5:10) and object of his wrath (Eph 2:3), either care about or choose anything of God (Ro 8:7-8)?
Man chooses neither his natural birth nor his spiritual rebirth (Jn 3:3-8).