Sabbatarianism

[ralliann]

Who is the "They", Mary and the Disciples who clearly understood the Sabbath Jesus was "Lord of", or the mainstream preachers of that time who had polluted God's sabbath, and were teaching for doctrines the commandments of men?

Yes, Passover was "Preparation Day" for the First Day of Unleavened Bread. That is why it was important, to fulfill all Righteousness, that Jesus was placed in the grave before sundown, the end of Passover.


How did "who" do "what"?

They would have followed God's Instruction in the Torah.


The day God created is 24 hours. There are 7 days in a week, according to the God "of the bible". Romans didn't create the "DAY" God did.

"And the evening and the morning were the first day". Each day has a "day" and a "night", and starts with the Night. I'm not sure why you would imply that the day and night Jesus referred to was a "Roman Day".



What exactly is "Judaism" in your religion? Was it living by the Spiritual Word of God as Jesus and the examples of Faithful men given us in scriptures did? Or is "Judaism" the "Jews religion" that taught for doctrines the commandments of men, not God, polluted God's Sabbaths, and persecuted the Church of God?.

You need to define the context of your use of this world, before we can have a honest discussion about it.


Of course they did, sacrifices were made in the day, not the night. By definition, morning comes after night. Darkness dwelled on the earth, before Light. Darkness first, then Light. ignorance first, and then wisdom. 6 days of work first, then Rest.

I'm OK with that.



Look, I understand how important religious traditions are, and how far men will go to defend and preserve them. I know there is no Biblical instruction to turn away from God's Sabbath, to the Catholic Sabbath. I know that God knew the Day the Prophesied Messiah would be raised from the dead, from the foundation of the World.

I also know from experience, that "many", who call Jesus Lord, Lord, will never turn away from their religious traditions, which is shown to me in the scriptures over and over and over and over and over.

I am happy to discuss with you the spiritual meaning of the daily sacrifices, "made by fire" etc., in a different thread. But this thread is about God's sabbaths. let's stay focused on that.



In your religion, this might be true. But according to Moses and the Prophets, the Feast Day begins at evening.

Jesus ate the Last supper with His Disciples after sundown on the 13th of Nisan, which would be the 14th of Nisan. After the Passover meal, Jesus

went to Gethsemane, and prayed, "at night" before the morning of Passover. In the morning HE was betrayed by Judas, tried, beaten stripped and crucified, all in the same day, Passover, which had begun the night before. And He was placed in the Grave "Before" the High Sabbath of the First day of Unleavened bread.

So it's right there in your own Bible.

Read the story of the Passover in Moses Time.

Ex. 12: 9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain "until the morning"; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

Passover begins at sundown, at least according to the Holy scriptures.


Personally, I don't know what you mean by "Judaism". I understand Passover by reason of use. Not really interest in the Talmud, or the Jews religion, nor the Catholic religion and her Protestant daughters religious traditions and philosophies. I'm more interested in what the Scriptures actually teach and how they help me to "know the One True God" that Jesus wants me to know.

I am talking about Jews that kept these things in Jesus day and The Judaism that existed in Jesus day.

 

[DamianWarS]

I still don't understand how we can wave away one of the Ten commandments when the other nine still apply. Surely the fourth still applies. And if so, doesn't that negate Sunday altogether as a holy day of worship? Also there is the missing commandment to worship on Sunday.

I can follow the 10 ritually yet still hate my neighbor and even hate God. The 10 do not call for a heuristic guided by love as Christ calls us to, they follow broadly "do not's" or obstaining from more of your deadly evils than they do about doing good but can be void of love.

For example in the parable of the good Samaritan the Jews that passed the man in the ditch were not violating the 10 in anyway, yet complety miss the point or love. So the 10 can not be seen as exhaustive are more of a core values springboard for love that Christ shows us.

The 10 are a type of polemic to surrounding cultures by affirming a monotheistic God (1-3) cultural and social values to keep order (5-10) and redeeming otherwise pagan days of observance (4). They are there to set the Hebrews away from competitive values of polytheisic worship and every man for himself rule for foundational order/values under monotheism.

Saying don't profane God's name, or don't keep idols, or don't have any other gods seems implied under monotheistic rule as anything to the contrary is not monotheistic but these were challenging values of the day that needed to be emphasized and learnt. Jews of the 1st century would stone a jew for anything close to paganism, and by that time monotheism was so fully instilled in them that commandments 1-3 no longer challenged them. It would be the same as saying the earth is a sphere today, although at one time it was a controversial statement, today it is so well accepted that nothing else is taken seriously.

But commandments 1-3 were needed and without them idolatry and pagan practices would take over. They needed hard rules to ensure they keep in line with monotheism because cultural trends of the day were pagan driven.

Commandments 5-10 are generally about how we treat each other, they are not about loving each other, but rather about not wronging each other which is a different focus but still needed in its day to keep rule and going against cultural trends of the day.

So what of the 4th? Well the 4th redeems the 7 day week from pagan practice. Babylonians used a 7 day week to venerate the known planets of the day seen by the naked eye (moon and sun where included but earth was not counted). Sabbath was venerated too by not working, it was more hiding from the wrath of the venerated god (Saturn) than it was of worship (we still call it saturn's-day). But this is why 7 is chosen and not some other system (the Bible never unpacked why the system under 7)

There was need to depaganise these trends of the day so rather erase the system, it is redeemed to honor God over honoring pagan systems. The 4th also has deep theological values baked in pointing ultimately to Christ not a day.

We don't wave away the 10 but through revelation we can value it at a higher level, to start we love each other rather than just avoiding evil. the 4th does not exalt a day which is a counter gospel value, but rather it exalts Christ and is the more important value we should keep. The 7th day is set apart form the other days and called holy. Today we are the ones set apart and called holy, not from anything we have done, but only through Christ and it is he that we keep in all moments and this keeps the 4th on a higher level not merely its pagan polemic of yesterday that's long gone.

 

[Studyman]

I am talking about Jews that kept these things in Jesus day and The Judaism that existed in Jesus day.

I agree, "Judaism" was the Pharisee's religion, or as Paul called it, "The Jews Religion".

So God sent Jesus in a world where the mainstream religion, "who professed to know" the God of Abraham, was the Pharisees and the Sadducees religion. Paul was a zealous member of this religion during the lifetime of Jesus on earth, and even participated in the murder of Stephen several years after Jesus ascended.

This was a widely adopted religion that persecuted the Church of God and killed the Prophets God sent to them. According to the Scriptures, they had polluted God's Sabbaths, despised His Judgments and "full well rejected" the Commandments of God that they might live in their own religious traditions. Jesus said they "Taught for Doctrines the Commandments of men", not God. HE said, and I believe Him, that they claimed trust in Moses, even claimed to promote the Law of Moses, but they didn't believe Moses. "They SAID THEY DID", they "SAID" they were children of Abraham, but they were not. They had been given God's Laws by Moses, by the disposition of Angels, but refused to keep them. Paul said they had been given the Oracles of God, but didn't believe them. That they were ignorant of God's Righteousness, and had gone about establishing their own righteousness, refusing to submit to the Righteousness of God. Jeremiah said they were corrupt shepherds who led His people astray.

Not all men had adopted this religion and had become children of the devil. Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men where members of the Church of God and had not adopted the "Jews religion" or as we have established, "Judaism". Jesus convinced many to leave the mainstream religion of the world God placed them in, and join themselves to the Lord, the Head of God's Church.

In Romans 11, Paul was teaching folks the same thing.

 

[ralliann]

I agree, "Judaism" was the Pharisee's religion, or as Paul called it, "The Jews Religion".

So God sent Jesus in a world where the mainstream religion, "who professed to know" the God of Abraham, was the Pharisees and the Sadducees religion. Paul was a zealous member of this religion during the lifetime of Jesus on earth, and even participated in the murder of Stephen several years after Jesus ascended.

Thank you. When we read the Gospels we read in context of how they practiced and considered the days and the counts.
Civil calendar day of the month (begins at night), verses Liturgical days (morn and even sacrifices "daily") , and feasts days (evening to evening spanning parts of two calendar days.). This includes the judaic "inlusive counting"
The rest of your problems with Catholicism has nothing to do with what I am getting at.