I hold a view similar to the Open View of God.

[Strong in Him]

I see this as meaning, like the Gentiles are now God's chosen people, that God had always planned this to occur.

That's not what is says.

We were a chosen people, in Him, in Christ.

We ARE a chosen people - God chose us before the creation of the world.
He always knew us and that we would belong to him.

 

[Dan Perez]

That's not what is says.

We ARE a chosen people - God chose us before the creation of the world.
He always knew us and that we would belong to him.

And that verse is in. Eph 1:4. , just. as HE CHOSE us , BEFORE. // PRO , the OVERTHROW. OF THE WORLD !! YOU. have it right on. !!

dan p

 

[FutureAndAHope]

That's not what is says.

We ARE a chosen people - God chose us before the creation of the world.
He always knew us and that we would belong to him.

God does not pick and choose a little group of "sheep". He wants "all" to come to the truth.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

​

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (NKJV, 1Timothy 2:3-6)​

​

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​

​

God loves the whole world, everyone He has made. We need to see people through God's eyes, as loved, valued. Every person marked out for salvation, although not all will follow.

 

[David Lamb]

God does not pick and choose a little group of "sheep". He wants "all" to come to the truth.

For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. (NKJV, 1 Timothy 4:10)​

​

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (NKJV, 1John 2:2)​

​

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (NKJV, 1Timothy 2:3-6)​

​

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'​

​

God loves the whole world, everyone He has made. We need to see people through God's eyes, as loved, valued. Every person marked out for salvation, although not all will follow.

Who said anything about a little group? Revelation talks of the redeemed as a multitude which no man can number. It is strange how those who don't believe in God's election often seem to give the false idea that those of us who do believe it also believe that only a few will be saved.

 

[BeyondET]

I know what you were suggesting about that scripture I meant if the following is not to be taken literally. How should it be interpreted?

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

I think God literally was grieved in His heart, though He literally didn't wipe out all of mankind nor all the animals.

 

[Strong in Him]

God does not pick and choose a little group of "sheep". He wants "all" to come to the truth.

Where did I say otherwise?

As a Methodist, I certainly believe that all can be saved - although not all will be.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Who said anything about a little group? Revelation talks of the redeemed as a multitude which no man can number. It is strange how those who don't believe in God's election often seem to give the false idea that those of us who do believe it also believe that only a few will be saved.

It is not about how many will be saved. But rather "who" God desires salvation for. All people are a target of God's redemption, not a "preselected" group.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is not hard for God to know man "may" sin. He need not know they would. He only had to have provision for the fact that they might.



All of these things can be attributed to God's planning, and in the case of Peter, knowing Peter's heart, and the test that was coming to him; they need not rely upon "perfect foreknowledge".



Not at all God can put constraints on what creation, can, and can not do. The world is not going to crumble if God has given genuine free choices to mankind.




If God is as powerful and creative as we imagine HIm to be, would He not rather experience the highs and lows of interacting with His creation, rather than imposing a linear will upon them.

Regardlessof all of that scientifically, it is possible that one can move through time in both forward and backwards directions (according to chatgpt). If this is the case; it is certainly possible for God to traverse time. Some things He may "know" due to an ability He has to manipulate time. If He has foreknowledge, it is not due to a lack of us being truely free agents.

One of Justin Martyr's students summed it up this way:

The Logos, too, before the creation of men, was the Framer of angels. And each of these two orders of creatures was made free to act as it pleased, not having the nature of good, which again is with God alone, but is brought to perfection in men through their freedom of choice, in order that the bad man may be justly punished, having become depraved through his own fault, but the just man be deservedly praised for his virtuous deeds, since in the exercise of his free choice he refrained from transgressing the will of God. Such is the constitution of things in reference to angels and men. And the power of the Logos, having in itself a faculty to foresee future events, not as fated, but as taking place by the choice of free agents, foretold from time to time the issues of things to come; (Tatian 110-172 AD, Address to the Greeks Chapter 7)

Apparently you can't see that your structure makes God subject to facts greater than himself. For example, you make him subject to mere chance, which is a self-contradictory notion. Chance can cause nothing. Do you suppose God was wandering about aimlessly and came upon a set of principles he made use of to create a universe? The principles, logic and reality itself, are God's doing. He is not subject to them, even if he does subject himself to them for a purpose. He is not a resident within a larger reality the way we are.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is not about how many will be saved. But rather "who" God desires salvation for. All people are a target of God's redemption, not a "preselected" group.

Assertion. In our many many interactions, I have yet to see proof of this, though, granted, you have tried...

 

[Fervent]

Open theism diminishes God not only in His omniscience, but in His omnipresence. When God says He is the beginning and the end He is affirming that He is already present at the end of the world. While we traverse time, it is always present to God. When Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" He spoke of this omnipresence, though Abraham's time had long since passed for those in HIs company it had not passed for Him.

Open theism speaks of a God that can fail, not the God that has already won the victory.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Apparently you can't see that your structure makes God subject to facts greater than himself. For example, you make him subject to mere chance, which is a self-contradictory notion. Chance can cause nothing. Do you suppose God was wandering about aimlessly and came upon a set of principles he made use of to create a universe? The principles, logic and reality itself, are God's doing. He is not subject to them, even if he does subject himself to them for a purpose. He is not a resident within a larger reality the way we are.

Luke 12:47-48 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

To each of us are committed certain facts; God has given us the ability to reason, if we use our reason to keep on sinning, we will be punished. If we use our reason to make right choices, we will deliver our soul.

Over time, we form a nature. One that either accepts or pushes away God. God is long-suffering, giving us many chances to reform our nature. But ultimately, it is by our deeds that we will be judged.

Rom 2:4-11 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

You said that God is not subject to mere chance, but it is not mere chance, not like rolling a die, it is more complex than that. Realistically, God is not subject to anything He has made. Do you think He can not constrain man's choices in such a way that He maintains His power.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Open theism diminishes God not only in His omniscience, but in His omnipresence. When God says He is the beginning and the end He is affirming that He is already present at the end of the world. While we traverse time, it is always present to God. When Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" He spoke of this omnipresence, though Abraham's time had long since passed for those in HIs company it had not passed for Him.

Open theism speaks of a God that can fail, not the God that has already won the victory.

What type of God is more of a failure, one who "actively plans", "by His will", to damn mankind because of His wrath? Or one who tried to redeem man, but man fails to respond, contrary to His desire?

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[Fervent]

What type of God is more of a failure, one who "actively plans", "by His will", to damn mankind because of His wrath? Or one who tried to redeem man, but man fails to respond, contrary to His desire?

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

You completely missed the point, open theism forwards a God whose promises can't be trusted because He doesn't know the end from the beginning.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

To each of us are committed certain facts; God has given us the ability to reason, if we use our reason to keep on sinning, we will be punished. If we use our reason to make right choices, we will deliver our soul.

Salvation by choice is just another works Gospel that seeks to eliminate God out of the equations so we can make our good choices that save us and then God is forced to bail us out to heaven, because we did good.

It's really utter nonsense, that our choices save us. No one can choose themselves into a state of sinlessness to begin with. Evil comes built in to our system and it can not be stopped.

Did the evil present within anyone "choose Jesus to save them?" It never happened.

Did the evil present within anyone choose to "activate Jesus to save us?" Again, never happened.

EVIL was in fact peeled back off our eyes and heart BY GOD NO LESS, long enough to SEE, so that the child of God would be saved.

The very FACT that we have to make a choice between GOOD and EVIL means that there is EVIL WITHIN us all. Don't you see that? And Jesus said a mere evil lawless thought DEFILES us, Mark 7:21-23. Yes, a mere evil lawless thought. Defiled.

That ^^^ is why we can only be saved by the Grace and Mercy of God in Christ. Not by works. No works eliminate EVIL PRESENT.

We are all defiled by CHOICES.

No one becomes 'less the sinner' by choosing. That's simply hypocrisy. Our evil thoughts that we have to supposedly "choose from" are no better than the evil thoughts of others. The church has confessed from the beginning that we have sinned in THOUGHT, WORD AND DEED. Why? Because it's the TRUTH.

We never stopped being a sinner, ever, by choices.

Have you always, only and ever only chose the good side? Great! Now have you always only and ever only THOUGHT the good side? Uh, never. Choice only means there is EVIL on the inside that must be engaged and rejected but the point of the exercise is to know it's there to start with.

But no choice on the outside eradicated the evil within. Never does that happen.

Most are simply blissfully unaware of this simple fact. I might even venture the less choice we're presented with, the better off we are but that's never the case either.

What prompts these choices to rise to the surface is the Word, ever Living. So even the arousal of CHOICE comes from God. And included in that rising is the CHOICE OF EVIL, as an option because it's inside TO CHOOSE from.

God is not going to justify any man based on their choices because there is defiling evil within, regardless.

ALL will only have ONE VERDICT at the end, and that verdict for everyone can only by GUILTY. Romans 3:19

Wouldn't you rather stand HONESTLY before your Maker? Why in the world would anyone want to stand as a LIAR? I can't imagine insulting God in Christ any more than that

Some will walk away from this exercise with the gift of honesty, even though it is self deprecating. To that I say GOOD!

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

It is not about how many will be saved. But rather "who" God desires salvation for. All people are a target of God's redemption, not a "preselected" group.

Foreknowledge or predestination is believed by every Christian if you thought about it for a minute.

God PREDESTINED Satan and his messengers for the LoF.

Never was salvation for devils ever on His Agenda

Now do you believe in "predestination?" Surprise me.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Foreknowledge or predestination is believed by every Christian if you thought about it for a minute.

God PREDESTINED Satan and his messengers for the LoF.

Never was salvation for devils ever on His Agenda

Now do you believe in "predestination?" Surprise me.

In regard to devils your idea that they are "predestined" is not supported by Early Christian sources.

... Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be... (Justin Martyr 110 - 165, Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 140)

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... ( Justin Martyr 110 - 165, Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141)

1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. (Irenaeus120-202, Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37)

The Logos, too, before the creation of men, was the Framer of angels. And each of these two orders of creatures was made free to act as it pleased, not having the nature of good, which again is with God alone, but is brought to perfection in men through their freedom of choice, in order that the bad man may be justly punished, having become depraved through his own fault, but the just man be deservedly praised for his virtuous deeds, since in the exercise of his free choice he refrained from transgressing the will of God. Such is the constitution of things in reference to angels and men. And the power of the Logos, having in itself a faculty to foresee future events, not as fated, but as taking place by the choice of free agents, foretold from time to time the issues of things to come; (Tatian 110-172 AD, Address to the Greeks Chapter 7)

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Did the evil present within anyone "choose Jesus to save them?" It never happened.

The bible throughout says that by our deeds we will be judged. The cross is a part of that. God opens our eyes, and ears, to His truth. If our heart softens toward God, we will accept it, if we have heardened our heart in sin, we will reject it. MAny people stuggle for years "deciding" if they willl follow Christ. There are many arguments for and against, we gravitate toward a decision.

Joh 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."


Salvation definitely has a "deeds" component.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

There is definitely a point where God opens our eyes, but our reasoning, choices, deeds, are important to the outcome.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Each of us daily make choices to sin or not, temptation is daily before us. But we must all strive against it.

Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The bible throughout says that by our deeds we will be judged.

Uh, no, more than just deeds:

Matthew 12:36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The cross is a part of that. God opens our eyes, and ears, to His truth. If our heart softens toward God, we will accept it, if we have heardened our heart in sin, we will reject it.

The evil in no one "accepts God" because it is of the devil.

Paul said even when he did good evil was present with him and that he did evil, even after salvation. Romans 7:19-21

I'd at least think we'd try to be as honest as Paul, wouldn't you?

MAny people stuggle for years "deciding" if they willl follow Christ. There are many arguments for and against, we gravitate toward a decision.

People are blinded to the Gospel by the devil, the spirit of disobedience. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

Why blame people when we have a definite culprit staring right at us?

Joh 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Are you going to credit God only for your good deeds or ALL of them?

Do you always only and ever do only good deeds? Only speak good words? Only have good thoughts? Never once have a temptation thought by the tempter?

Salvation definitely has a "deeds" component.

Yes, supposedly love of our neighbors, NOT condemning them to burn alive forever. <---Hey, is that a deed?

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

There is definitely a point where God opens our eyes, but our reasoning, choices, deeds, are important to the outcome.

Everyone does good and evil. Those who claim they never do evil are simply deceived by the very evil they have.

There is no worse evil than evil in a person saying it doesn't exist because that marks a lying hypocrite under control of our adversary who actually hates our neighbors so much that they promote them to burn alive forever.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity,

Baloney. How many prophets do you want to see persecuted in the Bible?

If we are not chastised, we're called bastards:

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Even enemies of the Gospel are saved, don't you know? Romans 11:26-32

Each of us daily make choices to sin or not, temptation is daily before us. But we must all strive against it.

Yes, you seem to be missing the fact that evil is within to struggle with. None of that evil will ever be justified.

IF you did not have evil and temptations within there would be no struggles.

That working can simply never be justified in anyone. The general point.

And the second observation is that no choice eliminates the fact of its presence.

Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.

Sin is of the devil. The devil doesn't stop sinning because you decided otherwise.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Uh, no, more than just deeds:

Matthew 12:36

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Hebrews 4:12

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


The evil in no one "accepts God" because it is of the devil.

Paul said even when he did good evil was present with him and that he did evil, even after salvation. Romans 7:19-21

I'd at least think we'd try to be as honest as Paul, wouldn't you?

People are blinded to the Gospel by the devil, the spirit of disobedience. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2

Why blame people when we have a definite culprit staring right at us?

Are you going to credit God only for your good deeds or ALL of them?

Do you always only and ever do only good deeds? Only speak good words? Only have good thoughts? Never once have a temptation thought by the tempter?



Yes, supposedly love of our neighbors, NOT condemning them to burn alive forever. <---Hey, is that a deed?

Everyone does good and evil. Those who claim they never do evil are simply deceived by the very evil they have.

There is no worse evil than evil in a person saying it doesn't exist because that marks a lying hypocrite under control of our adversary who actually hates our neighbors so much that they promote them to burn alive forever.

Baloney. How many prophets do you want to see persecuted in the Bible?

If we are not chastised, we're called bastards:

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


Even enemies of the Gospel are saved, don't you know? Romans 11:26-32


Yes, you seem to be missing the fact that evil is within to struggle with. None of that evil will ever be justified.

IF you did not have evil and temptations within there would be no struggles.

That working can simply never be justified in anyone. The general point.

And the second observation is that no choice eliminates the fact of its presence.

Sin is of the devil. The devil doesn't stop sinning because you decided otherwise.

No one is saying we have perfectly righteous deeds. It is not by human perfection that we are saved. But there is a level of righteousness that God accepts. Which, rather than call a "deed" I should call it a desire. A desire to do good, to follow God's ways. For many in attempting to do good still stumble.

Luke 17:4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."

But whether we are saved or not is attributed to our heart's condition, as we see below. Jesus even called it our "deeds"

Joh 3:18-21 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Even enemies of the Gospel are saved, don't you know? Romans 11:26-32

Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Luke 16:24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Mar 9:47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire—

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: