Ted Cruz torches Tim Kaine for describing God-given rights as 'very, very troubling'

[Fervent]

And plenty of Christians, if given a choice, would enact their own version of conservative law. One Christian here was using the Bible to explain why women shouldn't vote. In the marriage section, you get people talking about how divorce shouldn't be allowed. These are peers we talk with regularly. The same problems of persecution, violence, and perversion of the word happens to all major religions, Christianity included. The same conversations you're having about the inherent violence of Islam are the same discussions others are having about Christian nationalists. Before 2040, the dominant religion in the world will be Islam, not Christanity. To claim that your religion is the one you choose because you believe it to be true, to allege 2 billion people are following an inherently violent religion despite the majority's ability to live quite peacefully and while ignoring the inherent violence in our own religious text is foolish and hypocritical.

Just an off-the-cuff response, you could assume I do talk about Christianity and defend it as I do about misinformation on Islam or any other religion. Being educated and honest does way more to spark discussions with people than just labeling and dismissing them, especially using inaccurate information. You think somebody who's Muslim will find you to be a good ambassador or witness to the Christian faith if you call them violent and their beliefs rooted in violence, then listen to what you have to say about Christianity? You're listening to a Christian talk about the violent aspects of Christianity and you've shut down, gotten rude, and are being snarky. You think doing that will yield different results to somebody who's Muslim?

All of this shows an ignorance of Islam and how its practitioners operate. A healthy number of Muslims don't speak Arabic, yet their only interaction with the Koran is memorizing it in Arabic. There are threads within Islam that are truly non-violent, such as the Ahmaddi, but those groups are minorities. The locus' of control within Islam repeatedly uphold Salafist interpretations; and unlike in Christianity there is no room for discussion because "the doors of ijithad" are closed. That is not to say every, or even a majority, of muslims believe their religion is inherently violent, but that is largely because most Muslims aren't particularly religious(as is true of a majority of Christians)...but as religiosity increases, the likelihood that they will support or even engage in violence increases because doing so is in keeping with the life and actions of Muhammad.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

You're comparing apples and watermelons. The fundamentalist form of Christianity, taken to mean the form consistent with the teachings and actions of Christ, leads to aggressive pacifism and self-sacrifice. That there exist within the Bible violence, at points commended, is not the same as what is present in Islam. Muhammad was a warlord, and is taken to be the best of humanity by Islam. He tortured people for wealth, took slaves by violence, had multiple sex slaves, beheaded people for not recognizing his prophecy and accepted converts at the threat of beheading. In short, Muhammad was everything that Islam is criticized for.

Deuteronomy 7:1-3. Drive them out, destroy them totally, show them no mercy and make no treaties with them. 1 Samuel 15:3. Kill the men, women, children, and infants. Destroy what belongs to them, even their cows and mules. Deuteronomy 22. If a man rapes a single woman, he pays a bride price and then marries her. If he rapes a married or engaged woman and the rape occurred in the city, they both get stoned to death. Also Deuteronomy, if a man believes he married a non-virgin and it can't be sufficiently proven she was, she is stoned to death. Heck, in... 1 Samuel? David paid for Michal by killing 200 Philistines and giving Saul 200 foreskins. Plenty of violent acts in the Bible, I could keep going.

Now, you and I as Christians can explain that, talk about the nuances of the Bible, old vs. new and all the Biblical changes that have occurred and why we don't pay for women with foreskins or dash infants on rocks... That's why we are Christian. We understand the faith, the context, etc etc.

You, however, are doing what they do to us, only to Muslims. Taking out these segments you don't like, talking about how that's what the extremists follow, then branding the whole of the religion accordingly. No serious discussions about their faith or ours will occur when you launch off into that nonsense.

As for the opinon of people outside the US' opinion, it remains completely removed from what I am pointing out since they aren't looking at what is actually taught by Christianity, instead looking at what a minority do/say that gets sensationalized and then forming an ignorant opinion. When Christians act in violence, they are acting out of character with the central figure; when Muslims act in violence they are acting perfectly in line with the "best of people" according to their religion.

Ok, so switch "Christian" for "Muslim" and "Muslim" for "Christian" and understand that's how a huge chunk of the world legitimately feels, you'll understand the problem.

All I'm seeing in your statement is that extremists exist on both sides, but you're more OK with our extremists because you know them to be fewer and ultimately, as sharing the same faith, you understand they've corrupted the faith and that the guiding principles for most Christians doesn't involve violence... Plus, maybe you have a little overlap in their principles (if not their actions) so their extremism is a bit more palatable. Yet, you won't apply the same principles to another faith with the same issues by their sect of extremists. They're just bad. We aren't bad because of our extremists, but them? Bad.

I am not saying this based on an ignorant appraisal of how a minority of Muslims act, but based on actually reading the koran, hadiths, and sira. It's not that violence is present in the texts, but that everything the terrorists do are in keeping with the life and teachings of Muhammad.

Ditto but Christians. The person who shot the abortion doctor thought they were genuinely doing what God called them to do by the Bible. And there were certainly plenty of people who agreed with that methodology. People on this forum. If our extremists don't make us inherently violent for interpreting the violent portions of the Bible to be violent, the least you can do is extend to another faith the same consideration. Especially given in our lifetime there will be way more of them than us, so clearly the whole of the religion is not one of violence.

 

[RileyG]

Wonder if anyone here studied theology professionally or academically….

 

[Fervent]

Deuteronomy 7:1-3. Drive them out, destroy them totally, show them no mercy and make no treaties with them. 1 Samuel 15:3. Kill the men, women, children, and infants. Destroy what belongs to them, even their cows and mules. Deuteronomy 22. If a man rapes a single woman, he pays a bride price and then marries her. If he rapes a married or engaged woman and the rape occurred in the city, they both get stoned to death. Also Deuteronomy, if a man believes he married a non-virgin and it can't be sufficiently proven she was, she is stoned to death. Heck, in... 1 Samuel? David paid for Michal by killing 200 Philistines and giving Saul 200 foreskins. Plenty of violent acts in the Bible, I could keep going.

Now, you and I as Christians can explain that, talk about the nuances of the Bible, old vs. new and all the Biblical changes that have occurred and why we don't pay for women with foreskins or dash infants on rocks... That's why we are Christian. We understand the faith, the context, etc etc.

It's not simply about being able to explain it, as I said it's not just that violence exists within the Koran. It's that the "best of people" according to Islam embraced the violence when he had the power to, and that the context and proper interpretive framework(where ayah conflict the later ayat abrogates the earlier one) renders the violent verses the final word on the matter. You seem to ignorantly assume that the verses of violence are aberant to the core message of Islam, when in fact outside of groups that add another messianic figure to the mix in the Ahmadiya Islam is consistently interpreted by Muslim authorities to embrace violence.

You, however, are doing what they do to us, only to Muslims. Taking out these segments you don't like, talking about how that's what the extremists follow, then branding the whole of the religion accordingly. No serious discussions about their faith or ours will occur when you launch off into that nonsense.

No, I'm not simply taking verses out of context, but looking at what historic Islamic authorities have said on the matter. It's not just about extremists, when I say "fundamentalist" that is quite different from extremist, it is saying that they are practicing the religion most in keeping with the historic and consistent manner.

Ok, so switch "Christian" for "Muslim" and "Muslim" for "Christian" and understand that's how a huge chunk of the world legitimately feels, you'll understand the problem.

Except there's no reason to make such a switch.

All I'm seeing in your statement is that extremists exist on both sides, but you're more OK with our extremists because you know them to be fewer and ultimately, as sharing the same faith, you understand they've corrupted the faith and that the guiding principles for most Christians doesn't involve violence... Plus, maybe you have a little overlap in their principles (if not their actions) so their extremism is a bit more palatable. Yet, you won't apply the same principles to another faith with the same issues by their sect of extremists. They're just bad. We aren't bad because of our extremists, but them? Bad.

No, I'm pointing out that the central figure of Islam, Muhammad, acted far more in line with the terrorists than with those who don't wage war.

Ditto but Christians. The person who shot the abortion doctor thought they were genuinely doing what God called them to do by the Bible. And there were certainly plenty of people who agreed with that methodology. People on this forum. If our extremists don't make us inherently violent for interpreting the violent portions of the Bible to be violent, the least you can do is extend to another faith the same consideration. Especially given in our lifetime there will be way more of them than us, so clearly the whole of the religion is not one of violence.

The issue is, when a Muslim beheads an infidel they are acting as Muhammad acted. Did Jesus go around shooting people?

 

[RileyG]

Sermon on the Mount. Jesus already addressed those issues when he came to fulfill the law. And yes, I’ve read the Bible cover to cover and am well acquainted with it, thank you very much.

Christianity is not an “eye for an eye” religion. It’s about loving and forgiving your enemies.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Wonder if anyone here studied theology professionally or academically….

I had one year of Bible college long ago. Does that count? (....I have to chuckle because overall, I don't think it does these days.)

 

[RileyG]

I had one year of Bible college long ago. Does that count? (....I have to chuckle because overall, I don't think it does these days.)

Maybe?

 

[Fervent]

Wonder if anyone here studied theology professionally or academically….

I have a Masters of Divinity, does that count?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Maybe?

But yeah, I completely agree that your basic points up in post #65 are cogent and central to any person's claim to the Christian faith.

 

[RileyG]

I have a Masters of Divinity, does that count?

You bet it does! I have a BA in Religious Studies, so I know quite a bit of stuff

 

[RileyG]

But yeah, I completely agree that your basic points up in post #65 are cogent and central to any person's claim to the Christian faith.

Amen! The two greatest commandments. Love God and love your neighbor! Jesus made that abundantly clear!

 

[Fervent]

Christianity is not an “eye for an eye” religion. It’s about loving and forgiving your enemies.

Even "eye for an eye" is often misunderstood, because most of the places it is found is a limitation and not a recommendation. It's simply stating that the punishment should be in keeping with the crime.

 

[RileyG]

Even "eye for an eye" is often misunderstood, because most of the places it is found is a limitation and not a recommendation. It's simply stating that the punishment should be in keeping with the crime.

Yup! Thanks for the info!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I would rather explore questions than defend answers.

 

[A New Dawn]

And plenty of Christians, if given a choice, would enact their own version of conservative law. One Christian here was using the Bible to explain why women shouldn't vote. In the marriage section, you get people talking about how divorce shouldn't be allowed. These are peers we talk with regularly. The same problems of persecution, violence, and perversion of the word happens to all major religions, Christianity included. The same conversations you're having about the inherent violence of Islam are the same discussions others are having about Christian nationalists. Before 2040, the dominant religion in the world will be Islam, not Christanity. To claim that your religion is the one you choose because you believe it to be true, to allege 2 billion people are following an inherently violent religion despite the majority's ability to live quite peacefully and while ignoring the inherent violence in our own religious text is foolish and hypocritical.

Just an off-the-cuff response, you could assume I do talk about Christianity and defend it as I do about misinformation on Islam or any other religion. Being educated and honest does way more to spark discussions with people than just labeling and dismissing them, especially using inaccurate information. You think somebody who's Muslim will find you to be a good ambassador or witness to the Christian faith if you call them violent and their beliefs rooted in violence, then listen to what you have to say about Christianity? You're listening to a Christian talk about the violent aspects of Christianity and you've shut down, gotten rude, and are being snarky. You think doing that will yield different results to somebody who's Muslim?

People have used that technique for years. There was a time in the 70s (I remember) when the Middle East was as progressive as the rest of the world, but the fundamentalist Muslims invaded and took over. It was no longer possible to deal with them in the same way we had before. They don’t recognize the authority or the worth of women, they execute gays in the streets, they rape little girls under the guise of marriage (as well as other horrid sexual practices). Nobody is saying that 1. We have never done those things OR that pockets of hatred don’t still exist here, or 2. They don’t have the right to practice their religion in their own country the way they want (and I guess there are enough of them that would rather close off the western world), but if they want to leave their countries, they need to be able to, if not assimilate with our culture, be able to work well with others. If there is no room for racism and hatred for LGBTQ+ persons in Christianity (as your previous sound off post demanded) then there is no room for it from anyone of any religion or political persuasion. But we don’t see the left making those demands of others, just white Christian people. And IF, when those horrid events happen, committed by a Christian extremist, the left would acknowledge that it is an extremist causing problems and not act as if it is a product of normal Christian teachings and acknowledge that everyone, not just them is horrified by it, then people on the right might not get so upset with the left. You seem to want to have all nice and peaceful relations with violent islamists, but have no interest in doing so with people who are your fellow countrymen and/or religion.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

All of this shows an ignorance of Islam and how its practitioners operate. A healthy number of Muslims don't speak Arabic, yet their only interaction with the Koran is memorizing it in Arabic.

So? There are a healthy number of Christians who can’t read Latin, yet repeat it, nor Hebrew, but repeat it, nor any of the source languages of the Bible. Again, this is a similarity, not a difference between Christianity and Islam. Not a difference.

There are threads within Islam that are truly non-violent, such as the Ahmaddi, but those groups are minorities. The locus' of control within Islam repeatedly uphold Salafist interpretations; and unlike in Christianity there is no room for discussion because "the doors of ijithad" are closed. That is not to say every, or even a majority, of muslims believe their religion is inherently violent, but that is largely because most Muslims aren't particularly religious(as is true of a majority of Christians)...but as religiosity increases, the likelihood that they will support or even engage in violence increases because doing so is in keeping with the life and actions of Muhammad.

Again, 2 billion adherents and an overwhelming majority are non-violent. They don’t hold the tenants that call for violence, purging, stoning, and so on any more than Christians do. You’re judging an entire faith as violent based off of a non-understanding of the faith and a lack of willing to extend them the grace you demand for Christians.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

Wonder if anyone here studied theology professionally or academically….

Sermon on the Mount. Jesus already addressed those issues when he came to fulfill the law. And yes, I’ve read the Bible cover to cover and am well acquainted with it, thank you very much.

Christianity is not an “eye for an eye” religion. It’s about loving and forgiving your enemies.

Again, you know that. I know that. We are Christians. Non-Christians do not.

 

[Fervent]

So? There are a healthy number of Christians who can’t read Latin, yet repeat it, nor Hebrew, but repeat it, nor any of the source languages of the Bible. Again, this is a similarity, not a difference between Christianity and Islam. Not a difference.

Most English speaking Christians read the Bible in English, so you seem to misunderstand what I have stated. A great many Muslims never read any of their religious texts in a language they understand, instead simply memorizing and reciting the Arabic.

Again, 2 billion adherents and an overwhelming majority are non-violent. They don’t hold the tenants that call for violence, purging, stoning, and so on any more than Christians do. You’re judging an entire faith as violent based off of a non-understanding of the faith and a lack of willing to extend them the grace you demand for Christians.

I'm judging a faith based on its sacred texts, not how those who claim to believe it behave. It's not about "grace" for the individuals, but assessing the religions from their own source material.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

It's not simply about being able to explain it, as I said it's not just that violence exists within the Koran. It's that the "best of people" according to Islam embraced the violence when he had the power to, and that the context and proper interpretive framework(where ayah conflict the later ayat abrogates the earlier one) renders the violent verses the final word on the matter. You seem to ignorantly assume that the verses of violence are aberant to the core message of Islam, when in fact outside of groups that add another messianic figure to the mix in the Ahmadiya Islam is consistently interpreted by Muslim authorities to embrace violence.

No, I'm not simply taking verses out of context, but looking at what historic Islamic authorities have said on the matter. It's not just about extremists, when I say "fundamentalist" that is quite different from extremist, it is saying that they are practicing the religion most in keeping with the historic and consistent manner.

Except there's no reason to make such a switch.

No, I'm pointing out that the central figure of Islam, Muhammad, acted far more in line with the terrorists than with those who don't wage war.

The issue is, when a Muslim beheads an infidel they are acting as Muhammad acted. Did Jesus go around shooting people?

Again, I’m not going to belabor the point because I realize the CO section is more a “Christianity is perfect” audience and less one who truly wants to talk about nuances of Christianity and other religions and their redeeming values, overlapping theological beliefs, and meeting followers of said religions via those avenues. I also realize there are some religions that no matter what they do well, a combination of fear and lack of information beyond stereotypes (like Islam), some Christians feel like acknowledging that is somehow a betrayal.

I’ll just say, after an extensive, multi-year deep dive into Islam, all the outs that Christian’s have to wash away the violent, unfavorable parts of the Bible exist for Muslims as well for their faith. Extremism is a problem for both faiths, then the masses who know no better judge the whole based on the few extremists. Again, Islam will be the predominate religion in only a decade or so. If Christianity/Christians don’t at least try to understand, build bridges, and drop the stereotypes and refusal to learn… We will go from being a prominent minority to just an average intolerant, obsolete minority.

 

[Fervent]

Again, I’m not going to belabor the point because I realize the CO section is more a “Christianity is perfect” audience and less one who truly wants to talk about nuances of Christianity and other religions and their redeeming values, overlapping theological beliefs, and meeting followers of said religions via those avenues. I also realize there are some religions that no matter what they do well, a combination of fear and lack of information beyond stereotypes (like Islam), some Christians feel like acknowledging that is somehow a betrayal.

I’ll just say, after an extensive, multi-year deep dive into Islam, all the outs that Christian’s have to wash away the violent, unfavorable parts of the Bible exist for Muslims as well for their faith. Extremism is a problem for both faiths, then the masses who know no better judge the whole based on the few extremists. Again, Islam will be the predominate religion in only a decade or so. If Christianity/Christians don’t at least try to understand, build bridges, and drop the stereotypes and refusal to learn… We will go from being a prominent minority to just an average intolerant, obsolete minority.

There can be no harmony between Christ and Belial. Islam, at its core, is a violent religion. The only way to remove that element is to divorce it from the life of Muhammad and its historic interpretation by its most renowned scholars. Some Muslims are trying to do exactly that by adopting a Koran-only understanding, but doing so renders the Koran unintelligible because there is no context in it just a jumble of disjunctive statements.

As for your comments about Islam being the majority, what Christians need to prepare for in that case is not joining forces or understanding Islam but preparing for life as a dhimmi and preparing to engage in subterfuge.

You keep avoiding addressing my main point as if it isn't there, which is that the "correct" version of Islam is always going to be the one practiced by Muhammad, and anyone with knowledge of the hadith and sira knows that Muhammad was a very evil man who used Islam to satisfy his every evil desire.